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Old 04-10-2006, 01:03 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by chuck
hey, not a "position"...just throwin it out there for discussion
oops -- thought it sounded like you were taking up a position. Sorry 'bout that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
just saying that this was perhaps by design. club officers DO have to make that kind of commitment.
Maybe. It's a bit short-sighted of a club to set up voting rules to exclude members from voting based solely on commitment to a particular unit. What's the point of accepting their membership dues and not giving them voting rights for club-wide issues?

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Originally Posted by chuck
well, no, of course not. But, it may be that the former is less common than the latter. I don't think "perfection" can be achieved, here. It would'nt be practical for every single person to cast a vote on every single issue, for example. its why we live in a democratic republic, and not a "pure democracy". It simply wouldn't be practical.
I don't expect perfection (who does?), but an attempt at fairness would be good. Even in our democratic republic, those who can't be at the polls on election day can file an absentee ballot.

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Originally Posted by chuck
I don't think this is a "unit" thing; I'm assuming (maybe dangerously) that this system is club-wide perhaps not. But anyway, I don't think its that the club "desires" a certain type of member any more than any other type; just that the level of influence is relflected in the level of participation.
My understanding is that how the unit votes is up to the unit's executive board to decide. (See Shari's post here: http://www.airforums.com/forum...1-post193.html) The Denver unit has decided to do a mail ballot, and I think I read that the Washington unit (there may be others) has also decided to go with a mail ballot this year to allow more members to vote on the name change issue.
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Old 04-10-2006, 01:43 PM   #44
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It's a bit short-sighted of a club to set up voting rules to exclude members from voting based solely on commitment to a particular unit. What's the point of accepting their membership dues and not giving them voting rights for club-wide issues?
I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order. A MAL pays the same amount of dues as members in local units and even higher than some local units. A MAL actually has more money going towards the international dues. In the past collecting a vote for a MAL may have been a problem or the decision may simply have been made on the basis that a MAL would not involved at any local level. But all club business is not limited to the local unit level and with internet connectivity there should be no reason not to make way to accommodate them now for international matters. The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration. One should not assume a lack of committment on the part of a MAL but rather consider the committment being placed at the international level. Many can be actively attending and participating in state and International rallies. Some may not be in line with home based attendance of luncheons, meetings and other functions.

Quote:
My understanding is that how the unit votes is up to the unit's executive board to decide. (See Shari's post here: http://www.airforums.com/forum...1-post193.html) The Denver unit has decided to do a mail ballot, and I think I read that the Washington unit (there may be others) has also decided to go with a mail ballot this year to allow more members to vote on the name change issue.
I was very pleased to receive an e-mail from our local unit president that Metro-Detroit will also be receiving mail ballots and information on the voting choices and solliciting comments for the inclusion or exclusion of the Base Camp, etc. I am glad our unit can and will handle important and sensitive issues in that manner.
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Old 04-10-2006, 02:06 PM   #45
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Bryan,

Why do you keep harping about criminality? Do you have a law enforcement background? Are you a lawyer? Are you a prosecutor? Do you honestly think that all instances of "undo influence" rises to the level of criminality? On the other hand, are you bare faced asserting that there has never been any "perks" or "discounts" provided by Airstream? Do you really think we are interested in doing the type of criminal investigation into alleged influence that you say we have to have in order to simply discuss influence?

You insist that I read the Constitution, Bylaws, etc. when I have. Then you cite rules that have nothing to do what-so-ever with influence, financial or otherwise. If you think there are rules within our organization that are SPECIFICALLY intended to address influence ethics then you look them up and copy them to this thread. I shouldn't have to do your work for you, when I know it doesn't exist. And yes, I have an extensive law enforcement background. There are no criminal actions to be taken in this organization, because no crimes have been committed. You, asking us to prove that there is, ask for us to prove a negative - something that doesn't exist. "Undo influence" is a ethical question, not a criminal one in this context.
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Old 04-11-2006, 05:23 AM   #46
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Quote:
I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order. A MAL pays the same amount of dues as members in local units and even higher than some local units. A MAL actually has more money going towards the international dues. In the past collecting a vote for a MAL may have been a problem or the decision may simply have been made on the basis that a MAL would not involved at any local level. But all club business is not limited to the local unit level and with internet connectivity there should be no reason not to make way to accommodate them now for international matters. The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration. One should not assume a lack of committment on the part of a MAL but rather consider the committment being placed at the international level. Many can be actively attending and participating in state and International rallies. Some may not be in line with home based attendance of luncheons, meetings and other functions.
Well said Carol. Thanks.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:27 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Forrest
Bryan, Why do you keep harping about criminality?
Because I consider the unfounded allegations that are being made to be irresponsible, ignorant, poisonous, and highly destructive. The denial of the implications of the asssertions and the allegations is not constructive in any way.

