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Old 01-21-2007, 10:56 PM   #71
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Old 01-21-2007, 10:59 PM   #72
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My Parents Hear The Same

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Originally Posted by bfred
If this passes, we will have saved ourselves $70.00 and we can concentrate on FMCA functions. We feel it is a lot better club anyway. Not near the polictics of WBCCI. As far as the statement"all MHs look the same" I could say the same thing about AS trailers as most outsiders can't tell you the difference between the models. As an AS motorhome owner, I have taken the time to tour a lot of the AS trailers and become educated instead of knocking trailer owners. I get so fed up with AS classic and trailer owners telling me, I don't have a real AS. We never hear that at a FMCA rally where the average cost of a MH is $350.000.00. strange isn't it?
When my folks first purchased their (used) 2001 gas Land Yacht MH they took a trip up into the White Mountains of AZ (I think) to check out an Airstream only campground. They told me they were treated as outsiders because they did not own a traditional silver bullet any longer. The attendant that took them around was friendly and helpful, but the folks that had sites there were not or were down right hostile. The attendant told my folks the park had just recently been opened up to the non-classic MH due to decline in members with the traditional trailers. It was a great disappointment to my folks who paid a bit extra to continue to own a product manufactured by Airstream to be treated as non -Airstream owners. Now, my folks were not WBCCI members at that time and vowed never to become members after this experience. But, they gave us their silver bullet when they purchased their Land Yacht, we joined the WBCCI New England Unit and fell in love with the lifestyle. So, we paid for their first year membership - in the WBCCI and the New England Unit. They only can attend an event or two a year with our group as they live in AZ but they have a blast with our unit when they can get to our functions.

So the bottom-line is how folks are treated seems to depend on the unit they are associated with. Oh, btw you are welcome to join the New England Unit - I promise we will treat you right.
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Old 01-21-2007, 11:21 PM   #73
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I don't get it? Why is the Four Winds any more or less of an issue than the Airstream Sprinter Westfalia? The SW isn't made at the Airstream factory - it's simply a Westfalia "Airstream edition." Yet, the IBT isn't promoting an amendment to allow the Westfalia, and those of you against rebadging a Four Winds haven't opposed the Westfalia. It seems to be a non-issue, but it is no different from the Four Winds. I'm surprised the IBT even bothered with an amendment. Since the WBCCI Constitution gives the IBT to authority alone to interpret the Constitution why wouldn't they just make an executive decision and mandate that it qualifies? Or simply ignore it as an issue like they did the Westfalia?
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Old 01-21-2007, 11:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Forrest
I don't get it? Why is the Four Winds any more or less of an issue than the Airstream Sprinter Westfalia? The SW isn't made at the Airstream factory - it's simply a Westfalia "Airstream edition." Yet, the IBT isn't promoting an amendment to allow the Westfalia, and those of you against rebadging a Four Winds haven't opposed the Westfalia. It seems to be a non-issue, but it is no different from the Four Winds. I'm surprised the IBT even bothered with an amendment. Since the WBCCI Constitution gives the IBT to authority alone to interpret the Constitution why wouldn't they just make an executive decision and mandate that it qualifies? Or simply ignore it as an issue like they did the Westfalia?
Excellent point.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:18 AM   #75
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Four Winds MoHos are not Airstream products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest
I don't get it? Why is the Four Winds any more or less of an issue than the Airstream Sprinter Westfalia? The SW isn't made at the Airstream factory - it's simply a Westfalia "Airstream edition." Yet, the IBT isn't promoting an amendment to allow the Westfalia, and those of you against rebadging a Four Winds haven't opposed the Westfalia. It seems to be a non-issue, but it is no different from the Four Winds. I'm surprised the IBT even bothered with an amendment. Since the WBCCI Constitution gives the IBT to authority alone to interpret the Constitution why wouldn't they just make an executive decision and mandate that it qualifies? Or simply ignore it as an issue like they did the Westfalia?
Hi Forrest:

The difference is the Airstream Sprinter Westfalia is sold and serviced by Airstream authorized dealers; it is an Airstream product. The Four Winds motorhomes, by contrast, are sold and serviced by Four Winds International dealers; they are not Airstream products. The separate manufacturers and distribution networks make this difference real and constitutionally material.

Airstream Chairman Larry Huttle emphasized this difference at the IBT Mid-Winter Meeting by repeatedly stating that Four Winds motorhomes ARE NOT and WILL NOT BE Airstreams products (as is the Airstream Sprinter Westfalia you asked about). Even an IBT executive order cannot change the identity of the manufacturer of Four Winds motorhomes: the Four Winds International Division of Thor Industries, Inc. (not Airstream).

