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Old 12-20-2009, 05:37 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Frank,

What's a fallacy?, just because you go both ways, in no way ties the WB to the Forums, although I did join both the boy and girl scouts as a kid.
I was going to comment but you made such complete utter sense.

Girl scout... good one...
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:53 PM   #156
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Insurance mentioned again as a tangible benefit to the membership and another good reason to remain in the Club. In 27 years of membership I have never heard of any claim made under the policy. What does the policy cover that our personal, residential and vehicle liability insurance do not cover? What does it cost and could Units get identical or better coverage on their own for a competative price? Has anyone actually seen the policy? I have been told by Unit Presidents that they could not get a copy of the policy for confidentiality reasons.

For all I know the Club insurance may be a good thing and a little transparency would let the membership judge for themselves.

But then the lack of transparency is one of galling issues between the membership and the elites.
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Old 12-20-2009, 07:35 PM   #157
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Defending yourself in a court of law...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonH View Post
Insurance mentioned again as a tangible benefit to the membership and another good reason to remain in the Club. In 27 years of membership I have never heard of any claim made under the policy. What does the policy cover that our personal, residential and vehicle liability insurance do not cover? What does it cost and could Units get identical or better coverage on their own for a competative price? Has anyone actually seen the policy? I have been told by Unit Presidents that they could not get a copy of the policy for confidentiality reasons.

For all I know the Club insurance may be a good thing and a little transparency would let the membership judge for themselves.

But then the lack of transparency is one of galling issues between the membership and the elites.
Or, as someone else once asked in another thread:

Why does a small group need ins. if you are so worried have people sign a disclaimer, like some Dr's do ,that you can not sue.

To whit I responded:

The following is based on an actual experience.

I was involved in the United States Cycling Federation for many years. This group sanctions and provides the rules structure in the USA for bicycle racing.

All participants sign wavers stating that they will not hold the USCF or its officials, etc., responsible should they be injured, etc., etc., etc.

In one of the races I worked a rider pulled in front of a vehicle of one of the race officials and his bicycle was knocked to the ground.

His mother sued the vehicle operator and the USCF even though she had signed the waiver.

While she did not prevail, an attorney had to be hired to defend the person operating the vehicle and the organization. The waiver was brought up during the initial deposition.

The point of all this is that once the attorney's get involved the only way the situation can be dealt with is by way of the legal system and that costs money.

Fortunately the attorney's fee for appearing on behalf of the vehicle operator were provided by insurance that covered all of the officials at the event and provided by the USCF.

I don't know about you, but $325.00 and hour for 5 hours was more than I would have wanted to pay for that service which is what it would have cost if we were not insured.

END_OF_RESPONSE_TO_OTHER_THREAD

And by the way, the vehicle operators insurance refused to do anything because the individual was performing a "service" and that, so they stated, was not covered in the insurance on the vehicle. I suppose he could have hired an attorney to take on the insurance company but that too would have cost money; probably lots of it.

One of the wonders of America is that anyone can sue anyone for anything at any time.

Personally, I am not willing to do much of anything for anyone these days without the sponsoring organization providing liability coverage for all who "work" the event. In this day and age it is common practice for law suits to name anyone and everyone associated with hosting the event.

While you might not loose the suit, that is NOT the issue. The issue is that you MUST defend yourself and the organization must defend itself. If you do not you will be found in default and the judgment will go against you. Defending yourself in a court of law is NOT a cheap activity.

Jim
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:41 PM   #158
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Norsea misunderstands my concern. I am fully aware of the need for insurance to cover activities undertaken by officers and members of the organization not covered by their personal, residential and vehicle policies. I support such coverage.

My secondary concern is that while WBCCI has such coverage, the extent of that coverage is apparently not available to the membership. I want to know what it covers so I can make my own decision if it is a good deal or not.

I am concerned with the lack of transparency. Why can the membership not have access to the policy. I base that on two presidents of our Unit being told they did not have access. One instance was about five years ago and the other more recent.

