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Old 07-17-2009, 09:12 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 47WeeWind View Post
by my beloved club, the WBGCI (Wally Byam Grievance Club International). Spend months developing a revised member chat forum,then put in charge of it a trigger-happy new member who files grievances against club members who post there. A sure-fire formula for growing membership and encouraging participation.

I've declined invitations to sign up. The former club chat room was pretty dull, but the new one has quickly become toxic. Count me out.
Then again, we don't even really know if any grievances were filed. This could all be a hoax cleverly contrived to exploit the weaknesses of both WBCCI and Airstream Forums.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:14 AM   #30
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Thumbs down If you won't bother to edit it, I don't care to read it

Dear LIPETS

If you don't want to take the time to make your post understandable,
I don't see why I should waste my time to try and understand it.

I made it through a couple of paragraphs and can't make any sense of it.

Please don't waste our time with junk like this.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:31 AM   #31
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OK, so that was rather harsh.....

Would you say that to him sitting at a campfire?

My decision to join or not join the WBCCI is being based on many things, including threads like this. I welcome his effort. I do hope it can be cleaned up some though

I guess I'm one of those "part of the solution" kind of guys.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:51 AM   #32
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Just because it's filled doesn't mean it will be heard, or acted on.

Lets hope cooler heads prevail and this subject will be dropped. Everyone involved was just trying to make the new WBCCI forum a success.

Damon
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:52 AM   #33
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It looks to me like the original .pdf was run through a cheap OCR and all the formatting was lost.

There's some mud-slinging here about drunken nut-jobs. I think it's because the original document was made to look sloppy and ridiculous by a poor job of text conversion.

May the original grievance .pdf can be added as an attachment, rather than trying to convert it to text?
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:15 AM   #34
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It's pretty simple, folks…

If you don't like or can't deal with the formatting of the message, just move along. No need to call it "junk" if you only made it through two paragraphs.

Oh, and have a nice day!
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:20 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Perhaps the time has come to put an end to all this frivolous stuff.

How about starting a legal Defense Fund to get them in a competent court of law to interpret the bylaws etc.

Going directly to club will not work, I spent a lot of time last year on Leo's last frivolous grivience this is out of hand need I mention Bob Thompson??

It would take about $2500-3500 to get started.

While I neither agree, or disagree, and plead ignorance to trying to read this article, for the only reason of I do not have a law degree, but need one to understand it.

I wanted to comment on one thing... Where in America can we or anyone find a "Competent court" I personaly dont think they are out there. Lord knows especially not in family law, injury law, or any other law I have read articles on. America is in trouble, at the very core.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul&Dee View Post
Dear LIPETS

If you don't want to take the time to make your post understandable,
I don't see why I should waste my time to try and understand it.

I made it through a couple of paragraphs and can't make any sense of it.

Please don't waste our time with junk like this.
Rather rude wouldn't you say? Maybe the poster doesn't know how to clean up the text. We would all be better served if a little help was offered rather than just slinging insults.
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:15 PM   #37
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Rude is an understatement, I can't reply to that comment as I would like to.

I'm getting another version of the 3 complaints, and will forward them to Janet or who ever to edit my original posts
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul&Dee View Post
Dear LIPETS

If you don't want to take the time to make your post understandable,
I don't see why I should waste my time to try and understand it.

I made it through a couple of paragraphs and can't make any sense of it.

Please don't waste our time with junk like this.
I'd be grateful if you would not waste my time with comments like that.
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Old 07-17-2009, 06:41 PM   #39
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Question Is this for real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
I'm getting another version of the 3 complaints, and will forward them to Janet or who ever to edit my original posts
Bob,

Can you tell us where you got these? Greg? Leo? Tim? An undercover agent at Jackson Center?

Do you know if these have actually been filed, or are even going to be filed?

I'm wondering if we are all being played for fools here. Note that all three of the alleged defendants are principals of SaveWally.org, and there's not a word about it over on that web site.
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Old 07-17-2009, 07:27 PM   #40
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They were filed according to one of the complainants.

As far as posting on Save Wally I can't say, but I have these complaints as original copies--- no undercover agents involved.

With pending hearings and possible litigation I'm limited in what I disclose in a public forum.

If you have specific questions or information to help the accused please PM me.

IMO this guy presented himself to Charlie Burke & Wbcci as web expert , they bought it!

Several people exposed some facts and issues that left him in bad light so in retaliation .........................

He's is using the club and the ethics / grievance committee as his personal tool to champion his own agenda in tarnishing these three innocent members.

It is my understanding his membership expired the same day he filed 2 of the 3 grievances, but he renewed on the spot

Hopefully the EGC sees through this sham and dismisses all of them.