This difference is so fundamental that only a membership approved Amemdment to the WBCCI's core document, the Constitution, can implement this sleight of hand. The language of the IBT proposed amendment to the WBCCI Constitution recognizes, retains, yet overcomes this difference as follows:

“I move that the International Board of Trustees bring forth to the WBCCI delegates at the June, 2007, Delegates Meeting to amend the WBCCI International Constitution to include the words after “manufactured by Airstream, Inc.” as follows: “as well as the Class A motorhomes manufactured by the Four Winds International Division of Thor Industries, Inc. The Class A models of Four Winds motorhomes will be labeled “Airstream Edition” at their respective factory or by an authorized dealership in order to make their owners eligible to remain or become WBCCI members.”

The above proposal does not rebadge a Four Winds to be an Airstream. Larry Huttle made it repeatedly clear at the IBT Mid-Winter Meeting that these supplementally labeled Four Winds ARE NOT Airstreams. Instead, the proposal creates a mere label that can be plastered on a motorhome by any Four Winds authorized dealership at which an IBT member finds a Four Winds Class A to his liking. Heck, Four Winds dealers will probably have these labels on rolls, ready to be applied just like toilet paper.


The transparency of this hoax is made clear in the last sentence, which states the ONLY purpose of the label is "to make their owners elgible to remain or become WBCCI members." So any Jim, Don or Jerry off the street can walk into any Four Winds dealership, buy an motorhome, instruct the dealer to slap on an "Airstream Edition" label, and immediately become entitled to join the WBCCI. How Airstream related is that?

If this amendment is approved, the WBCCI might be inundated by owners of Four Winds Class A MoHos that have freshly applied "Airstream Edition" labels. There is nothing in the proposed amendment that limits its application only to Four Winds MoHos sold after it becomes effective. Under the proposed language, all existing Four Winds Class A owners will become elgible to be a WBCCI member if they simply slap an "Airstream Edition" label on their present motorhome.

If the IBT was truly interested in increasing membership, they would have proposed each Unit gets a roll of "Airstream Edition" labels to hand out to anyone who has a RV and wants to join the WBCCI. Peel and stick: presto, instant WBCCI member eligibility!! What is the difference?

The only difference is that the above IBT proposal is limited to Class A motorhomes. And guess which group within the WBCCI has the greatest concentration of Class A motorhomes? IBT members. All they are doing is feathering their own nest, and to hell with the general membership who owns any other type of genuine Airstream product.

The IBT is proposing to create a totally new membership class that will favor themselves to the practical exclusion of the majority of WBCCI members. In my opinion, this proposal puts their personal self-interest above the long term good of the club, and its sheer audacity should entitle every IBT member to a brass anatomical award for brazenness. The IBT vote approving the proposed Constitutional amendment for membership vote was 18-0.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:37 AM   #76
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well put fred!

and are they to be labeled 'airstream editions' or 'wbcci editions' ?

it would seem a/s corp would have to give approval for usage of the a/s name...

shacksmans post makes sense but suggests 'wbcci' editions not a/s...

that is probably in the audio tapes...anyone?

and as aaron has noted all the a/s and argosy variations from the silver tube were made, sold, and serviced by airstream....

THEY ARE REAL airstreams.

forrest...

all of the 'sprinter van' airstreams come from germany to the usa partially complete....

the interstate and parkway models have the most content added...
as in the complete rv interiors and us certified systems, while the shell and drivetrain are essentially complete prior2 import.

the westphalia is sold in europe as a 'james cook' model rv.
it has the least content added (u.s. certified systems) as little as 5-10%.

BUT it does roll through the jackson center factory. it was/is sold by a/s dealers....

it carries an a/s warranty and is serviced at select a/s dealers....

AND the model has been dc'd for now....

as fred so well put it, the officers club is making this move for their own needs

and not only does it hurt the real wally club it hurts the AIRSTREAM brand and a/s dealer network...

larry huttle has the made up title of 'chairman for the dealer network'
so he has to get on record as being against this...

i have to believe that corp for a/s and thor realizes just how selfish this officer group has become.

the question is, can they confuse and misdirect the general wbcci membership enough to win the vote?

i can imagine the campaign now...

