Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-13-2006, 04:52 PM   #85
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
i've not met ANYONE who is a mal or was once a mal, that fits this description....
whoops. look like I hit a button. I suggest a more careful reading of what I said. I tried to qualify the population I was describing to only those MAL's expressing defined behavior. Anyone reading over these forums will see what I am describing without having to use too much imagination, I think.

Quote:
but no one, at no time, in no space, or in any media informs potential mals that they will not have voting rights or other limited membership rights.
I do not agree with the absolute "no one" but I do agree that many people join organizations without learning about what they are doing. I will even agree that some are mislead and given wrong information in regards to WBCCI and membership. (hey, I read governance documents before I join, doesn't everybody? ;-) )

I also know that the Constitution and Bylaws are on the web and clearly identify membership classes and privileges. See
http://wbcci.org/index.cfm?pageSRC=Membership
but the kicker is not clear. It is in the Constitution at
http://wbcci.org/documents/ACF2154.pdf
article VI sec 3 on page 4 which says MAL get all benefits and privileges except right to vote or hold office in the International, Regionals, Units, or Intra Clubs (i.e. governance participation).

What you highlight is the result of one of the persistent underlying problems in WBCCI. The information is there but you have to work to get it. The result is that there is a lot of wrong information being offered and people can receive bad information. This leads to a lot of friction and bad feelings.

There has been a start on fixing this problem in that it is now possible to find the Constitution and Bylaws on the web (it used to be secret privileged information kept only by the PTB) and it is in an open format (used to be MS Word files and is now PDF). There is yet a long ways to go to squash myths and get everyone on the same track to provide a consistent and accurate story.

I also find some of the other treatment described despicable and am doing my part to make sure it is enshrined in a WBCCI hall of shame. At Boise in '98 I was just amazed (and wrote a white paper with suggestions). At Salem I decided to start taking names and recording behavior. There is a need for decorum and a respect for the perpetrators (who are usually well meaning but just don't seem to get it) but it is also getting to be time to raise the stakes and being a bit less polite in feedback provided. This is one of five revolutions with flames being fanned and I do hope that constructive change starts coming at a quicker pace.

Fly that Jolly Roger!
__________________

__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #86
2 Rivet Member
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Cincinnati , Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 49
there is nothing new under the sun...

I've treaded through 7 pages of chat about whether or not to "be a part of" the Club. It seems to me that the issues WBCCI faces aren't any different from any other national organization with local chapters.

My husband and I have been members of the Mercedes-Benz Club of America for years. It has a national office and local units and the same political nonsense. When Dave was Pres of our local chapter and I published the newsletter, we ignored the national stuff and focused solely on local events. We had lots of fun, made great friends and when we burned out (because everyone does), we handed it off to someone else. We show up for functions when we can and it's all good. We pay our dues, even though we don't participate much or even vote. They seem steep but it's the price of admission and for now, that's okay with us.

Reality is: clubs require members to pay dues. If you don't want to pay dues, then don't join. If you don't like the dues structure, then get active and change it or vote for someone who will. If you don't have voting rights, then there is no point in being a member. It seems like there are many people who would like to see those in control of the WBCCI ousted. Okay -- choose one of the prescribed paths to power and go for it. Of course, this means you must join a unit and work to gain a national position. And that makes you one of Them, doesn't it?

All this angst and teeth-gnashing seems to overshadow the whole point of it all: the Cameraderie. We become members of clubs to be part of a larger group. If the WBCCI doesn't do that for you, then work to change it or find a different group. Truly, it's that simple.

Dave and I have considered joining the WBCCI (our camper has big red numbers on it already), but we hesitate because we don't want to get sucked into the vortex of controversy. Been there and done that. We just want to take our "Towster" to a tree-lined spot, open the canopy (and a beer) and relax. Please let me know when a group of Airstreamers near Cincinnati wants to caravan someplace fun so we can join them -- regardless of our Club status.

