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LI Pets · 08-26-2008, 06:29 AM

I call for the reinstatement of Bob Thompson and the discontinuance of any action against Leo Garvey.

All they allegedly did was express their opinions

, nothing they stated was an untruth, libelous or slander.

Various governing, controlling, or otherwise powerful bodies ( in this instance the IBT/WBCCI ) in many places around the world, have attempted to change the opinion of the public or others by taking action that allegedly disadvantages one side of the argument.

This attempt to assert some form of control through control of discourse has a long history.

Many consider these attempts at controlling debate to be attacks on free speech.

Freedom of speech is crucial in any democracy, because open discussions of elected board members are essential for members to make informed decisions during elections. It is through speech that this clubs members can influence the WBCCI/IBT's choice of policies.

When Bob Thompson and Leo Garvey refrain from voicing their discontent because they fear retribution, the IBT/WBCCI governing body can no longer be responsive to them, thus it is less accountable for its actions.

Defenders of free speech often allege that this is the main reason why governments suppress free speech – to avoid accountability.

A classic argument for protecting freedom of speech as a fundamental right is that it is essential for the discovery of truth.

It's very strange that these are the two individuals that ran for office off the floor at the IBT are now being booted by the same individual going on a witch hunt Jim Franklin.

Jim are you aware of their or our right of free speech and how you are doing doing more harm to promote disharmony and ill will in this club than anyone could imagine?

Can a member file a grievance against the past IP?

.

**moosetags** · 08-26-2008, 06:39 AM

Bob, am I reading the poll correctly? If I support Bob and Leo, I should refrain from voting.

Brian

LI Pets · 08-26-2008, 06:44 AM

Brian, I saw that it's not correct, can a mod please correct the poll it should be yes or no.

**moosetags** · 08-26-2008, 06:49 AM

Bob- I just changed the poll. Is this what you wanted?

Brian

Nuvite-F · 08-26-2008, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LI Pets

Can a member file a grievance against the past IP?

Yes. For example, see here:

SUSPENDED!! Friends RALLY for Bob!

eubank · 08-26-2008, 07:27 AM

We already have a thread on this topic, and the results there have been unequivocal. What's the point of having a poll?

Lynn

byamcaravanner · 08-26-2008, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poll

Should Bob Thompson and Leo Garvey be suspended for expressing their opinions ?

Is this the stated reason for the suspension? It would certainly be useful to hear the IBT's explanation of why they have taken this action.

My answer to the above question is no... but I think it's likely that the reason stated by the IBT is not as indicated above.

LI Pets · 08-26-2008, 09:17 AM

I believe their reason was that the comments "promoted disharmony and ill will."

byamcaravanner · 08-26-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LI Pets

I believe their reason was that the comments "promoted disharmony and ill will."

...and the offending comments contained in this letter?

pmclemore · 08-26-2008, 09:49 AM

My first thought was to wonder why a camping club needed a disciplinary body. As I reflected, I can see cases where if a member abused other members - verbally or physically. Or disrupted the business of the organization by refusing to heed the chair's decisions during meetings. Perhaps a few other serious offenses.

After reading the letter, it certainly is not one which I would have liked to receive - if I were an officer on the receiving end. However unless the author insisted on reading it during a business meeting (and disrupting - see above) then I do not see where discipline is warranted.

One of the little pleasures of elected leadership is the ability to decide what you're going to deal with. In my humble opinion, the officers should have just balled it up and thrown it away if they chose to. Nothing in the charter demands a response to a letter of that sort. Whether his points had merit or not.

I am disappointed with our officers' action - it seems to me like an unnecessary abuse of power.

Pat

Beginner · 08-26-2008, 10:43 AM

I have the dues notification on my dining room table.
What if all who feel Bob and Leo were the singled out for their opinions withhold their dues for a month or a year and share in their suspensioin would get anyones attention?
Just a thought.
Beginner

pmclemore · 08-26-2008, 10:52 AM

Beginner,

My dues notice arrived as well. The only decision I've made so far is not to re-enlist as a MAL. I've been thinking of joining one of the non-traditional units such as WDCU or FCU.

I must say, however, that I really liked Carole Bell's quoted response to the suggestion that perhaps all the folks who are dissatisfied should take their show and hit the road. I am considering whether perhaps I should give our Tidewater unit an honest try...

Pat

**moosetags** · 08-26-2008, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beginner

I have the dues notification on my dining room table.
What if all who feel Bob and Leo were the singled out for their opinions withhold their dues for a month or a year and share in their suspensioin would get anyones attention?
Just a thought.
Beginner

It probably would get their attention, but I'm afraid that the IBT may look at it as a good thing because they would be getting rid of more trouble makers.

I, for one, will stay in the WBCCI so that I can voice my opinion as a dues-paying member.