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Then you cite rules that have nothing to do what-so-ever with influence, financial or otherwise.
I referred to provisions in the WBCCI Constitution that are typical boilerplate inserted for the specific reason to ameliorate undue influence in association governance, financial and otherwise, by other entities.

The assertions contradict themselves: If there is undue influence there is criminal activity. You can't have one without the other in a nonprofit association. Again, I have provided reference for anyone who wants to learn why this is so. Those who make allegations about innapropriate behavior, such as undue influence, should support those allegations and not just try to pretend that they are not what they are. Ignoring the references I have offered or trying to pretend that they do not say what they say is not going to lead anywhere.

I am not asking anyone to prove a negative, I am asking that support and evidence for allegations that there is undue influence or other ethical, moral, or legal breach of duty by leaders of the association be put on the table.

It was alleged that there was no code of ethics - I quoted it. It was alleged that the consititution included provisions for Thor to have influence over WBCCI - I showed that the reality is the opposite. It was alleged that undue influence was not illegal and I have provided reference to demonstrate otherwise. The question is just how far this should go and continue. I think that if what has been offered in this vein is not enough for someone then the issue is not undue influence in the association but something deeper and more personal. And that is out of bounds for a discussion like this.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:42 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Because I consider the unfounded allegations that are being made to be irresponsible, ignorant, poisonous, and highly destructive. The denial of the implications of the asssertions and the allegations is not constructive in any way.
I agree with all this and might offer something else. Making statements about the charactor of other people on an open forum with your name signed to it could also be construed as charactor assasination and the source of the statements could be held legally liable. You might also meet up with some of the folks you are so viteral about. Might not be too pleasant. I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:48 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by wheel interested
I think a revision to voting rights for members at large would be in order.... The reasons for the choice to become a member at large can be for various reasons, but in joining the club it demonstrates an interest and committment to becoming a club member and should rate consideration.
One of the difficulties is related to the earlier comment about the new generation Inet social structures. WBCCI has always suffered because its most active members are out and about and not always able to participate directly at all levels. This is why a republic structure with delegates is used and why important issues are on the table for so long. Where do members vote and how do they vote and how are votes counted?

The member at large issue touches another comment about focus as well. Is WBCCI a federation of its local units or is it a uniform collection of its members? What is the role of the unit in the association? Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?

The "should rate consideration" is an interesting point as well. It raises the issue of what someone expects to receive in return for supporting the organization with dues. Is dues payment a gift or is it a quid-pro-quo contract? Does payment of dues entitle one to some set of privileges or benefits? What about other categories of members?

What gets me is that there is this big ruckus about MAL voting rights that they could purchase (as some have) for a simple $10 or so donation to some local unit somewhere. I am rather put-off by those who make a choice to join as MAL and then seem entitled to something they did not choose - especially when there is such a simple and inexpensive solution to the voting problem. Such angst tells me the problem is not MAL voting privilege but rather something else.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:51 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by cooperhawk
I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.
Are you saying that I have called people scoundrels?

If that is the perception, I am grieved. The intent and purpose of my effort has been to object to unfounded allegations and personal aspersions.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:53 AM   #51
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Not at all. I am agreeing with you. You read it wrong.
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Old 04-11-2006, 08:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cooperhawk
I agree with all this and might offer something else.