Thanks for listening to a different voice .
__________________

__________________
Dave, Pam and Asa
Really old house + really new camper = good living

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." Grouco Marx
daveandpamz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 05:12 PM   #87
Rivet Master
 
Airstream25's Avatar
 
1995 25' Excella
1961 26' Overlander
1982 34' Limited
Albuquerque , New Mexico
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 737
Images: 21
Send a message via Skype™ to Airstream25
a rally can be put together just by forum discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
It sounds really nice to suggest a rally can be put together by just a bit of forum discussion. This works but only up to a point.

Somebody has to keep track of who is going.
Somebody has to make reservations.
Somebody has to scout the site.
The group has to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't and what to do if someone violates the standards.
Someone needs to manage funds and pay bills.

This all requires governance and management and that means organization.
I think the "governance and management and organization" are the things to be minimized.

Regarding your points above;
1. The Forum itself has a mechanism for people to self sign up.
2. Reservations can be the responsibility of the indiviuals attending.
3. Yes, the person proposing the forum rally would have to scout the site.
4. As we go thru life, we all get feedback from those around us as to what is acceptable or not. Nothing different with a rally.
5. Everyone pays their own bills individually, no central funds manager.

As I see it, all the person proposing a Forums Rally needs to do is;
  • Scout a desireable site
  • Pick a date
  • Post the date, site, site description & site contact info on the Forums. Add comments about a pot luck meal, booze, etc.
  • Attend
If the site is a boondock then all the financial issues go away.
__________________
Airstream25
KE5CKG on 2 meters
AIR #10274
Airstream25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 05:18 PM   #88
2 Rivet Member
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Cincinnati , Ohio
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 49
If I read correctly that you are President, when my husband gave up running the local chapter of the Mercedes-Benz Club, he got a badge that said "Past Potentate". You might like that, someday...
__________________
Dave, Pam and Asa
Really old house + really new camper = good living

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." Grouco Marx
daveandpamz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 08:25 PM   #89
Rivet Master
 
rgesch's Avatar
 
1956 26' Cruiser/Overlander
1967 17' Caravel
Newport , New Hampshire
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,058
Images: 18
Hear Ye Fellow MAL Contents

Well Now I'm sure I'm in the wrong Unit! I was reading the Units Consitution and Objectives. I can bore you all by writing it or you can pull your own Unit objectives and read for yourself as all of our Constitutions and ByLaws are basically the same.

It is one great big sentence that says this non-profit organization is to encourage unit participation, development of the Unit, fraternization, encourage safe driving, assist in improving the general welfare of the rec. vehicle public through, a strong organization for the good will toward rec. vehicle travel, cooperate in with other organizations to elevate the standards and ethics of various groups to disseminate information of an advisory and educational nature, advise and recommend legislation blah, blah,blah,blah, blah.

Not one word about fun, camping, or anything else that translates into a good time for all.

Good Grief no wonder we are in trouble! This long winded baloney indicates our current objective is to perpetuate our pompous, exclusive, all seeing all knowing superiority because we own Airstreams????????

I am in the wrong organization! Thank god on this "long strange trip" I have met the wonderful people I have.

I don't know about anyone else but that bunch of baloney isn't my objectve. My objective is to travel as much as I can, meet as many people as I can and have as much fun doing it as I can.

Maybe that's where we have to start to change this club. A collective shared vison of NEW OBJECTIVES! FUN FUN FUN It's a camping club for goodness sake!
__________________
rgesch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 08:51 PM   #90
Rivet Master
 
clancy_boy's Avatar
 
2003 22' International CCD
Kiln , Mississippi
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,780
Images: 8
MAL Fits

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
hi bryan and others......

i've not met ANYONE who is a mal or was once a mal, that fits this description....