"vote this in or risk your unit going under"
"a/s has let us down but 4winds is offering us help"
"with 4 winds wbcci membership will grow!"

i know of 3 ways to pass gas but the 4th wind escapes me for now...

cheers
2air'
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:03 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddy_hollow
Unfortunately the precedence of allowing other products into the club (Argosy, the prior motorhomes, and the basecamp) was already set prior to this recent product re-badging incident. I doubt the other clubs have had their prior management put their clubs into the same spot.......
Again I will reiterate all of those were/are Airstream manufactured products the Four Winds products ARE NOT. At least the Argosy looks like a Classic Airstream just painted. And FWIW in many ways to me is a better representative in that it had many, many forward thinking inovations that were actually incorporated in the Airstream line as time went on. Somone has pointed out that the Westafalia in not produced by Airstream...This is true and I was not aware of that. But I suspect it makes up less than 1% of the membership. Anytime you start to dilute something you are asking for issues. Someone else has pointed out the situation at Traveler's Rest...it all boils down to numbers. This is issue is being pushed thru by a handful of people to suit their own needs. It is not what the general club population wants. In fact I spoke with a long time member of my unit last night and they were not even aware of the issue. When I mentioned it they were more than a little upset. I live over 2 hours from where my unit generally gathers for business meetings and rallys. I also work on the road 48-50 weeks out of the year which makes it hard to attend traditional unit functions. This is one of the reasons I do enjoy the WBCCI no matter where I travel I can usually link up with fellow Airstream members. I can meet up with SOB owners at every campground I stay in. Airstreams you have to hunt for. Outside of a couple of rallys I seldom stay in a campground with another Airstream.

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Old 01-22-2007, 04:54 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoonc
Again I will reiterate all of those were/are Airstream manufactured products the Four Winds products ARE NOT. At least the Argosy looks like a Classic Airstream just painted. And FWIW in many ways to me is a better representative in that it had many, many forward thinking inovations that were actually incorporated in the Airstream line as time went on. Somone has pointed out that the Westafalia in not produced by Airstream...This is true and I was not aware of that.
When we visited Jackson Center last year, trailers and some of the last mohos were being manufactured in the main plant. Base Camps were coming out of a smaller building about 100-200 yards to the northwest (no tour available ) and some fairly rough looking Sprinter chassis were lined up next to a building just south of the main plant (across the state highway).
I recall these as pretty bare Sprinter chassis, although I could be mistaken. It almost seems like they were getting in the bare panel wagons, and having to saw their own holes in the roof and remove the sections for any side windows. Again I may be mistaken. I didn't pay that much attention to it, but recall thinking that most of the transformation from facade to camper was happenning at JC.
I think the tour guide mentioned that they were sent elsewhere to be painted, once they were finished. Again, I may be way off.
Also, I recall the guide saying that AS would be making some large vehicles on the motorhome chassis, but these would be basically luxury suites for Nascar events or some such thing, with a bunch of seats on the roof and a ginoumous flat panel display along the side.
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:04 AM   #79
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I don't support the notion of slapping on Airstream editions and calling them Airstreams. If the product is supported by Airstream mangement and serviced by Airstream, irregardless of where it is actually built, we (the Club) should not be picky, we need members.


The net of all these points, as I read them.

- Thor can do whatever they want with the Airstream brand, since they own it. But it sounds like Larry H is trying to be the good steward.

- IF Thor decided to badge a product and call it an Airstream (ala the Westie) they could. If the products are not seen as good candiates for entry into the WBCCI, grass roots efforts and SHAREHOLDER voices are the way to influence a public company not the IBT. It's very clear the IBT is not looking out for the best interests of the masses, but only the few.

- The IBT are self serving and useless. If there are poor stewards, this group certainly qualifies.


Let's build a new club all around the Airstream Brand and call it the Airstream Travel club. Seek support from Airstream for the club and build a constitution and rotating governance board. The opposition is not Airstream. Heck, the orig club is the perfect place to recruit



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Old 01-22-2007, 08:21 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddy_hollow
If the product is supported by Airstream mangement and serviced by Airstream, irregardless of where it is actually built, we (the Club) should not be picky, we need members.

Doug
The "Airstream Edition" will not be serviced by Airstream, and I doubt they will support it.....
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:23 AM   #81
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I attend all of my unit's rallies and monthly dinners. I try to listen to the views of the members and pass them on. The only negative feelings I have encountered has been on this forum. We have a hard time getting people to represent the Regions as officers. Untill we have full slates and people fighting to become Region officers, please don't be critical of us that are trying our best to pass on to the delegates the issues that they can vote up or down as they see fit.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:23 AM   #82
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Bob Moyers
1st VP Region 5
Member of Kentucky Unit