Making statements about the charactor of other people on an open forum with your name signed to it could also be construed as charactor assasination and the source of the statements could be held legally liable. You might also meet up with some of the folks you are so viteral about. Might not be too pleasant. I have met some of these folks and they are not the scoundrels that you portray.
I see I worded it poorly. I meant the people casting unfounded aspersions might experience some consequences.
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:50 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
One of the difficulties is related to the earlier comment about the new generation Inet social structures. WBCCI has always suffered because its most active members are out and about and not always able to participate directly at all levels. This is why a republic structure with delegates is used and why important issues are on the table for so long. Where do members vote and how do they vote and how are votes counted?

The member at large issue touches another comment about focus as well. Is WBCCI a federation of its local units or is it a uniform collection of its members? What is the role of the unit in the association? Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?

The "should rate consideration" is an interesting point as well. It raises the issue of what someone expects to receive in return for supporting the organization with dues. Is dues payment a gift or is it a quid-pro-quo contract? Does payment of dues entitle one to some set of privileges or benefits? What about other categories of members?

What gets me is that there is this big ruckus about MAL voting rights that they could purchase (as some have) for a simple $10 or so donation to some local unit somewhere. I am rather put-off by those who make a choice to join as MAL and then seem entitled to something they did not choose - especially when there is such a simple and inexpensive solution to the voting problem. Such angst tells me the problem is not MAL voting privilege but rather something else.
Bryan, you have made your post very interesting and thought provoking. I was actually disappointed that I finished reading it! I think it could be expounded upon as a series of articles. Actually much of what I have read here in this thread by many could and should be the types of articles I could and should be reading in my unit newsletter and Blue Beret. Would I ever look forward to receiving them then!! Seems there is very little club "business, insightful articles, stimulating essays, rebuttals and opinions in those publications.

I think the attention and expression of interest about members at large has come primarily from non-MAL members. I think it's time is due for consideration. Yes there is a simple work around, but why shouldn't we refine and rectify the need for members working out their own solutions? About MAL, I am not certain of what the angst is telling you, but I would be intrigued by the theories.
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:10 PM   #54
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Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Are units locality centric (as most are) or issue centric (e.g. WDC and VAC)? Are units the basic governance entity or are the memberships? Where does the I'Rally fit into these considerations? How does the organization support its units (chapters) and in what ways?
WDC is a Unit - just like any other Unit, the VAC is an IntraClub. IntraClub members vote through their Unit, not through the VAC (or other IntraClub). WDC just happens to have a higher ratio of VAC members than most Units. You could be a MAL VAC member...

Other WBCCI IntraClubs are:Shari
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:23 PM   #55
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Shari, Thanks for clarifying the difference between IntraClubs and Units. I'd hate to see some folks more confused than they already are on this. ;-)

The relationship between the VAC and the WDC does serve to illustrate the issue. I know that many VAC members join WDC rather than their local unit and that this seems to be a recommended practice by many VAC members. It is this practice that puts emphasis on an important question for the WBCCI regarding its structure and voting policies and basic identity.

Being able to notice such things as the VAC and WCD common interest patterns is an important part of the ability to be proactive in solving problems such as WBCCI faces rather than being reactive. It is one of several core issues that have not been well addressed IMHO. I see the topic of this thread as one of several distractions from these issues. Distractions that don't contribute to the growth and health of WBCCI.
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:49 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Shari, Thanks for clarifying the difference between IntraClubs and Units. I'd hate to see some folks more confused than they already are on this. ;-)

The relationship between the VAC and the WDC does serve to illustrate the issue. I know that many VAC members join WDC rather than their local unit and that this seems to be a recommended practice by many VAC members. It is this practice that puts emphasis on an important question for the WBCCI regarding its structure and voting policies and basic identity.

Being able to notice such things as the VAC and WCD common interest patterns is an important part of the ability to be proactive in solving problems such as WBCCI faces rather than being reactive. It is one of several core issues that have not been well addressed IMHO. I see the topic of this thread as one of several distractions from these issues. Distractions that don't contribute to the growth and health of WBCCI.
Joining the WDC unit is not a recommendation of this VAC member , I believe that you are best served by joining a local unit which has the same goals as the member. There are other Vintage oriented units other than WDC, such as the Denver and El Camino Real units. We attend an El Camino Real rally and have one of the newest trailers with our 1979 Safari (although one of the oldest tow vehicles with the Lincoln). One real advantage to the WDC unit is the $1 dues compared to $20 for At Large.

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