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Old 11-29-2009, 06:15 AM   #57
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I will de-rail my own thread about International

The WBCCI International numbers play out like this:

If one thinks about it, it’s really worst than shown. Let’s see, we as a club have our “so called leaders” spend $125,000.00 to go around and “promote” the International and Region Rallies along with some Special Event Rallies. But for now, let’s just stick with International and the travel budget.

Even if you only write off ½ of their travel budget to push International that’s $62,500.00 spent to “Promote” a rally that is already loosing money. So, take the $62,500.00 divided by the number of people attending the International rally (for easy numbers we’ll use 800 trailers) $62,500.00 divided by 800 = $78.12 per-trailer for their “traveling promotion” add to that the lost on International (we’ll take the middle of $50,000.00 in loss) $50,000.00 divided by 800 = $62.50 per-trailer cost. Add the two together $78.12 + $62.50 = $140.62 total “LOSS” per-trailer!!!

So, now take the $140.62 and minus it from the cost to attend International (this year $480.00) and you'll have what some people are "really" paying to go for a 3 weeks( 480.00-140.62 = $339.38 / 21 days = $16.16 ) Not a bad "daily" rate if you can get it.

I'm starting to think there's no real good solution to this problem with our leadership.

If you don't re-up, money drops, they keep spending, "Club Dies".

If you don't go to International, they spend even more per-trailer, they suck the money dry, "Club Dies".

If your unit withholds their money, people working at HQ loose thier job, money dry's up, they keep spending, "Club Dies".

Force change is needed, by "Hook or Crook".

Paul Waddell
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:15 AM   #58
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Sorry, SilverTwink....

I feel very strongly about the point that a Mod on the WBCCI forum must be a WBCCI member... if you want to be involved, then JOIN the club... Nothing against you - it's the state you're on the TEAM - then why don't you officially become part of the team.. then no issue.

I just put that Cortez piece together and googled Cortez... holy crap... Frank - you might be onto something there...very interesting....

But.... this thread is about more than the WBCCI forum.

My points were published here to get a list going of improvements that this WBCCI Improvements Working Group could take, prioritize with inputs from the WBCCI members, and take to the powers to be.

It's too bad people have to grab on to certain points rather than just let them be and let the list grow.. Paul - I hope people copy it, then keep adding to it and let the list grow... back in October, I put that list together in about 25 minutes, while sitting watching TV with the wife.. so, I'm sure others of you out there have more ideas...

Keep the list growing. Then, maybe for each point, this forum could help us vote on each point in the future.


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Old 11-29-2009, 06:17 AM   #59
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To add to Rob's list of suggestions: if my experience is typical, the membership application process needs to be streamlined. I joined through a local unit, who has a very helpful membership chair. I was welcomed into the local unit immediately. Still, it took several weeks to get my numbers from the mothership. (And wow, do they send a lot of instructions on how to mount them.)

That seems like its too long. If it was camping season and I wanted to attend a rally, waiting that period of time could make a big difference.

It was curious to read in Blue Beret the defense behind everyone wearing the blue blazers and ties at International - it makes the event look pretty. I guess that's their perogative - but heck, I don't even wear a tie to weddings anymore, and avoid wearing one at work at all costs. Not sure I even own a blue blazer - but I don't need that to camp with my local unit.

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Old 11-29-2009, 06:18 AM   #60
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Frank I am not sure what exactly you said in the private area, but what I find difficult is that everyone wants to say something, then after they've said it, want to go running back to the essence of this thread.

As a granted freedom, you exercised your rights to leave. You were not asked to leave, so I am basically going to assume you violated the TOS if you had any posts edited or removed and perhaps you threw the baby out with the bathwater. Bottom line if you want change the place for it you are correct is in the member area and it must be kept civil (no drive by type posts, no jabs, etc). A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech. What I find many times is that these threads become nothing more than a gripe session with little constructive conversations. AF does allow more to continue, that is their right to allow the envelope to be pushed.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do on the subject and though we don't fully agree I do respect your opinion and choices you've made.

