Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Airstream Forums > Airstream Community Forums > Clubs, Organizations & Associations > WBCCI Forum
Click Here to Login
Register Vendors FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search Log in

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-17-2005, 06:01 PM   #1
Rivet Master
 
Uberlanders's Avatar
 
1968 26' Overlander
Wenatchee WA , Cape Cod
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 871
Images: 10
Joining a WBCCI club

What are the pro's and con's of joining a club versus being an at large member? My husband told me I needed to ask our new aluminum friends for advice.

It seems that the Inland Washington club is shutting down soon due to lack of membership. Not really sure whether we're in Washington or North Cascades Washington club areas. It seems that we are hours from meetings or gatherings since the WA Unit meets in Lacey. Also couldn't even find a WA Unit web site.

Or should we join the Cape Cod unit since we live in Pocasset during the summer, however we are not sure if we are going to trailer Our Lady of Aluminum out for such a long journey, being its her first summer with us.

What are your thoughts?
__________________
Jim & Kathleen
1968 Overlander - WBCCI #5793
Uberlanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2005, 07:30 PM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
overlander64's Avatar
 
1964 26' Overlander
1978 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
Anna , Illinois
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,718
Images: 194
Send a message via Yahoo to overlander64
Joining a WBCCI club

Greetings Jim and Kathleen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberlanders
What are the pro's and con's of joining a club versus being an at large member? My husband told me I needed to ask our new aluminum friends for advice.

It seems that the Inland Washington club is shutting down soon due to lack of membership. Not really sure whether we're in Washington or North Cascades Washington club areas. It seems that we are hours from meetings or gatherings since the WA Unit meets in Lacey. Also couldn't even find a WA Unit web site.

Or should we join the Cape Cod unit since we live in Pocasset during the summer, however we are not sure if we are going to trailer Our Lady of Aluminum out for such a long journey, being its her first summer with us.

What are your thoughts?
Either method would work. I joined my local Unit just to have ready reference to nearby folks who might answer questions should they arise (this was when I first started Airstreaming in 1995) -- I belong to that same Unit to this day and have a number of very good friends despite the distance to my new home (I am now more than 500 miles from most of their activities).

Depending upon the local Unit involved, it is often a few dollars cheaper, in terms of dues, to belong to a local Unit than it is to be a member at large -- the combination of my WBCCI + Unit dues has consistently been about $5 per year less than WBCCI+At Large fee.

If you don't find a local Unit that appeals to you, a number of VAC members are members of thw WDCU (Washington DC Unit) -- a Unit that was formed primarily by Vintage owners, but open to all Airstreams. You can find the WDCU on the web at: http://www.servintfree.net/wbcci-dc/
There are WDCU members located throughout North America.

Don't let the age of your Overlander disuade you from traveling cross country. As long as the running gear, tires, bearings, and brakes are in good condition a cross-country expedition can be a great experience. The first few cross-country trips in my Overlander were made without a refrigerator, but were among my most memorable.

Good luck with your decision!

Kevin
__________________
Kevin D. Allen
WBCCI (Lifetime Member)/VAC #7864
AIR #827
1964 Overlander International
1978 Argosy Minuet 6.0 Metre
overlander64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2005, 07:42 PM   #3
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
i'm a new member too

hi uberlanders

purchased my first airstream at age 25 (at the first as dealership) and didn't join the wb then, since i didn't want to hang out with other peoples grandparents....but i did always get a kick out of pulling in to an rv camp. the folks were mostly cool, very independent and usually asked me if the real owners were sleeping...while i drove. trading stories with other travelers can bring folks together quickly.....and folks always have questions/comments about airstreams.

as for wb, i always thought the beanies and rallies were cool....seeing all of those tincans in one place....but not cool enough, like sturgis....that i ever wanted to attend one.

now that i'm 50 and buying another new can i've decided to join the wb. i was gonna pay for the membership myself but my dealer pays the dues for the first year.....well i guess i did pay for it....sort of.

i am going with the at large membership while i travel and get to know some of the local chapters. i plan to check out a western washington chapter, some thing in colorado, texas, new mexico, maybe minnesota and maybe something east since i'm originally from d.c.

if i don't find a local chapter that fits, i'll stick with at large or try to become part of a vintage unit....looks like those people have hip rallies.

there are many threads here on the good/bad issues with the wb, tradition, recruitment, relevance and so on. i'm gonna keep an open mind about it now that i've narrowed the age gap.......some.

if you're big on "joining things" and getting right into committees, volunteering and so on a local unit might be the way to go, but if you hope port is fluid or you want to sample some....go with the at large.

as i recall the wb used to have a "free year" membership for people buying their first airstream.....as a used unit. i think they required a copy of the bill of sale and you had to be new to airstreams....not sure if they do this anymore.

ymmv

cheers
2air'
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2005, 10:25 PM   #4
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
The real question is: Why join any club?

