First order of biz get G Gibson off the control of the forum.
He is using it for his financial gain.
He blocks users deletes posts.
Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:
How can the site be a failure after 6 months? I think it's a little premature to make such a bold statement, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. You may be right in the end, you might be wrong, but IMHO, it's way too early to say anything like this.....
You can like Greg, hate Greg, it's your call, but please enlighten all of us where the gain has been to date? Projections when he will not only recoup his expenditures, but also be to the positive on it? Do you have any facts to support there has been 1 cent gained so far? Please share the source of your claim LI Pets. According to you the site is a failure, so how is he making a cent of a failed site...you are shooting down your own points....
Again, LI, please share with all of us all the conversations that took place in making decisions to moderate posts in which you participated in that process? While you are at it, please share with all of us how many conversations you were a part of on this forum when it comes to moderating posts and making member decisions.
If you're honest, your answers should be:
It is too early to tell
I have no real data to support income or any type of current or future gains to be made
I have not participated in any discussions in regard to moderation or member management on the WBCCI forum or the AF sites to have any real knowledge of these situations.
If this site is going to allow a lot of this kind of content, I think it's only fair to provide some balance where balance can be provided. You'll note that I have not commented on many other aspects as I have no idea what the right answers are, yet you don't see me tearing folks down in the manner in which a select few here have done.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:
How can the site be a failure after 6 months? I think it's a little premature to make such a bold statement, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. You may be right in the end, you might be wrong, but IMHO, it's way too early to say anything like this.....
You can like Greg, hate Greg, it's your call, but please enlighten all of us where the gain has been to date? Projections when he will not only recoup his expenditures, but also be to the positive on it? .
Are you that naive?
Who has ads are on the left side?
Who claims to be sponsoring the forum?
.
Quote:
Do you have any facts to support there has been 1 cent gained so far? Please share the source of your claim LI Pets. According to you the site is a failure, so how is he making a cent of a failed site...you are shooting down your own points.....
You need to read here more and SW,
it is a failure in partisapation, no argument there.
As to finanical gain---All the advertising and making him appear that Airstream is endorsing him.
look at his sites which has links from the forum numerous times.
Again, LI, please share with all of us all the conversations that took place in making decisions to moderate posts in which you participated in that process? .
Are U unaware of the grievience that was filed against him for that very issue? see this "Gibson for his using the Miserable Users Hack - preventing me from seeing the WBCCI forums"
.
Quote:
It is too early to tell
I have no real data to support income or any type of current or future gains to be made.
It's not to early the tribe has spoken.
Data sure send me the google ad words stats and number of clicks to his used dealer site.
This should give you an idea of the person you're defending, please read all of it.
Ps R U trying to derail this thread?
I will not let it happen beyond this last post.
__________________
Bob
'77 Sovereign Intl 31' CB '07 GMC 4x4 2500HD EC 8.1 Allision six | Bedrug | Softopper WBCCI Time's a-changing Say no to Lawrence Welk attitudes
WBCCI/VAC 11411 Metro NY
Who has ads are on the left side?
Who claims to be sponsoring the forum?
.
You need to read here more and SW,
it is a failure in partisapation, no argument there.
As to finanical gain---All the advertising and making him appear that Airstream is endorsing him.
look at his sites which has links from the forum numerous times.
.
Are U unaware of the grievience that was filed against him for that very issue? see this "Gibson for his using the Miserable Users Hack on me - preventing me from seeing the WBCCI forums"
.
It's not to early the tribe has spoken.
Data sure send me the google ad words stats and number of clicks to his used dealer site.
This should give you an idea of the person you're defending, please read all of it.
What is your point about the ads, I don't get it? AF has ads, AF is making money? What specific data do you have to support this charge of all the money he is currently making? Please don't say look at the save wally site (which by the way has what 50 members with 3 doing most of the posting?!), because frankly it would be like me trying to get world news from the National Enquirer.
Airstream does endorse WBCCI....and guess what they actively participate on the WBCCI forum too. Again, you can see that (fact) by going here:
I'm not a member, and don't fully understand the grievance process, but there was a conclusion made by someone other than Greg I trust? The outcome was not as you would have expected or liked? Not really my issue, I'm simply there to help out...when I was slamming WBCCI hard folks said, "Twink, change only happens when you roll up your sleeves and get in there." I was reluctant, but figured since they made such a bold step, I would try. I have found the WBCCI folks to be very open and accommodating, but then again, I am on the team, so I may see more than you might when it comes to day to day operation of certain areas of the site. I have ZERO access to internal club issues or issues between members.
What "tribe" are you referring to? A select handful of folks? Give me specifics, not generalizations Bob. There are over 700 members on the site, Airstream is on the site and though it's postings and membership are nowhere near AF, it's about 6 months old.... Would it be nice to have more and greater participation? Sure, but it's not dead over there either.
