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Old 04-06-2010, 11:22 AM   #1
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Fun, Fellowship and Grievances

I have been a member of over 50 Fun & Fellowship organizations in my lifetime and not one of them had a grievance committee. Business, government, political organizations are another story. I cannot for the life of me, considering the guiding principles of WBCCI, understand why there is such a committee. Further, why do so many members and the club administration spend so much time and effort with such a committtee?

Sure, perhaps years ago it was just put in to make a complete set of by-laws that follow Roberts Rules of Order but why has it become so important?

It seems to me that if we spent as much time trying to re-build the club and fix our financial problems we would be in far better shape.

As they say, 'If I were King' I would do away with the Grievance Committee and replace it with a Tech Help Committee.

What about the malcontents? What is your definition of a malcontent? Someone who does not agree with you? Sorry people the world, as well as the club, will always have them. I have run and owned many companies and they all had them. The trick is to listen to them and give them their day in court (pun). When I had my brilliant ideas the 'yes men' told me how great the idea was. The malcontents told me how dumb it was. When I listened and learned, I sometimes avoided some serious mistakes.

Yes it is hard to deal with some people but that is no reason not to listen. It is 2010 and maybe instead of living in the past it is time to bring this club into the modern era. This could mean major changes, much faster than some might like or be comfortible with.

If you dig through the e-mails, both here and on the WBBCI forum, I get a single fundimental message. One member one vote, a true Democracy. Not very practical for millions of members but certainly possible for a club of a few thousand.

In this age it is certainly possible (yes, non e-mailers can use the phone or snail mail). This does not have to be for every bit of club business but only for major changes.

My experience says, if they have their say and get to vote on an issue most of the malcontents can become valuable club contributors.

Remember, usually these people really care about the club and want to contribute, to what is in their eyes, its well being. I believe their vociferous objections will go away if the total club membership truly agreed on a course of action.

Howard
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:47 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Howard Lefkowitz View Post
Remember, usually these people really care about the club and want to contribute, to what is in their eyes, its well being. I believe their vociferous objections will go away if the total club membership truly agreed on a course of action.

Howard
Yes Howard when ever the Total Membership has had a chance to vote on an issue put forth by the Leadership the members have voted it down. They voted down the Name change, they voted down the Motorhome change. The problem is the Membership is not given a chance to vote on the issues that continue to disturb so many. A Leadership that can create a bylaw and then be the body that rules on the constitutionality of that bylaw has lead us to this level of frustration and financial ruin.

Your comments questioning the need for a grievance committee is well stated. The right to Grieve is generally extended to those with a lower status and with no other means of solving an injustice. Here Grievances are used to suppress any question as to the ultimate authority of a self centered group who's only consideration is to protect their life style.

I would vote for the Tech Committee
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:24 PM   #3
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I have the prefect solution to all this rambling.
CUT OFF THE HEAD OF THE DRAGON.
If there is no fundin for these people to squander at will with thier paid trips all over the country. BY the simple withholding of club dues,it will collapse in a few months.
If you continue to send the money, it will all continue as it is now.
Let your money speak for you. Thats all the upper end of the Club is about anyway. Simple as that.
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:36 PM   #4
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1m1v

Howard, Leo et. al. There is a large organization where 1M1V has worked well for my 40+ years of membership. The American Chemical Society (ACS) has something like 500,000 members world wide and operates on a 1M1V system. Members select a president elect each year from a field of candidates who come from either a nominating committee or candidates by petition. They all receive equal treatment and position statements for all candidates are published in the ACS magazine and sent to each member along with their ballot. Voting can be done by mail or over the internet. Last year 75% of the ballots cast were by internet voting. The membership also elects District representatives (equivalent to a WBCCI Region) by a similar system. Any changes to the ACS Constitution and by-laws must be approved by a vote of the membership. The only involvement of the President or President Elect in the ACS National Meetings ( 2 per year, 15,000 to 20,000 registrants each) is a "grip and grin" role since they are planned by the ACS HQ Staff something like 5-7 years in advance. Many of the ACS "malcontents" have run for office and some have even been elected - much to the good of the organization.

The only constant is change. The question is will the WBCCI leadership finally adapt to change or will they be left in the dust?

The weather is warming, the driveway is free of snow and mud - it must be time to go Streaming!