Sometimes it is to form strength on a common cause. Sometimes it is to obtain special privileges and discounts. Sometimes it is to create pathways to new friendships.

Friendships can help provide motivation, moral support, and other things that make life much more worthwhile. WBCCI was formed in one sense as an advertising ploy for Airstream. But Wally Byam also thought people buying RV's should use them (else why have the RV?). The commonality of the travel trailer of a specific brand meant that people with common interests were brought together and that formed many good friendships.

"It seems that the Inland Washington club is shutting down soon due to lack of membership."

This is too bad. It means members joined but didn't really. It means the club didn't reach out for new interests, for new members, for growth and change. People got stuck in a rut and forgot the reason they formed together in the first place. When you see talk (complaint) about committees, a pethora of officers, and pomp and circumstance, you are seeing an observation that the club is getting off track - loosing sight of its purpose for being.

The local unit is people that not only share your values in the choice of RV but also your values in terms of a place to live. The activities of a local unit should provide you with a bit more incentive to get your rig out and explore your own region of the country. A lot of folks know more about the next state than they do the next county!

But, if the local unit is doing more lunches than rallies, is doing the same ol' thing year after year, is going to the same places all the time, is dominated by a small clique who are set in their ways, is not seeking out new members, is going pro-forma and doing things by rote, - then it needs members to shake it up and get it back on track. Form a cabal (we did it here!) with some like minded members and re-invigorate the club. Bring it back to what it is there for in the first place.

Why join WBCCI? I really can't say. I don't know what it really gets you these days. But why join a local unit that is a part of the WBCCI? For that I can see a lot of reasons. Since I am anchored here, a local unit provides a good opportunity to meet local folks with similar interests and learn more about where I am. My Grandfather wasn't so anchored yet he still helped groups in Texas, Arizona, California, and Nevada form local WBCCI Units. He had friends all over, participated in rallies of many sizes, yet still spent a good deal of time buddy traveling.

WBCCI has been suffering for quite a while. Part of this is due to the dillution of the Airstream brand. Part is the splitting of demographics. Part is in the splitting of the market between $50k new and $5k vintage. But more important is that that the mission and purpose of the club has been getting fogged. Trying to do anything more than offer an idea or two in such a large organization is about all I can do. I admire those who have the time, the committment, and the wherewithal to participate at the regional and national level. Maybe change will happen but it will be a long slog so my hat is off to those working at that scale.

For me, a local unit is something more my size. I can get involved to try to make the club more healthy, to help find new members, to explore new places, to find new friends, to keep up with old friends. If I don't like the direction something is going, I can work with my friends to help them see what I see and cull their support and ingenuity and creativity to put it back on track.

I just wish more folks had the opportunity - were actually invited with enthusiasm - to join in with a local group of friends and neighbors with similar interests who encouraged them to get the most of their Airstream experience. If its not there, then finding the local unit and joining it is the first step to making it there for others.
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2005, 10:59 PM   #5
Site Team
 
Janet H's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1964 19' Globetrotter
OlyPen , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,936
Images: 101
Join the Oregon Unit. We did - and it's a happening place. They have an unusual number of younger members and more and more events that cater to them.

I am bummed to hear about the Inland WA unit - we joined last year - they cashed our check and we never heard from them again. I offered to do a newsletter - set up a website or anything else that might be useful and no one ever contacted me.....
The oregon unit publishes a great newletter, they have a nifty website and several forum members belong..... just a thought.

Maybe we need an internet/forums unit?
__________________
1964 Globetrotter | 2023 Nissan Armada



AirForums Custom Search
Janet H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2005, 11:34 PM   #6
Contributing Member
 
Pahaska's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County) , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
Images: 4
Attrition

In the less than a year that I have been Region 9 webmaster, we have lost 2 units out of the initial 16. A third is shutting down in July, and a fourth is weak and may not survive. OTOH, our unit is strong and growing.