My primary concern is the way in which the Club does business. The elite make decisions on what the rest of us may see, hear and do. They do this in isolation from the membership. I don't fell I need lay that out, chapter and verse. Hundreds of postings on the various forums have already done that.
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:32 AM   #159
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Not knowing how good the insurance you have is not a good thing. I would think everybody should have access to all that information on line. I will tell you a story about non profit mess up.

My friend who coached for a non profit club paid insurance premiums every month to the club. When his wife became pregnant and went to the doctor for a check up the doctor's office told her she did not have insurance. To make a long story short the club kept taking the premiums out of his check but quit paying on the insurance policy.

I told my friend he should take them to court. It was settled but I do not know the details. Now that is scarey!

Brian
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:44 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by RonH View Post
Norsea misunderstands my concern. I am fully aware of the need for insurance to cover activities undertaken by officers and members of the organization not covered by their personal, residential and vehicle policies. I support such coverage.
.
RonH

You have one HUGH MISCONCEPTION. Any insurance purchased by Management that you are not advised of the coverage clearly does not include coverage for you.

Corporations by several levels of insurance, product, employee health, employee loss, leadership loss, and most important management mistakes and misconduct. Of these you as employee only get the benefit and notification of health insurance.

The insurance purchased by the Club in no way covers you for anything. You can be assured that it covers the Leadership for any and all losses to an extent beyond their personal worth. It is that level of coverage they want to keep confidential.

Keep in mind your Medicare and pension benefits are somewhat less than the coverage your Congressman has. Then again they wrote both.
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:52 AM   #161
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One benefit.. peace of mind.. never made a claim

Here is what the corporate office gives you if you request or need coverage... I've used it alot!

For what it's worth, now I'll just get event insurance... it'll cost.. but.. that's the price of freedom! At least I'll know how my $$$ will be being used.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:02 AM   #162
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That certificate of liability insurance tells me very little. It covers officers, directors, employees and "agents". How these terms are defined is unstated. The certificate refers to the policy as the last word. Who is an "agent". It may or may not cover an event put on by a unit or region. There may be significant deductibles. There may be significant exclusions.

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Old 12-21-2009, 09:07 AM   #163
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Here is the discussion Gene

Gene,

Here is the email correspondence between me and Cindy (and she's always been very helpful - the ladies at Corporate always are!!)... and they communicate and collaborate well... never had an issue with them for what they do...
----------
Hello Rob,
All unit rallies are automatically covered so an insurance certificate is not required unless you require one. I have attached the blanket certificate. Just let me know if you would still like a personalized certificate.
Cindy

---------------

As you can see, if you want a certificate in your name they will do that for you.. I agree - not much detail there, but I never questioned it.. perhaps I should have putting my neck out at my farm like I had done....

Rob



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Old 12-21-2009, 09:22 AM   #164
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certificate of liability insurance

A "certificate of liability insurance" is just that and nothing else. It is a means of satisfying requirements of the property owner on who's property the event is being held that there is SOME COVERAGE between him and the public provided by the origination holding the event.

It does not cover the participants for their actions or their injuries. It protects the origination from YOUR claim against the origination and the property owner.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:27 AM   #165
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Thanks Rob. As Howie puts it there is "some coverage", but the exact extent is unclear. Who is covered in what instance is unknown. For the property owner (campground, for example), it gives them some assurance that there some insurance out there. That's a lot of "somes". As insurance companies reduce coverage through exclusions, higher deductibles, rescissions, and the like, I expect property owners will be asking for more than a certificate since it tells very little.

Gene
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Old 12-21-2009, 11:55 AM   #166
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Insurance: something you pay for twice; first through the premiums and then by founding out how little it actually covers.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:01 PM   #167
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Try to burn a Koran in jest...now that deletion is scary...probably soon to be NOT on the forums...mike
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:22 PM   #168
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WBCCI 2009 Directory

I am always curious when people make comments about the Club. Do they belong? Are they just non-Airstream bystanders? Are they Airstream owners?

Gene Crawford isn't currently listed in the Directory.
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