Another Howard
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:57 PM   #5
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Yowie Howie! It's a thread of them! I was getting confused. But I am not confused about the great observations made in this thread. I couldn't agree more. I hope al the Howies and non-Howies also get on board and speak up. Membership and those interested in membership should the WBCCI change favorably need to raise their voices in unison. Time to rally.
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Old 04-11-2010, 01:40 PM   #6
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I am back from a unit rally with fun, fellowship and no sign of a greivance. Two more days and its off to a Caravan. I am not easily offended, say what you believe. I have never been a 'company man' and I call them like I sees them. I thought the survey was a great idea especially with the large response. However, I have never been fond of urinating in the wind. I don't agree with the save wally approach either. The lawyers get money and you and I and the club members get poorer. Besides I don't think there is any legal basis for a lawsuit. I believe the great majority of members do not know what is going on and would not care anyway. What I see going on now is makes no sense to me. I am not saying don't try but the current approach is just not going to get any results it will just fan the flames and polarize the club. By the way, I believed adding a Thor Motor Home model to the club did not destroy anything. My motor home says Airstream but they did not really make it (remember the famous lipstick pig). Besides you cannot save Wally he is already dead.

Howard
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:02 AM   #7
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I just posted this on the WBCCI forum and since not many members read them I have repeated it here.

Just got back from a Unit Rally, lots of Fun and Fellowship but no grievances. You miss one of my main points Charlie; I should not have to spend any of my valuable time on this earth studying any club constitution. Life is too short to spend it on nonsense. Yes, there will always be loud mouths claiming to be fighting for the members who are only stoking their own egos. However, there will also be leaders who are doing the same. Since the leaders are in a priviledged position they have to be held to a higher standard.

I am not advocating a true Democracy, but our present form of government (if you will) is so archaic it appears to many as a dictatorship. Every time I have suggested some new modern approach I have been told it is not in the 'Blue Book' as if this is a holy document.

We are in trouble, we are bleeding members, we are bleeding dollars. I get a mental picture of a guy in a toilet bowl, the lever has been pulled, he is swirling around in the water, he is smiling and holding this book aloft. Is it the bible? No it appears to be blue?

I worked for five years to get the WBCCI leadership to let me start a Tech Help Group. What a radical concept, help the members solve problems. You would not believe the comments I got from some managers. Yes Charlie it is possible to get a change in the club but you have to be a never give up idiot and be willing to be ignored and unbelievably persistant to get a change. Many of our former leaders never even responded to my letters or e-mails. And in case you did not notice it is a 'Group' not a 'Committee'. The procedures and rules are just too difficult to make it a real permanent part of WBCCI (I was told).

Why do we need a grievance committee or such elaborate and ponderous procedures? Why can't we directly inform the membership when there is some important area that effects them and get their feedback. I thought the recent survey on the IBT questions was an excellent idea and I understand responses were received from over 300 members. What a unique idea.

Just so you know where I really stand:

Kicking out a member because he is a pain in the arse is wrong.
Filing a law suit against the club is rediculous and a total waste of time and money. Lawyers love this stuff.
Presenting a budget that is $80,000 in the red is irresponsible.
Taking years to fix serious FUN club problems because of some blue book is nuts. Lets just use Roberts Rules of Order as most FUN clubs do.
Allowing members to buy a Thor motor home and put an Airsteam sign on it is fine with me. Thats how my motor home was made.
You cannot save Wally because he is already dead.
Spending 70 or 80% of the clubs resources, in time and money, on an International for 700 or 800 members makes no sense.
The Executives of this club should be compensated for out of pocket costs when they have to travel. Just get rid of the requirements to travel.
Lets have a more open management and let the members see what is going on maybe then they will care more and participate.
Finally, lets bring the club into at least the 20th century. We should try and keep up with the rest of the world. Maybe just a little bit. Like e-mail and having Forums.

Howard
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:23 AM   #8
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Howard,

Couldn’t resist commenting on your post. Also saw it on the “other” site but won’t answer over there for obvious reasons.

Please excuse the italics for your comments. I haven’t figured out the multi quote thing yet


Kicking out a member because he is a pain in the arse is wrong.