I think that we will end up with fewer units, but those that survive will be active units that offer interesting activities. Our unit values as members both the International and the Region 9 Presidents. They live 150 miles away, but join us frequently.

We have had a number of folks recently join our unit because they were fed up with either the inactivity or the infighting in their prior units.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
Pahaska is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 06:29 AM   #7
Still Working
 
smily's Avatar
 
1994 36' Classic 36
North Charleston , South Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,686
Images: 19
Its good to be atypical

We here in the south are alive and well. We have grown to an all time high membership, I believe we have a voting strength of about 62. (total membership including affiliates is around 90 Airstreams)
The SCCU has many affiliate (or Associate)members due to the fact we are notorius for being an active, diverse and fun group that rallies at least ten times a year. We even have a Rally for Christmas and we do not have any Luncheons at a restaurant in place of a real rally. We do not typically rally at the same location twice in a year. we have a travel radius of about 200 miles. We go from the east side of the state to the west and we go from the coast to about the middle of the state. Our average attendance is around 25 units per rally. Almost never below 20 units and often around 35 units in attendance.
Our unit has the Region 3 President who is currently running for 3rd Vice Pres International Officer, an International Members Advocate and four of our members are Contributors or Writers / Editors for the Blue Beret including the famous "Phred Sez" (Fredd Ettline) and even more diversified is Renee Ettline, (who wrote two articles the latest edition of the "Airstream Life". See cover story Galax Fiddlers Convention). I write the column "Still Working" which is targeted at the younger Airstreamers who are still working towards retirement.
The Local unit is my recommendation to get a feel for what it is all about and to see the potential of what a unit can be. Try a few on for size and see which one suits your taste.
Not all Local Units are as diversified as the SCCU but they can be with a little breath of fresh air........

See the SCCU website at the link below
smily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 10:43 AM   #8
Mel
Rivet Master
 
Mel's Avatar
 
1967 22' Safari
1960 Caravel
Edmonds , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,445
Hi Jim & Kathleen,

Here is the site for the Washington unit, as well as the only one I could find for North Cascades (you can see their calendar for 1999!) We bought our trailer from some residents of the Land Yacht Harbor - very nice people who invited us to come back whenever we wanted. We also have not decided between Washington unit, North Cascades (which is much closer to us), or at-large. It's not too big of an issue since our trailer isn't ready to roll yet!

http://www.scn.org/%7Ewaunitwb/index.htm

http://members.aol.com/NCW10138/ncw.html

Mel
Mel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 10:45 AM   #9
2 Rivet Member
Airstream Dealer
 
Karyn's Avatar
 
2001 25' Excella
Spokane Valley , Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 61
Exclamation Washington Unit

Don't give up on the Washington unit so fast, you need to try it first.

Their web address is www.waunitwb.com. There is to be a Crab feed on May 5-9, you can call Virginia Scott (360)413-5675 for more info. I've heard Larry Huttle himself sometimes shows up for the Crab Feed!

Usually in the fall there is a Leavenworth rally that would be right in your neck of the woods. Try it, you might like it!! A few hours away should be fun too, Airstreams are built for comfortable travel, a rally is a great excuse.

As a member, they also have Land Yacht Harbor at Lacey WA, where members can stay for a reduced fee, with full hook ups. I believe Porky Pig of this forum spent some time there last season and thought it was a good value.

We just joined and are going to give it a shot, hope you do too. The more the merrier.
Karyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 12:35 PM   #10
Rivet Master
 
Uberlanders's Avatar
 
1968 26' Overlander
Wenatchee WA , Cape Cod
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 871
Images: 10
I think a forum unit sounds great. I read the previous discussion started by Twinkie about the "Joining" thing. The discussion left me a bit confused and muddled. I'm not a joiner persay, I guess you could call me a sucker for traditions, be feel like we need to honor the number and sticker on Our Lady of Aluminum. It is also sad that a piece of America's Travel history is dying because people are stuck in a rut. It is also amazing to read that some of you have joined units that are states away from your place of residence.

