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Old 09-12-2009, 06:35 PM   #99
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this is like the kid that poked the hornets nest with a stick. I am watching him run towards the river hoping to find a reed to breath through along the way. I need to mix a cocktail and enjoy watching this unfold.

BTW, my money is on ol' buttercup. I think he is the chief hornet and someone is going to swell up from all the stings.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:40 PM   #100
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Join there is a lot to offer, all this stuff doesn't effect the local units and the events they have -------------JOIN.
But - If I re-enlist my local unit would get very little of my dues. The lion's share would be spent without regard to what is best for the club but rather would be used to perpetuate a demonstrably failed management plan.

And my re-enlistment would be taken as a vote in favor of precisely the practices that will lead to an undesirable end. Undesirable unless you are a beneficiary, that is.

And - any organization that uses an "ethics" policy to run the organization is not fit for survival anyway.

Pat
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:46 PM   #101
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They apparently followed Blue book Article V rather than Roberts Rules.
They didn't even follow Art V.

Here's section G again:

"G. The [Ethics and Grievance] committee's recommendation, in either case as aforesaid, may be that the accused member
be expelled from membership in the club or that such member be suspended from membership
for a stated period of time, or that the complaint be dismissed."

Translation: The E&G Committee can recommend expulsion, suspension or dismissal.

It can't recommend "probation".


Did Leo ask for a hearing LI Pets?
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #102
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The relationship between Robert's Rules and an organization's procedural rules, usually expressed in the bylaws, can differ. Generally the bylaws are the authority and Robert's Rules apply only in those situations where there is no rule in the bylaws and the bylaws state that Robert's Rules apply in those situations. When the bylaws (or other organizational document[s]) and Robert's Rules conflict, the bylaws are the authority; when the question is unclear, the parliamentarian should be asked or the chair can rule.

Robert's Rules are about how to run a meeting, primarily plenary meetings, i.e., meetings of the entire membership or an annual meeting of an organization. Board of directors often will use them too. Issues like grievances, hearings, due process, are not directly referred to. Henry Robert was a Civil War general who compiled the Rules in the latter part of the 19th Century when those kind of issues were less important than they are to us. His last revision was published in 1915 and there have been subsequent revisions by others.

State statutes and court decisions may affect all of this and supersede bylaws and Gen'l Robert's Rules.

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Old 09-12-2009, 08:16 PM   #103
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BTW, my money is on ol' buttercup. I think he is the chief hornet and someone is going to swell up from all the stings.
Too Kind Frank. But I am a lover, not a fighter . I also am waiting to see how this will unfold. Maybe nothing will ever come of it and these will be the forums until someone gets tired of doing them or they just don't make enough money. What is sure is that one day those forums will be gone. The reason is that Mr. Gibson holds the keys to them. He has the database, software, the hosting space and all of that. The club is 100% dependent of Mr. Gibson providing that service. This means that unless he stays a member for life AND he keeps that server space AND is willing to provide that service, the WBCCI will eventually find itself without a forums.

This is one of the principal reasons that I wanted to see WBCCI own that infrastructure. Once they do, it doesn't matter that one webmaster decides to quit - the WBCCI will still own the software and can find another qualified individual to carry on. We web types are a dime a dozen. When one of us leaves, another simply can step up to the plate.

That plus the ads and all the other issues...... well you get my drift.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:34 AM   #104
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There is an entire 19 page section in RRONR that covers disciplinary procedures (Sec XX).
You have a different version of Robert's Rules than the one I have. There have been many revisions and additions over the years. Mine is more traditional. No one is wrong. Bylaws often refer to Robert's Rules, but often don't state what version, causing more confusion. If WBCCI's bylaws have their own grievance procedures, they may supersede any version of Robert's.

Since I've never seen the WBCCI organic documents (and hope not to!) I don't know what they say. I simply have tried to help people understand the relationship between Robert's, corporate bylaws or other documents regulating procedures and statutes. Often corporate rules are legal and different than Robert's Rules—they might be better or not.

Amending bylaws is usually reserved to the board of directors (it may have another name in the WBCCI, but if it is responsible for running the organization, it is a board). Some organizations only allow the members to amend the bylaws, some allow either to do so. Any arrangement is probably legal in all states.

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Old 09-13-2009, 10:55 AM   #105
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You're looking at an older version:
Thank you for the clarification.
Sorry to hear about the verdict.

So who's your probation officer?
Do you have to wear an ankle bracelet?
Do you have to wear a scarlet "E" on your breast as a badge of shame?
Must you now register as a Wally offender?

But seriously, did you answer the complaint and demand a hearing with the Ethics and Grievance Committee in writing?

Did you have a hearing?

Are you going to appeal?

Was the complainant a member of the WBCCI when your alleged offenses occurred?
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:00 PM   #106
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Thank you for the clarification.
Sorry to hear about the verdict.


Do you have to wear an ankle bracelet?
Do you have to wear a scarlet "E" on your breast as a badge of shame?
Must you now register as a Wally offender?
Would the ankle bracelet be made of aluminum?
Will you not be allowed to wear a blue beret for a certain amount of time?
do you have counseling during your probation period?
will you have to do community service after your release?
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:04 PM   #107
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Currently, the MEMBERSHIP of the WBCCI does NOT have access to amend our bylaws. There is a proposed constitutional amendment out that will allow the MEMBERSHIP to modify our bylaws, but you have to first legislate the membership's RIGHT to amend those bylaws before you can attack the grievance procedures. You could bring this before your membership as a first strike, but there is no quick fix here.

Leadership is not about to allow membership access to the very procedures and budgets that are their own personal tools of failure...

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Leo,

Unfortunately, there is never a quick fix. Since the members have no control over the sections which need to be changed, my proposed motion will not work. Perhaps a "sense of the membership" resolution would be the route now?

Bill
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:58 PM   #108
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Exclamation

The bylaws are the authority and Robert's Rules apply in those situations where there is no reference in the bylaws.

Wbcci states that Robert's Rules apply, in so doing it would be the most current version unless otherwise stated.

Bottom line is if Leo really wants a final resolution he needs to take to a Court in NY and have the WBCCI appear on his turf.

It would be a very interesting case that could result in replacement of the good 'ol Boys club dictators.

This would promote harmony within the club having a correct direction in its administration.

IMO the current leaders are clueless how to interpet and or follow the rules as written.

Perhaps a judge can teach the old dogs new tricks!
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:55 AM   #109
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It would be a very interesting case that could result in replacement of the good 'ol Boys club dictators.

This would promote harmony within the club having a correct direction in its administration.



Perhaps a judge can teach the old dogs new tricks!
Actually they will just find a new old dog that likes the taste of the ALPO. Change is not possible with in the current club. Not realizing that is the biggest issue.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:25 AM   #110
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When an organization starts focusing on parliamentiary procedures, it's time to bring in Hospice.
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:31 AM   #111
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Parliamentary procedures are supposed to allow a meeting to proceed with fairness. People can use them to subvert a meeting and people can ignore them to act as petty tyrants. When people focus on procedure only something's really wrong and hospice may by just around the corner.

Gene
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