***edit to add***

Rob I thought the rest of your list was constructive, we'll just have to agree to disagree on modding the public areas of the thread. I don't see why if we allow non-members to the site why non-members can't volunteer to help in the public area, but again, I respect your position on the subject. Notice that I'm not replying or answering anything toward the club in general, I am simply discussing forum operations on parts where I volunteer when questions or comments are being made.
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
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Old 11-29-2009, 06:23 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by rideair View Post
I would like to suggest a “Closed Door Meeting” to only the “Progressive WBCCI Units” at the next WBCCI International Rally to discuss the future of the club. Much like the IBT has their “private meetings” to discuss the state and future of the club, I think it’s time for the membership of the more progressive units (that are truly the only hope this club has) to meet and discuss how they can help lead the WBCCI out of the forest.

I suggest “only” members of those “progressive” units be allowed to par-take in the meeting. “No” EC, IBT, Regional VP’s or members from other units should be allowed (could be IBT plants). This meeting would not be to discuss “a new club”, but changes that can be brought forth by this group to lobby the IBT to make the needed changes to the club with the understanding, if the changes are not met, that action can/will be taken to remove them from office or the withholding of entire unit dues to the WBCCI.

My guess, many of you at your different unit rallies have already had the discussion of the needed changes around the campfire. This will give you the chance to meet others of like mind from different units and to have this discussion at a much broader/wider level with action plans moving forward.

So, how does one determine “who’s” a progressive unit. I think the list would be easy to some degree, WDCU, NEU, Denver, 4CU, New York Metro, El Camino Real California, and a few others. Or a vote could be taken to “elect” no more than 10 or so units to this meeting. Each of the elected units could send a given amount of people to represent them and their ideas at the meeting. I would also ask that members only come to the meeting if they are truly ready to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work that will be needed. Don’t show up just to listen, bitch or pile on. Be ready to step-up and take on the work (time) that will be needed to force the changes which are required at this time in our club. We know what the problems are, now we just need to fix them.

I understand there could be many that would love to come and listen, but, like that discussion around the campfire between a few “forward thinking members” it’s not time to open it up to everyone yet.

I can see the headline now in the Blue Beret. “Meeting of progressive Units, Saves the International Rally low numbers with many members showing up for progressive meeting”

It’s time to either “Lead, Follow or Get out of the way”.


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Old 11-29-2009, 07:08 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post

A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech.
Maybe the fact that so many are pissed off is a good indication of trouble. Keeping it civil is a fine concept but hard to do when everything is always sugar coated and our leadership think everything is just fine. As I said earlier it would be great to have this taking place on the WB forums but that is just not possible.

Silver you should just join you seem to have a your feet firmly fixed on the deck of a sinking ship. That way we can both go down together, for I am going down with the ship. I am fortunate though, I have a very well built life raft. Perhaps you will join us around the campfire and experience it.
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Old 11-29-2009, 07:43 AM   #63
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Add me as a person voting against having Greg remain as provider of the WBCCI forums. I have reviewed his personal history (available on the web) and find he is not a very nice person, who is just joined the club at the last moment so that he could used the platform for personal gain. His bulling actions on the forum and against Save Wally and his personal dealings with his foreign customers, tells you he is not a person WBCCI should trust. He failed to renew his membership even this year until he found it was necessary to pay so he could file personal grievances against Tim and Leo on the same day. I do not see why WBCCI management and Charlie Burke can not see the truth about Greg. The only reason I can think of is, some people are getting a kick back from Greg. I have no proof of that, but it is the only excuse that seems to make any sense. Who did Silvertwinkie talk to, and what did he offer as a reward, to become a non-member moderator on the WBCCI forum. Charlie would not allow many members of WBCCI to be moderators, when they applied.

And what does this have to do with anything this thread was originally started for. This whole hijack is simply a way to divert the interest of the concerned members away from the basic issue of what we can do to make the leaders recognize the boat is sinking and they should stop dancing on the deck around the nation wasting the club's money. They have rejecting all member initiatives to improve the member benefits offered by the club. They have rejected all initiatives to make the national programs more attractive to younger working family members. They have rejected all initiatives to reduce to amount of money allotted to them for their Nationwide touring. They have rejected most initiatives to modernize the communications within the club. They fail to participate with the members in any two way communications (even on their own forum). They keep close company and listen to only their International Class of membership friends.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:02 AM   #64
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back to the topic at hand...

It seems to me that some sort of online collaboration is the way to go here. We use various things with our customers at work all the time as well as have our own preferred internal online meeting system; all have become regular tools and are quite valuable.