As my husband and I were discussing last night, the WBCCI was formed for very much the same reason that this forum started. They, back then, did not have the benefit of the internet or free long distance cell phone use on weekend and evenings. So now that the purpose is being fulfilled on-line less people feel the need to join a club to share information.

Regardless I think we would still like to tap into a local just to see what it is like, so we are aiming for the Crab feed, we will also try to at least visit the Region 1 rally at Scusset Beach since its only a few minutes from our house in MA.

And I can't wait for another forum rally in our region, we are so bummed that we missed it. Is there one in Oregon coming up? It seems that you all would have been a great bunch to weekend with.

Kathleen
__________________
Jim & Kathleen
1968 Overlander - WBCCI #5793
Uberlanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 12:49 PM   #11
2 Rivet Member
 
SharonIvey's Avatar
 
1972 29' Ambassador
Red Oak , Texas
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 74
Try it - What have you got to lose?

My advice, try it what have you got to lose? $50.00 which is ten trips to Starbucks for me.

I've joined the North Texas unit. My Bambi has been undergoing renovations since October. My husband and I are making steady progress and have been having a lot of fun trying new techniques. Yes, we'd expected to be done by now but haven't had the time that we expected and some things have taken a lot longer than we anticipated.

I haven't been to one event. But, I've been assigned a wonderful mentor - Isaac Holmes. He calls and invites me to unit events. He is so happy and upbeat. He never makes me feel guilty when I cannot commit or choose not to attend. He encourages us to "come as we are" - cabinets or no cabinets. :-)

I hope to become more active as soon as my renovations are complete and we feel we've gotten to a liveable stage. Another option, will be for us to drive out to the campsite to meet everyone even when we can't stay over in the Bambi.

A good club meets on a regular basis and makes people feel welcome. A GREAT club enlists someone like Isaac to go out of their way to make new members feel welcome.

Try it...what have you go to lose?

Sharon
SharonIvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 01:06 PM   #12
2 Rivet Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 23
As a member of the Texas Alamo Unit planning to move to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho this fall I find the impending inactivation of the eastern Washington unit very discouraging.
The monthly rallies and dinner meetings here are well attended and fun!
There's a new Airstream dealership in Spokane. Maybe that will stimulate some interest in the inland northwest.
I hope so!
ricksre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 01:26 PM   #13
Cartoon Character
 
Porky Pig's Avatar
 
2004 34' Classic
On The Road , U.S.A.
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 885
Images: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karyn
As a member, they also have Land Yacht Harbor at Lacey WA, where members can stay for a reduced fee, with full hook ups. I believe Porky Pig of this forum spent some time there last season and thought it was a good value.

We just joined and are going to give it a shot, hope you do too. The more the merrier.
Petunia and I spent 5 weeks at the Land Yacht Harbor in Lacey last year. We were going to stay just a few days ... but they sucked us in!

Because we travel fultime .. we joined the WBCCI as Members at Large. But this year when we re-up ... we're considering joining the Washington Unit. Might as well give our dollars to a good local unit.
__________________
Porky

TrailerGypsies.com
WBCCI #3405 — Escapees #80360

I live the life I love and I love the life I live.
-- Willie Dixon
Porky Pig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 01:47 PM   #14
Site Team
 
Janet H's Avatar

 
1964 26' Overlander
1964 19' Globetrotter
OlyPen , Washington
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,936
Images: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberlanders
And I can't wait for another forum rally in our region, we are so bummed that we missed it. Is there one in Oregon coming up? It seems that you all would have been a great bunch to weekend with.

Kathleen
We joined the OR unit for a number of reasons.... The Washington Unit in Lacy is a 4 or 5 hour drive for us and they don't seem to do much stuff in Eastern WA.

The Oregon unit was a better fit - we are close to the OR border and they do events all over the state. Also - THEY ASKED!! This is important. The Washington unit person i spoke with invited me to lacy - and sort of wasn't interested in any other topic. Land Yacht Harbor is a neat place - but I still camp in rural areas, state parks and am not interested in KOA type accomadations. The OR unit - kinda roams the state.

I would suggest that you could join more than one unit. The second unit you join will be cheap - just the local dues portion - usually around $10.00. See what works for you - there are good 'streamers everywhere - you can always be a guest at other units rallies.

The Oregon Unit has a web site as well: http://www.wbcci-or.org/ most of the content is in the newsletters.