-many use this route as the quickest club entry,
-some use this route because they don't have a local unit that is close enough or that they are familiar with......
--and i'm sure there are other well intended reasons.....folks choose mal...

cheers
2air'
These are it exactly, some just have unpredictable jobs and lifstyles and cannot commit to an organization but still wish to be a part of it when they can. I would hate to miss an oppertunity to meet some of you because I was not a WBCCI member and missed a great rally that fit my schedule. now that I am a member and have sent off my dues to the VAC I will see you soon. Put faces to Forum Names, what an idea.
__________________
Michael & Tina with Layla and Preston BZ
The family has grown.
2003 22' INTERNATIONAL CCD
clancy_boy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 09:19 PM   #91
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
I think the "governance and management and organization" are the things to be minimized.
I do to. But it is idealistic and unrealistic to think that any relationship between human beings does not need management and governance. I think it also false to presume that WBCCI seeks other than minimizing governance for what it sees as the activities it needs to pursue to forward its objectives. As we just recently witnessed, it is a membership run organization and not an oligarchy.

Quote:
"This long winded baloney indicates our current objective is to perpetuate our pompous, exclusive, all seeing all knowing superiority because we own Airstreams???????? ... I am in the wrong organization! Thank god on this "long strange trip" I have met the wonderful people I have.
I agree. From what you are saying you probably need to join a college fraternity and not the WBCCI.

Also please look at what you are calling baloney: encouraging fraternization, groups, safe driving, good will, and legislation favorable to RVing, - I see nothing in that list that is "pompous, exclusive," etc.

Something brought those "wonderful people" you met to a common interest. Fun is greatly increased when shared. RVing is much more fun when it is safer and the legal environment doesn't interfere more than necessary. It is much more fun when there is good will and shouting "baloney" as a judgment of others' ideas is inhibited and thinking is done before spouting off. Most folks have fun when they are helping others - whether with their Airstream or in contributing to a community effort such as is done at every I'Rally and at many other WBCCI events.

Quote:
All this angst and teeth-gnashing seems to overshadow the whole point of it all: the Cameraderie
What is sad to me is that Dave and Pam and Asa see this shouting of "baloney" and the parading of faults and problems and have reservations about coming on board. What we need to do is to highlight those other threads, those where people have discovered other "wonderful people" at rallies and other WBCCI events. Where people have learned new things, had new experiences, made new friends, solved old problems - all because the club broadened their experience.

There will be politics anytime you get people together trying to figure out how to do something in common. Fortunately, with the WBCCI you can select your level of involvement. Join MAL and pick and choose events to attend and stay out of the governance stuff. Join a Unit but stay in the background and just enjoy experiences with a few friends. Or join a Unit and get involved to make changes and fix things. Or create your own Unit and show everyone else how it should be done by example. (been there, done that, doing it now)

What I think we don't need are accusations, insults, slander, bad mouthing, in your face activities, and other behavior that is directly analogous to what it is about WBCCI that stimulates the complaint, the very essence of "pompous, exclusive, all seeing" behavior with the only virtue its ours and not theirs.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 09:23 PM   #92
Rivet Master
 
Alumaholic's Avatar

 
1966 24' Tradewind
Albuquerque , New Mexico
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,751
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesch
Well Now I'm sure I'm in the wrong Unit! I was reading the Units Consitution and Objectives. I can bore you all by writing it or you can pull your own Unit objectives and read for yourself as all of our Constitutions and ByLaws are basically the same.


Not one word about fun, camping, or anything else that translates into a good time for all.

Good Grief no wonder we are in trouble! This long winded baloney indicates our current objective is to perpetuate our pompous, exclusive, all seeing all knowing superiority because we own Airstreams????????

I am in the wrong organization! Thank god on this "long strange trip" I have met the wonderful people I have.

I don't know about anyone else but that bunch of baloney isn't my objectve. My objective is to travel as much as I can, meet as many people as I can and have as much fun doing it as I can.