Obviously free is best. From poking around on the internet for such software / capability, I think is the best. It's based on open source (which is always a plus in my book) and will allow 20 participants to join in a conf. for free. It says there's a teleconference option as well for those that can't / don't want to participate via computer. Obviously they can't see what's being shared, but at least they can hear the conversation. There's bigger options at as well for larger meetings but of course there's a cost associated.

Since my role at this point regarding governance of any WBCCI unit is none, I don't feel that it's my place to push the issue much more. I hope that someone with enough say picks up the ball here and sets something up and rallies other leaders to band together in the old spirit of coming together to show the interest and desire of a large group in order to sway an existing line of thought which has become stuck in its ways.
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Old 11-29-2009, 09:02 AM   #65
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Staying on topic and defining a next step....
I have read and agree each of the points that Rob has set forth. Now with a list of issues, I think figuring out and defining the next step is crucial. It is one thing to have a few passionate individuals on a forum thread but we need numbers to show how many people we have. Would it be possible or even feasible to have this put out in the Unit news letters, have the members give it a thumbs up or down and to establish representatives for this movement. Or have a sign up list/petition. Maybe I am going too fast and the issues need to be further hashed out.

I just would not want this to become talk. I firmly believe that we need to show that the members are behind us on this even if it was 1000 out of the 6000. We must remind ourselves that a lot of members do not want the controversy, they just want to camp and have their heads in the sand. (As a new member I don't blame them but if the club is to survive we need to act.)
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:50 AM   #66
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Moderators I ask this thread be shutdown


If you could do me the favor, since I started this thread, I’m requesting to “shut it down”. It seems we got a little off topic and though I don't agree with a private person owning the WBCCI forums, it appears somethings said on this thread has already started to appear on other forums. It was not the intent of this thread to start a WBCCI forums, WBCCI bashing thread, just a thread of how to maybe solve the problems of the over spending and lack of leadership with in the WBCCI. Again, we know the problems, "HOW DO WE FORCE THEM TO FIX IT".

I’ll let others solve the problems of the WBCCI.

Paul Waddell
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:01 AM   #67
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Rather than close the thread, how about just deleting the posts which are off topic?
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:11 AM   #68
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Sometimes, some people, who have a big gun, wish to lead.

Other times, some wish to lead so that they can have the big gun, and then use it.

In either case, the guns should be outlawed.

The club should be run by those that have a genuine interest in helping others enjoy Airstreaming, as it was originally intended.

The club should never be a place to seek power and authority, for any ego, or self serving purpose.

Dictatorship, should not "ever" be associated with the WBCCI.

Leadership, by those that really care is the only way to go.

How to get there, can only be determined by those that are dedicated to the real Airstreaming and all it's associated fun and programs.

It's never easy, to reorganize any club, once it has gone astray, but with a lot of hard work, from a lot of nice dedicated Airstream owners, I believe, it can be done, and with peace and harmony.

Probably a select few would fight the changes, but if the changes are for the betterment of the club and benifits to it's members, then there is no better time to start, than now.

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Old 11-29-2009, 11:19 AM   #69
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Don't really care.

If they want to delete some posts, that's fine, shutdown it down, that's fine too.

As always, whenever you try to discuss anything with the WBCCI or its Leadership, the off-topic, WBCCI bashing, Leadership Bashing, non-members saying the club sucks, I had a bad time at this rally, I hate berets, BLA, Bla, bla, stuff starts "EVERYTIME" with-in the first 25-30 post.

Everything has problems, again, WE KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE!!


I don't know the RNR, State of Ohio Laws, The Non-Profit laws of mis-managemnt, etc....

I was trying to start a discussion as to "HOW" a group of people could get together and "FORCE" the needed changes before it's too late.

At this point, I'll go back to my hole in the ground.

Paul Waddell
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:32 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:

How can the site be a failure after 6 months? ...
Well, for starters, I won't sign up because I think the moderation is totally out of control. Totally. Out. Of. Control.

I like the idea of some out of channel discussion. There seems to be a pretty big disconnect in communications, and worse, it seems as though the officers are actively discouraging the members from communicating among themselves.
Putting it behind closed doors of some sort nullifies the most common objection, that being making the club look bad (although to my mind the 125K does that with no help at all from the members).

I hope you/we (rideair et al) pursue it.

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