.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:04 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Rude is an understatement, I can't reply to that comment as I would like to.
Thanks for taking the high road.
Quote:

I'm getting another version of the 3 complaints, and will forward them to Janet or who ever to edit my original posts
I'll see if I can break the original posts into a few more, but slightly shorter, posts, and edit some of the computer *stuff* out of them.
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Old 07-17-2009, 11:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
FORMAL GRIEVANCE
DATE: June 26, 2009

TO: Mr. Jerry Larson, President, Wally Byam Caravan Club International

RE: Grievance - filed against Leo G WBCCI # 6006, President, Unit 72 - Metro NY, Region 2


STATEMENT:
This document will outline that Leo G [6006] did willfully and knowingly assist in conducting a
campaign of intimidation and smear against my person, character, and business in a manner that constitutes gross negligence of his official WBCCI duties, dereliction of his elected WBCCl leadership level office,
and further violates nearly every item of WBCCI code of ethics.

[see attached support document "WBCCI:lnternet Realities - The Internet Building Block"]

Garvey's public behavior further demonstrates such a high level of disregard for the WBCCI organization, it's leadership and its membership as to at least partially explain the declining membership numbers and the
current overall state of the club due to exposure of members and potential members to his public communications.

FACTS:
(grammar errors corrected for easier reading)
[emphasis (bold face) has been added by me]

exhibit oj
On 06-20-2009 @ I:50 PM Leo G [6006] entered the following post on the WBCCI Forums under his moniker "65GT" :

65GT 06-20-2009 @ I :50 PM
I just wish I could say that I trusted the honesty and integrity in the way messages and threads on this forum are bandied, but I don't. Many of my past postings have been deleted, and I was told (yes hearsay) that was under the direct order of a past International President.
Regardless, we now have manipulation of postings as recent as this morning. Followed by the EC Chair chastising those members whose posts remain.

Mere members can not delete their posting here. However, non-member (fact) Moderators can do as they please (and do).
It would be pointless to upload the partial screen shot here, where it would be just as likely to be deleted near instantly, so I have tacked the partial. screen shot to SaveWally.org/forums, here:
bttp:/lsavewally.orgiforumsiindex.php/topic,1484.msgl0896.btm1#msgl0896
6006
This message was edited by 65GT on 6-20-09 @ I :59 PM
• This post clearly exhibits Leo G's well-documented, ill-intended spreading of misinformation, manipulation of facts, and outright declaration of falsehoods in his attempt to spread disharmony and ill will among WBCCI members and undermine organizational leadership authority. Garvey publicly
questions matter-of-factly and in his own words the "honesty and integrity" of the leadership based on "hearsay". Garvey goes on to publicly proclaim the falsehood that there are "non-member [fact]
moderators" who can "do as they please [and do]" on the WBCCI club forums. There are none. As is typical with the SaveWally organization members, the post is ended with a link to the SaveWally website.
[exhibit b]
On 06-20-2009 @ 6:06 AM Leo G [6006] entered the following post on the WBCCI Forums under his moniker "65GT" :