The whole grievance thing is wrong. It is like little kids running to teacher when they think they have been slighted. The confidentiality of the grievance system just compounds the problem. If it is to exist at all it should be open hearings like a normal court

Filing a law suit against the club is rediculous and a total waste of time and money. Lawyers love this stuff

Probably not the best thing to do, however what else is left to get any ones attention?
On this one I will trust to those who have done the research and throw a few bucks their way. If nothing else, possibly it can get some kind of dialog started.
I note the wbcci budget for legal has already been exceeded by over $11,000 this year.
How much of that was wasted on useless cease and desist letters?
.
Presenting a budget that is $80,000 in the red is irresponsible.

I sat in the meeting where that was passed. I am sure most of us could balance that budget in a matter of minutes, without a dues increase. However that would mean ignoring the Blue Book

Taking years to fix serious FUN club problems because of some blue book is nuts. Lets just use Roberts Rules of Order as most FUN clubs do.

The whole book needs to be purged and done over. When you have page after page of Badge protocol and how to fly your flag it is obvious there have been a lot of people out there with out enough to do. Of course purging the blue book would require another committee. I am still trying to figure out what the “Canine Waiver” committee does.

Allowing members to buy a Thor motor home and put an Airsteam sign on it is fine with me. Thats how my motor home was made.

I was never too excited about this issue, but do see 2 possible concerns. One is letting the THOR camel get its nose in the tent. Pretty soon all Thor products are in regardless of label. We already have good all brand clubs out there.
The other concern is what happens if or when Thor sells off the Airstream division?


You cannot save Wally because he is already dead
.

A lot of Wally’s idea are not dead though. None the less it seems some have elevated him to god status and that may be overdoing it.

Spending 70 or 80% of the clubs resources, in time and money, on an International for 700 or 800 members makes no sense.

Isn’t the International SUPPOSED to be self supporting from it’s own fees ? Doesn’t really matter . After 14 straight . we will not be attending any more as long as they are full hook up only

The Executives of this club should be compensated for out of pocket costs when they have to travel. Just get rid of the requirements to travel.
Lets have a more open management and let the members see what is going on maybe then they will care more and participate.
Finally, lets bring the club into at least the 20th century. We should try and keep up with the rest of the world. Maybe just a little bit. Like e-mail and having Forums.

Absolutely right.

Keep up the good technical stuff. This is another thing we need more of
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Old 04-12-2010, 08:54 AM   #9
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Howard L

As one Howard to another I would ask you to keep us informed as to how long your post remains available on the Dark Side.

My one and only thread was removed in less than a day.
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:20 AM   #10
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Howard L

As one Howard to another I would ask you to keep us informed as to how long your post remains available on the Dark Side.

My one and only thread was removed in less than a day.
No problem Howard E. there should be no reason to remove my posts. I also posted the start of this thread and got several good responses. I don't consider it the 'Dark Side' just some members who see things a little different.

Instead of rock throwing maybe if we sat down for a good discussion we could actually help the club. Unfortunately I think we have gotten to the point where we have reached the 'mine is bigger than yours' stage (I mean egos of course).

Well I am off to my Caravan to really enjoy what Wally left us. I will check back as time and WiFi permits.

Howard
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Old 04-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #11
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No problem Howard E. there should be no reason to remove my posts. - - - - %<
We have too many Howards in this thread. I think you meant HowieE not Howard E.

Happy caravaning

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Old 04-12-2010, 06:41 PM   #12
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It's amazing to me that mere members possess the common sense that tells them what is and isn't wrong with this club, and I think there's a vast majority shares your thoughts that I put in bold above. It just amazes me (and so many others) that we could possibly have leadership that doesn't get it, understand it, or even sees it.
They see it, they don't care. They want to preserve the status quo.

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Old 04-12-2010, 08:04 PM   #13
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They can't help it--burn the Blue Book.

Please don’t take this as condescending comment, but there is nothing to be ‘amazed’ about in regards to their actions, reactions, rules and arbitrary policies. They can’t help it.

As a mere “armchair” reader of political, economic, and world history, the way they are acting and reacting is quite normal. Expect more repressions and losses.

They are ill equipped to make beneficial changes ever if they want to.
Burn that “Blue Book” and start over!

Howard L. articulated the issues and situations very well in post #8 and it deserves rereading.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:15 AM   #14
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Who is on the Ethics and Grievance committee?? Is this published somewhere and I missed it?? Or is this some secret tribunal ??
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