I think there is room for an eastern WA unit - can we stage an Inland WA Unit takeover?
__________________
1964 Globetrotter | 2023 Nissan Armada



AirForums Custom Search
Janet H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 06:28 PM   #15
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,255
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
I think you should takeover the Inland unit. Sounds like there won't be much resistance! Then I'll come join you guys
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 06:39 PM   #16
Just a member
 
thenewkid64's Avatar
 
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz , Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
Images: 21
Send a message via AIM to thenewkid64 Send a message via Yahoo to thenewkid64
Just an FYI.

The IBT over the winter (2005) approved a change in the rules to charter a new unit. All you need is 5 member numbers to apply for a unit charter If I remember correctly. If it is not 5 then it is 10. It used to be 15.

To request a charter application you would need to contact your region president.
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
-------------------------
1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato


thenewkid64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 06:58 PM   #17
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,255
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
Isn't there also something about every unit has to sponsor a caravan or national rally, or something like that? As I've understood in the past that requirement has kept youth/working age units from forming, as working people often don't have time for caravans or long rallys.
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 07:07 PM   #18
Rivet Master
 
Uberlanders's Avatar
 
1968 26' Overlander
Wenatchee WA , Cape Cod
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 871
Images: 10
Cool

Well we could call it the Central Washington Unit, our rally could be at the Wings & Wheels Festival which takes place in East Wenatchee. They have a car show, a trick motorcycle drill team called the Flying Causaks performs, they have a small parade, etc. I think its the 1st or 2nd weekend in October. The car show usually has a couple of Teardrop trailers, we could join the troop on display. I know one of the people on the committee, our sister city in Japan usually bring a group of people too. There is also Apple Blossom Festival, but that can be crazy insane with cruising etc. Makes it impossible to get through town, but the parade is great. And our local theatre usually puts on a great musical at the time. This is the first year in a long time, that I'm not in it.

Anyway....now I've done it, this happens at school too, I give my bright idea, then end up heading up a committee.
__________________
Jim & Kathleen
1968 Overlander - WBCCI #5793
Uberlanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 07:40 PM   #19
Just a member
 
thenewkid64's Avatar
 
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz , Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
Images: 21
Send a message via AIM to thenewkid64 Send a message via Yahoo to thenewkid64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefrobrts
Isn't there also something about every unit has to sponsor a caravan or national rally, or something like that? As I've understood in the past that requirement has kept youth/working age units from forming, as working people often don't have time for caravans or long rallys.
Nope.

You need to have at least a few rallies, 2 business meetings and have an executive board. This along with enough members to support the unit and you can have a unit.

I have the main WBCCI "blue book" on CD around here somewhere. I will verify this, but there are no requirements to do either a caravan or national rally.

One way to look at it is that units fading away and new ones springing up is a normal progression. Many people do not want to embrace change, so you need to decide how important it is to you and other like you to have a unit that epitomizes your desires for the club. If your unit works (The SCCU comes to mind) then it will flourish. If it does not, then it may fade away as well.
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
-------------------------
1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome

Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato


thenewkid64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2005, 11:24 PM   #20
Moderator
 
Stefrobrts's Avatar

 
1968 17' Caravel
Battle Ground , Washington
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,255
Images: 50
Blog Entries: 1
Seriously, it does take a lot of work to make a club happen. I'm glad the OR unit is full of retired folks who can take on these duties. They really take great pride in putting together activities and entertainment for the rallys, and try to outdo each other each year. It might not all be to my taste, but I have to hand it to them, it's a lot of work and they do a great job.

Pick a unit, if you don't like it, pick another one next year. Try to make it to a couple rallys. I only make it to one or two rallys a year, but the people I meet make it all worthwhile. If you find a group that is warm and welcoming, you'll look forward to travelling a bit to join up with them when you can.
__________________
Stephanie




Stefrobrts is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WBCCI Membership for free thenewkid64 WBCCI Forum 17 05-01-2011 10:17 PM
Motorhome club name ViewRVs Airstream Motorhome Forums 9 06-09-2009 07:18 PM
WBCCI and local Units Stougard WBCCI Forum 54 02-28-2006 08:46 AM
WBCCI family/children/pet friendly? ViewRVs WBCCI Forum 66 01-08-2006 07:34 PM
WBCCI Survey smily WBCCI Forum 33 11-13-2005 09:08 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.