65GT 06-20-2009 @ 6:06 AM
I can't go through all of that -- I've read most/much of it already. Here's my observation of what's taken
place.
Tim says there were 44 emails going back and forth before he got the final word. During that time Tim
was giving it his all researching and digging, jointly with Charlie. It's apparent to me that's where all the
"1's" come from.
I think that's likely a whole lot of effort, and it appears to me that Tim maybe wasn't fully aware that there were just as many emails going back and forth in another direction.
It's possible that Charlie wasn't being entirely open about what was going on. Maybe that was intentional from an exploratory point of view (Big Blue does this all the time internally).
Yet, if Tim was somehow under the impression that his work and research were of real value, I can see how this all spirals out of control.
If I were in Tim's shoes, and believed that there was an alternate reality, I never would have made it to 44 emails. I would have explored and researched for a dozen or so, and then bowed out if the direction wasn't
clear, or it looked like my efforts were falling out of favor. Everybody's time and efforts are valuable. It's one thing if you're being paid for your time (???), it's quite another when all of your efforts are VOLUNTEER efforts.
Nobody wants to see their time and efforts wasted, and yet I have no idea how to summarize all of this, as °1° wasn't involved. (still counting?)
What I do know is that the discussions surrounding this new effort at the Mid-Winters was a complete abomination, and very readily revealed that our top leadership had little clue as to the real goals and purpose of the effort. It instead turned into a witch hunt - eliminate handles - full
disclosure of posters - we need to reveal and run off 'rascals', and make sure no one could infiltrate a system they don't use, and make sure no one could assume the identity of other members. Hmm... Leadership? We're still running with a cold war mentality at the top, back in the 50's, back in the
USSR!
I suspect that kind of nonsense leads to an 1800+ word Terms of Service, and that lack of trust within the membership, from a leadership viewpoint (much like leaders don't trust ANY member to cast any absent Unit's votes [what PARANOIA!]). These leadership aspects paint a much broader
picture of the fear and mistrust that revolves around our top levels of leadership. How fearful are we that we need a parliamentarian to get involved in a TOS? Same old WBCCI I've been watching since 2005. Unfortunately it sounds like the same old WBCCI members have been fleeing since 1978...
69 Ill's", 6 "we's" (after being dropped to a beta tester, how many we's could there be?), and no "US" (not when you've been cut buddy) are all appropriate. Thanks for counting...
So would you be one of those 'paid' staff that helped build it? You don't own Vintage-Airstream.com?
It's going to be awful lonely over there, but then again, maybe that's what leadership needs in order to get their heads and necks out of their shell- a forum completely devoid of members - leadership wannabees exceptions of course. There will always be those... (crickets)...
Hey, how many WBCCI leaders does it take to balance a budget and grow the membership?
Damned if anybody really knows - but if we ad another half dozen committees, maybe expand to a fourth level of leadership (the Exalted 3?), we sure could Increase the rate at which we burn through financial resources and finally get to the end of a 30 year trend line - total club dissolution•••
Hey guess what - 600+ words - you'd be about 113rd of the way to finding out exactly what you can and can't do at the brand new WBCCI forums with an EIGHTEEN HUNDRED+ WORD TERMS OF SERVICE.
•••and yet nobody understands why we're running out of members, money, and time... Good grief.
6006
This message was edited by 65GT on 6-20-09 @ 2:00 PM
• This is a clear example of Leo G's gross negligence of his WBCCI duties, dereliction and abuse of his WBCCI elected office and of his verbal assaults on WBCCI Leadership in public forum communications in an attempt to discredit, smear and undermine organizational authority. Accusations of
intentional leadership dishonesty, incompetence, "witch-hunt", "cold war", ''USSR'', leadership distrustful of membership. "paranoia", "mistrust that revolves around our top levels of leadership", U •••get their heads
and necks out of their shell", "leadership wannabees", mockery of leadership financial stewardship, etc, etc, etc.
No further comment....

(exhibit c)
On June 19,2009, 11:18:59 AM Leo G [6006] entered the following post on the SaveWally.org Forums under his moniker "65GT" :

Re: WBCCI Forums - Missing The Mark?

«Reply #7 on: June 19,2009, 11 :18:59 AM»
I'm sure Tim will have plenty, let's get one thing straight... The Sprint Cup Series is owned and operated by NASCAR -- very bad analogy Charlie.
A sponsor is merely an exclusive or shared advertiser, sometimes a promoter. You reach nascar through Nascar.com. You don't reach Nascar through Nascar.SPRINT.com...
Nobody has any objections to anything that has been done (that I'm aware of) except having that forum
hosted at any url address other than a WBCCI owned and operated url...
Thank the sponsor anyway you like Charlie. If you're looking for paid sponsors, get me a rate card. The last time someone thought they could intimidate mere members at WBCCI, they talked a big game, and then they balked when somebody actually took them up on a PAID page. A paid page that never should have been required in the first place, but then again, leadership in this club is pretty good at dismissing
the membership, aren't they?
...and don't lay this nobody volunteers crap here. We've got a Unit Guide here with hundreds of hours invested, that we were asked to donate to the WBCCI under the condition that nobody could take credit (mere mention or otherwise) for actually doing the work. Kind of like telling Jim H to continue on with his Merit Award program as long as nobody knows he's working on it. Or maybe you being in charge of the EC Committee, but you'd have to go by Chairman X or something.
Our leadership is full of hypocrites Charlie - Not rumor - Not opinion - fact... Some intentionally work against the membership'. right to vote, and be informed, and yet through our failed "leadership self~selection program" these hypocrites are allowed to rise to the top.
Put the club's needs first and foremost and there shouldn't be any problems. Get deluded in compromise and conflict of interest results? They get caught up in thlin one each and every time...
Oh, and I'm very aware of the free offer Tim is talking about It's a URL, WBCClForums.org that Tim would be happy to GIVE to the WBCCI - lock, stock, barrel, passwords - lock Tim out if you like - but it becomes something better than sending Nascar fans to SPRINT for NASCAR business...
Talk isn't cheap here - the amount of electronic communications that we've facilitated here over the last 4 years runs circles around WBCCI's pace to get with the times. SaveWally.org 1
WBCCI.SaveWally.org 1SaveWaUy.org.forums. At at near zero cost (well Tim's domain registration and Tim's donation of hosting space aside). For those that aren't familiar with what those cost (to compare what it would cost the WBCCI to get out of contracting for web service) Domain
registration (the url you go to for $20 a year (padded)), and $4 mth hosting costs. Add software, or FREE software and this club could be saving THOUSANDS a year, all on volunteer effort.
Make it happen Charlie, and volunteers will step up to help you maintain any and all... Just pull the plug on OTC and make it happen...
Lastly (no smilies again - damn!), thanks for stopping by. Don't be a stranger - there's nothing wrong with a little 2-way communication!


« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 11:31 :25 AM by 65GT »
.. This communication underscores not only Leo G's complete lack of common courtesy and respect for WBCCI Leadership and fellow WBCCI club members alike, but also exhibits negligence and dereliction of his elected WBCCI office in the public undennining of organizational authority. Not to
mention the public mockery and humiliation of same. Why would any curious potential new member be persuaded to join WBCCI upon viewing this type of dialog?


(exhibit d)
On Friday morning 06-26-2009 Leo G [6006J attempted to circulate a document to the IBT in order to circumvent and sway a final presentation and vote. This attempt was thwarted by Mr. Jerry Larson, WBCCI
International President. This document is titled "WBCCI Internet Realities - The Internet Building Block" and is an attachment for supporting documentation.
• This document illustrates Leo G's complete lack of common courtesy and respect for his fellow WBCCI club members but also personal abuse of his WBCCI elected position, disregard for established organizational procedures. and his general penchant for sowing strife amongst fellow members of the WBCCL The document itself is a clumsy, 11th hour attempt to create chaos and confusion by presenting misinformation, falsehoods and outright untruths in order to "divide and conquer" which is typical behavior for Leo G and the SaveWally organization.
Let us be clear. There are many organizations and websites which now prosper off of the legacy and history of the Wally Byam Club while at the same time ridiculing it publicly. They include SaveWally, AirForums, and numerous others. While professing public support the troth is that any newly sprouting success of the WBBCI organization poses a grave threat to these other organizations. That is the reason the only thing they ever have to offer are criticisms. Leo G and his SaveWally.org are about promoting Leo G and SaveWally.org.


VIOLATION!S!:
Pursuant to Article XV of the WBCCI Constitution, Bylaws [01119107), Article V, Sect.2,
Pg. 1I, items A & B "Disciplinary Procedures" I hereby file grievance against Leo G [6006) for violations of the WBCCI Code of Ethics:
[1) To be ever mindful of our responsibility to Wally Byam Caravan Club International, Inc., and through conduct indicate to the public that membership in this organization is an assurance ofour courtesy on
the road and good will to all peoples and countries.

[2] To be ever mindful of what we say or print with respect to its effect on others so as to avoid disharmony and ill feelings among club members and to dedicate ourselves to the work of cementing together the members of WBCCI in bonds of good fellowship and mutual understanding.

[3] To conduct ourselves in a manner to inspire others engaged in recreational vehicle travel to a full appreciation of the intent and meaning of this code.

[4] To maintain our camps in an orderly manner and leave them in the same way. I do charge that based on the aforementioned evidentiary exhibits [a] through [d] that Leo G has violated in numerous and egregious ways every item in the WBCCI Code of Ethics with the possible exception of item 4 [see supporting documentation]. I respectfully request that WBCCI take stern and aggressive measures against him to eliminate these kinds of actions in our organization both now and into the future.

SUMMARY:
Although l owe the assailants of this project no explanations whatsoever, I would like for the benefit of the Committees to use this SUlIUDary as an opportunity to set the record straight on this project. Together with Charlie Burke, our small group has invested 7 months of effort into building a world-class resource for the WBCCI that surpasses any and all competitors. Everything has been professionally hand built and it is hosted professionally on the level of Youtube & eBay. No expense has been spared. Unbeknownst to the membership at large, we have discussed with Airstream, Inc. their potential participation on the new Forums. Charlie Burke has been in contact with Mr. Wheeler who in tum has reacted very favorably. Just this past Saturday, June 20, I was contacted at borne by the head of marketing and branding at Airstream. I have a long-standing and friendly relationship with him. One of his comments to me on Saturday [with a chuckle] was, and I quote, "Greg, your biggest problem is your level of quality and your eye for detail. The site is wonderful and we want you right where you are."
I personally urge the leadership to verify these things for themselves based on MY facts. The SaveWally.org organization was complicit in these actions. The continuous assault on this project WBCCI membership & WBCCI Leadership by peny self-centered individuals runs the very real risk of ruining the untold bright opportunities that are opening up for the future of the WBCCI.
It is my sincere hope & desire that this document, in its entirety, containing all the facts will be made public so that it is visible for everyone to see the truth. As they say "Light is the best disinfectant."
Thank you for your time and prompt attention on this matter.
Sincerely,
Gregory A. Gibson
WBCCI#2026
704-566-1437 plf
I hope this makes the document a better read. Any errors of syntax or intent, other than the original posters, are entirely mine.
It took a while to edit everything, so I'll do the next post in the morning, unless somebody else wants to spend an hour or two editing...
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