Brian

Mikethefixit · 08-26-2008, 01:16 PM

Just my 2 cents which aint woff much, but I was considering Joining. BUT if thats the way the organization is run I want no part of it. Brian I really really think if everyone that is dissatisfied with the Infringment upon free speech would keep their dues at home,would speak MANY MORE WORDS that you can. They will just tell you to SHUT UP AND SIT, U ARE OUT OF ORDER.
They don't want the membership to know anything. They don't want to hear any ideas .They just want to keep U all mindless robots and to follow what ever they say.
My 2 cents and I'm stickin to it.

Goin camping · 08-26-2008, 01:29 PM

Mikethefixit,

Here's the dilema many members face. Yes the International level folks can be very trying and as offputting as they can be. The Units many of us belong to are so much fun that it's hard to think about leaving the Unit to spite the International.

ronstory · 08-26-2008, 01:33 PM

It's interesting. I had a mentor when I first joined my present employer. He was a wealth of practical wisdom. One of thing he drilled in to my rather thick head was (and I paraphase) "... feedback from others is a gift. You may not like the feedback but the fact they took the time to talk to you about it or write it down is something to think about because they are usually not alone in their observations"

I've tried to adpopt that approach (not always successfully

) and it's helped in my career and life.

I would not have enjoyed being the recipient of Bob's letter, but it would have made me think about how many others feel the same way but chose not to tell me. Then it would be time to do some descrete inquiries from from other and see if my head was really up my a$$.

It's happened before... it will again and all I can hope is to learn and reduce the frequency of insertion. LOL

YMMV

2airishuman · 08-26-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eubank

... What's the point of having a poll?....

the point of a poll or yet another thread on this issue is to riddle the forums with this drivel...

continuing to HOPE that a few newbies will buy a TICKET, and board this train WRECK.

a couple of years ago, when the first page here was 90% wb' GAME THREADS...

some of us suggested leo and company START A NEW WEBSITE for this stuff...

and they did. it was a good thing and continues today.

VERY quickly things here got back to camping, repairs and axle fights.

but as the club continues to LOSE RELAVANCE to the average 'streamer, so too has the 'save' site...

SO these TOTALLY TRIVIAL recent chapters of the recurring wb' novel get plastered here again.

i've got NO fondness for ANY of the wb' bobblehead and have often suggested they ALL need to go...

but, 65gt COMPLAINED REPEATEDLY on his website about a certain nw wb' unit....

that included a story about a FORUM rally in their newsletter....

""""the wb units have no place covering airforum events in wb materials...."""

""""the forums are the ANTICLUB,

we shouldn't be giving our members info about their events, which COMPETE with ours.....""""

and so on. he went ON AND ON for a full thread on s'wally, about this evil place, airforums...

while others disagreed with him, his posts DID reveal a LOT about his core strategy....

SO i find it ironic, poetic and goose4gander, that the crying comes here now again.

see it's OK for wb' ladder climbers to use THESE forums to BROADCAST these FLOPS from the DYING FISH...

but a crime when a fun camping event NOT associated with the FISH, gets a little play in the unit newsletter....

so MY VOTE is YES SUSPEND "bob and leo"....

in fact SUSPEND THEM ALL FOR A YEAR!

that's right, every fakely elected officer in the wb' should be suspended for awhile...

ne1 with a title, ne1 with a rule book, ne1 with an organizational chart, ne1 with a beret,

AND NE1 who wants to VOTE on anything...

because EVERYONE with rank, IS RANK...

try 1 year with JUST members, MAKE everyone a MAL one year

cheers
2air'

jimmini · 08-26-2008, 01:49 PM

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another,reson and force.If you want me to do something for you,you have a choice of either convncing me via argument or force.Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories,without exception.reason or force that it.
In a truly moral and civilized society,people exclusiveily interact through persuasion,force has no place as a valid method of social interaction.

Bob and Leo used peruasion,WBCCI used force.

And thats the honky tonk truth.

wheel interested · 08-26-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

try 1 year with JUST members, MAKE everyone a MAL one year

cheers
2air'

I like it!

Think of all the monies that will not be needed. We could skip indexes, BBs, and dues for a year too, maybe have something up online that volunteers (the free kind of volunteers) upload for us to read without cost. Then all we have to do is assemble, pay our own way, go camping, and have fun. It works for the forums now doesn't it?

No need for rules and business meetings or elections, it's all pretty simple, 1 voice for each person and don't even need to write that down to figure it out or remember what's right.

Jimmini has it right too.

Mikethefixit · 08-26-2008, 02:03 PM

Goin Campin
The problem is the international seems to be takin all the fun out of campin, and it rolls down hill to the locals units and takes their fun away also from all the hate and discontent. I know the local units can be fun ,I have camped with WBCCI people they are great.
I really don't think Wally meant it to be like this.
I agree wiff 2air, Suspend anyone wiff a title for one yr. Get some forward thinking young people in the drivers seat and see where this bus goes.I know that don't sound right cause Im old but the young ones are the future of the orginzation.