I attend all of my unit's rallies and monthly dinners. I try to listen to the views of the members and pass them on. The only negative feelings I have encountered has been on this forum. We have a hard time getting people to represent the Regions as officers. Untill we have full slates and people fighting to become Region officers, please don't be critical of us that are trying our best to pass on to the delegates the issues that they can vote up or down as they see fit.
Bob -- I think that we all appreciate the time and effort that our volunteers put into carrying out the duties of the club, from badge-maker to IBT officer. That's not where the criticism is. The criticism is that the IBT has introduced a motion that would completely transform the WBCCI into another type of club, without considering any alternatives. The negative criticism we're hearing on this is coming from many people who are just learning about the problem and the proposed solution. They never had a chance to talk to their unit and region leaders or offer other suggesions before the IBT meeting because they were blind-sided. The reason for the decline in membership is that the club is either not asking, not listening to, or not hearing what it's members and potential members want before taking action.

You were at the meeting, did you not hear Past President Jim Franklin say that those of us lower-ranking members who have opinions about changes in the club should go buy a Winnebago and find another club? That's pretty harsh criticism coming from an IBT that was at that very moment working to approve non-Airstreams into an Airstream-only club. Not one IBT member moved to censure Mr. Franklin on his comment. Can you understand why some of us are asking, Do the members of IBT represent the full membership, or do they represent themselves?
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #83
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Welcome Bob, and let's talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boblee5244
Bob Moyers, 1st VP Region 5, Member of Kentucky Unit

I attend all of my unit's rallies and monthly dinners. I try to listen to the views of the members and pass them on. The only negative feelings I have encountered has been on this forum. We have a hard time getting people to represent the Regions as officers. Untill we have full slates and people fighting to become Region officers, please don't be critical of us that are trying our best to pass on to the delegates the issues that they can vote up or down as they see fit.
Hi Bob:

Welcome! Thank you for joining in, posting, and opening a dialogue here. Yes, the IBT and WBCCI officers do many good things and should be commended for many of their actions. Kudos to the IBT for abolishing (11 for, 6 against, 1 abstention) restricted parking for members who bring animals to International, for unamiously approving the WDCU flag, for picking Madison, WI for the 2009 International Rally, for approving a sticker for Lifetime members, and for other business actions taken at their Mid-Winter Meeting.

In addition to this web site, you may also find some negative feeling and criticism on the Club's web site, WBCCI.org, along with praise - for quickly posting reports of IBT actions, for example. That's all to the good for an informed membership and an informed leadership.

One reason you see some negative comments and criticism here is because this non-WBCCI controlled forum is one of the few places where such criticism can be stated. The WBCCI has corked all such discussion in its official publications (but not on its web site, and is to be commended for that). There is no "Letters to the Editor" feature in the Blue Beret because WBCCI leaders do not want to see or read any negative comments in print. The BB is a one way communications organ, from the top down but not from the bottom up. It's a pronouncement media, not a feedback mechanism.

You will also see on this Forums some very valuable comments that you will never hear at any WBCCI rally or monthly dinner: from those who decided NOT to join the WBCCI for various reasons. Please read and comprehend what they have to say about certain WBCCI traditions and practices that kept them from joining. There are a slew of brand new Airstream owners who are looking for informal camping, gatherings and travel experiences. They are disturbed by comments such as Jim Franklins's remark last week that if people don't like jackets and flags, they can join another club. Well, many of these people are staying away, and you will never hear why at any WBCCI rally or monthly dinner.

If the WBCCI leadership wants to reverse the Club's steady membership decline, they must also begin to listen to what potential new members who did not join state as their reasons why. You will find such statements here, so please read them and try to act on them by offering new Airstream owners what they are looking for in a travel club.

Thank you for the courage to publically identify yourself in what might, at first, seem to be an uncomfortable environment. I truly appreciate you doing that and sincerely hope you will visit often and taken part in many discussions. We can learn as much from your views and reasoning as you can from ours. I hope that many more Regional and National WBCCI officers will also join in the dialogues here and at www.wbcci.org, where they seldom appear. Thank you!
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:33 AM   #84
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I believe somebody else addressed that in one of these threads.
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My hand is in the air.

I see that slowly but surley, a few replies have seen the direction taken and simply resolve "Thats how it goes"

I am guilty of the fact, I have sworn that I always will own an Airstream but if there were an Airstream MH with slideouts...........

Hey, maybe an Mandalairstream for me too. My wife would cut into the line to buy a MH with slideouts. As a matter of fact, can you guys keep it down.
As soon as she finds out that she can have a MH with slideouts and still meet the "Airstream or bust" criteria dictated by me, she will have our Classic on the auction block.

Shhhhh.....
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