Maybe that's where we have to start to change this club. A collective shared vison of NEW OBJECTIVES! FUN FUN FUN It's a camping club for goodness sake!
Here are the objectives in the Constitution and Bylaws that I drafting for a Unit of New Mexico MAL Contents:
  • To routinely conduct outings (campouts and caravans) of the Unit membership for the purpose of visiting places of scenic beauty, geological interest, or historical significance with a minimum amount of organization and structure;
  • To encourage and assist fellow Airstream enthusiasts, within and without the Unit, in the selection, purchase, maintenance, restoration, and renovation of Airstream products of all ages;
  • To involve interested non-Airstream owners in Unit activities so as to disseminate information and encourage Airstream ownership;
  • To encourage Airstream product owners not actively involved in WBCCI activities to participate in Unit activities with the goal of Unit membership;
  • To encourage the fun, safe and enjoyable operation of Airstream products with other Airstream enthusiasts;
  • To coordinate with, and participate in where practical, other Units, Regions and International activities;
  • To disseminate relevant information of an educational or advisory that may be of value to its members;
  • To encourage government and private agencies to continue upgrading the quantity and quality of public and private recreational vehicle parks and facilities.
What do you think?
__________________
Ken L
1966 Tradewind 24
2007Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax/Allison
Four Corners Unit WBCCI #8654
Alumaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 09:40 PM   #93
Rivet Master
 
maxandgeorgia's Avatar
 
1995 30' Limited
Ashland , Missouri
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,610
Looks good to me, but perhaps also include places of recreational-sport activitiy in your first item because that kayaking, canoeing, fishing, hiking, and so on are high on many campers' fun list. So, is this a unit that is going to really take form? ~G
__________________
maxandgeorgia
1995 Airstream Classic Limited 30' ~ Gypsy
1978 Argosy Minuet, 6.0~Minnie/GPZWGN
Chev Silverado 2500HD Duramax/Allison, 4X4, Crew Cab
WBCCI #5013 AIR #2908
WDCU
Go, Mizzou...Tigers on the prowl!
maxandgeorgia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 09:47 PM   #94
Rivet Master
 
Alumaholic's Avatar

 
1966 24' Tradewind
Albuquerque , New Mexico
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,751
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxandgeorgia
So, is this a unit that is going to really take form? ~G
I'm working on it! Having tried to participate and change from within and having failed miserably, I'll see if I can find enough fellow MAL contents to change from without. Thanks for the great suggestion about adding recreational destinations.
__________________
Ken L
1966 Tradewind 24
2007Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax/Allison
Four Corners Unit WBCCI #8654
Alumaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2006, 11:08 PM   #95
_
 
. , .
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 8,812
ok
dokie
fellow and
fellowette
mal contents......

i like what you are writing kelvan
but i also agree with what airstream25 is offering as well......
he appears to be the membership chair for your region?
do you folks know each other?
and get along? or not....
it is know of my biz...
that's why i'm asking....


anyway, i do more and more think the forums provides us with the best vehicle for a free thinkers unit......and the forum rallies are fun....perhaps we need a thread or subheading where we can coax along a 'club forum' sort of thing....

one problem with that is many of us would still like a tie to the wb so unless we could get the forums unit formal wally status.....

now for what you've written so far kelvan......
so SIGN ME UP!
and coming from a wordy guy.....
each of those points get better as they get shorter.....
fewer words, yet no vagueness....

so for example the 1st point might be......

"To conduct outings (campouts and caravans) of the Unit membership, visiting great places for fun and fellowship with a minimum of direct organization or supervision."

my point being, get all the bullets short like #5,6 and 7........yes we will bike, canoe, photo, drink, meditate, eat and so on.....and yes the rallies and caravans will be to historic, beautiful places, but we might also go to simple spots or on quiet trips....but all this doesn't need to be said....per say......

again i like it......and short, clear and inclusive will make the objective/constitution and what not more powerful.....edits are hard...but at the end.....so 'em how great simple can be....

there might be an additional page that expands on the notion of 'great places and fun' so the ideas maxandgeorgia are suggesting get listed.....i like all of those things too....


now what about the hat?


cheers
2air'
__________________
all of the true things that i am about to tell you are shameless lies. l.b.j.

we are here on earth to fart around. don't let anybody tell you any different. k.v.
2airishuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2006, 06:28 AM   #96
Rivet Master
 
yukionna's Avatar
 
Massachusetts
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1964 17' Bambi II
Posts: 4,278
Images: 18
Send a message via Yahoo to yukionna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
....but it is also getting to be time to raise the stakes and being a bit less polite in feedback provided...
Nooooooooo! Leipper, noooooooooo! [Note…I'm trying to sound like “Mr. Bill” from earlier episodes of SNL!]

If you do that, then you will be like THEM...lack of civility! I personally think attacking the problem, not the person, is always the best recourse of action. As you already indicated, “they mean well”, so attacking the problem will reveal the core of the problem which usually has nothing to do with the individual person.

__________________
WBCCI Region One

Attitude is the only difference between ordeal and adventure
yukionna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2006, 07:05 AM   #97
Rivet Master
 
dscluchfc's Avatar
 
1984 31' Excella
Abernathy , Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by klevan
Here are the objectives in the Constitution and Bylaws that I drafting for a Unit of New Mexico MAL Contents:
  • To routinely conduct outings (campouts and caravans) of the Unit membership for the purpose of visiting places of scenic beauty, geological interest, or historical significance with a minimum amount of organization and structure;
  • To encourage and assist fellow Airstream enthusiasts, within and without the Unit, in the selection, purchase, maintenance, restoration, and renovation of Airstream products of all ages;
  • To involve interested non-Airstream owners in Unit activities so as to disseminate information and encourage Airstream ownership;
  • To encourage Airstream product owners not actively involved in WBCCI activities to participate in Unit activities with the goal of Unit membership;
  • To encourage the fun, safe and enjoyable operation of Airstream products with other Airstream enthusiasts;
  • To coordinate with, and participate in where practical, other Units, Regions and International activities;
  • To disseminate relevant information of an educational or advisory that may be of value to its members;
  • To encourage government and private agencies to continue upgrading the quantity and quality of public and private recreational vehicle parks and facilities.
What do you think?
Looks like by-laws and politics to me.
I spent near 20 years dealing with a political action committee, by-laws, meetings, group politics, ad naseaum....
I bought an Airstream because it is better construction, has great resale, and has a cult like mystique that interests others.
I have not joined the Lubbock TX unit because it is a bunch that is predominately over 70, mired in the past and local politics of personalities, and is looking for someone 20 years younger to indoctrinate into doing things THEIR way..."the way they've always been done"....without them having to do it.
Me: NOT INTERESTED.
I want to go places, see things, meet interesting people and not be bothered with all that MAL-arky.
If that means being an INDEPENDENT, and not a member of WBCCI in any way...so be it.
Ken, just reading your "by-laws" above made my head hurt and made me think...how is this different than what already exists?
More rules, more politics, more committees.....
__________________
David
TAC # TX-18

AIR # 410
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dsphotoscapes
dscluchfc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2006, 08:18 AM   #98
Rivet Master
 
LuminumTraila's Avatar
 
2006 19' Safari SE
NW of Boston , Massachusetts
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 987
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgesch
I am in the wrong organization! Thank god on this "long strange trip" I have met the wonderful people I have.

I don't know about anyone else but that bunch of baloney isn't my objectve. My objective is to travel as much as I can, meet as many people as I can and have as much fun doing it as I can.

Maybe that's where we have to start to change this club. A collective shared vison of NEW OBJECTIVES! FUN FUN FUN It's a camping club for goodness sake!
It might take a while to bring your unit around, but it's worth everything you're putting into it just to save it for future members and those who've joined but aren't attending because some of the problems you describe. My hat's off to you for trying to work things out. It's a lot for a volunteer. I think you mentioned when I last saw you that you didn't join WBCCI because you were looking for another job. Amen to that!

Maybe some of us in Region 1 can help since there are a few of us who are thinking the same. Something like a Region 1/Forums/Just Camping Club under the WBCCI umbrella, and without all the baloney. (Gosh, I just love baloney when it's fried. ) I wonder if there's any mechanism for that in place, or if we would have to create one. I'm thinking of something that would allow us to keep our unit membership, voting rights, etc., and still gather informally with members of our unit and other units with WBCCI sanctioning for insurance purposes, etc. (Unit membership with MALpractice insurance? )
__________________

__________________
Doug & Jamie, AIR #650
LuminumTraila is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.