I am not defending Greg, I don't have to, I'm defending the site. What Leo, Greg and anyone else does is their business. I don't stick my nose in other people's business as I have no dog in these kinds of things. I work within a team of folks similar to that of what is done here on this site, and here to, many folks don't always agree with the calls, but the calls are made nonetheless.
A lot of things get said, and I am merely asking for more real and specific data to support your claims than pointing me to the National Enquirer of unofficial Airstream/WBCCI Websites.....
I am not trying to derail anything. If you'll notice, I am responding, not initiating, but I agree, PM me or feel free to start another thread, I'd be happy to share more relevant fact.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
As I said I will not allow U to derail this thread any further by replying.
Start a new thread about it.
__________________
Bob
'77 Sovereign Intl 31' CB '07 GMC 4x4 2500HD EC 8.1 Allision six | Bedrug | Softopper WBCCI Time's a-changing Say no to Lawrence Welk attitudes
WBCCI/VAC 11411 Metro NY
As I said I will not allow U to derail this thread any further by replying.
Start a new thread about it.
Feel free Bob. I don't see a need, but will gladly participate in any thread you create on the subject. I don't see this as me initiating anything, just providing and responding with some facts and asking some questions.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
Okay I was so happy in reading what Atabolis had to say. It reminded me of why this club is so great and why it needs us to all get it back on track and Silvertwinky had to pipe in....
So here you go(sorry Paul, highjacking) I think the WBCCI Forum is a total joke. I officially had my membership to it removed so that I would not be counted toward the 700 registered members. Oddly anytime I go over to that forum there is CBurke, Cortez and me the guest. No one else. That is sad. Very sad. Your man Greg goes by the name Cortez super administrator. That is a very bad title. Look into the history of Cortez and you find he was not a very good person. He was responsible for enslaving millions of people in the New World and I wonder if a bit of foreshadowing is not present in him picking that title. He feels compelled to reply to every single post made and if he has nothing constructive to add he inserts some stupid song or nostolgic moment. The WBCCI forum is nothing but pure propaganda. All the posts are sanitized and deleted to cause no waves. Only one side of the coin is allowed to be seen. The description of that forum as a failure is accurate and honest. It is yet another sign of leadership out of touch with the wishes of the members.
Just to ground this discussion a bit since it is now focused on the Wb forum.... Forum (legal), designated space for public expression in the USA. you do not have that on the WB forum.
Sorry but I too have issue of where the money goes. I too have issues with you moderating and not being a club member. I am part of the force working to change this. The deal Cburke and cortez made with the IBT is a bad one. It will come to an end, trust me on that.
Can we go back to discussing how to have a town meeting?
I just want to add something... It is a shame we cannot be having this discussion on the clubs forum. That is where it belongs not here. Unfortunately that is not possible. Paul' s initial post would have been removed due to "harsh words" When he complains the reply woulds be "it is not what you say it is how you are saying it." All this dirty laundry belongs on the WB forum not here. The fact that cannot happen is another clear picture of why the WB forum is a failure.
Now let's go back to figuring out how a town meeting can be held.
The WBCCI International numbers play out like this:
If one thinks about it, it’s really worst than shown. Let’s see, we as a club have our “so called leaders” spend $125,000.00 to go around and “promote” the International and Region Rallies along with some Special Event Rallies. But for now, let’s just stick with International and the travel budget.
Even if you only write off ½ of their travel budget to push International that’s $62,500.00 spent to “Promote” a rally that is already loosing money. So, take the $62,500.00 divided by the number of people attending the International rally (for easy numbers we’ll use 800 trailers) $62,500.00 divided by 800 = $78.12 per-trailer for their “traveling promotion” add to that the lost on International (we’ll take the middle of $50,000.00 in loss) $50,000.00 divided by 800 = $62.50 per-trailer cost. Add the two together $78.12 + $62.50 = $140.62 total “LOSS” per-trailer!!!
So, now take the $140.62 and minus it from the cost to attend International (this year $480.00) and you'll have what some people are "really" paying to go for a 3 weeks( 480.00-140.62 = $339.38 / 21 days = $16.16 ) Not a bad "daily" rate if you can get it.
I'm starting to think there's no real good solution to this problem with our leadership.
If you don't re-up, money drops, they keep spending, "Club Dies".
If you don't go to International, they spend even more per-trailer, they suck the money dry, "Club Dies".
If your unit withholds their money, people working at HQ loose thier job, money dry's up, they keep spending, "Club Dies".
Force change is needed, by "Hook or Crook".
__________________
Paul Waddell Region 2 VAC Guy WDCU "Past Prez" (In the words of Richard Nixon "You won't have me to kick around anymore!")
I feel very strongly about the point that a Mod on the WBCCI forum must be a WBCCI member... if you want to be involved, then JOIN the club... Nothing against you - it's the principle...you state you're on the TEAM - then why don't you officially become part of the team.. then no issue.
I just put that Cortez piece together and googled Cortez... holy crap... Frank - you might be onto something there...very interesting....
But.... this thread is about more than the WBCCI forum.
My points were published here to get a list going of improvements that this WBCCI Improvements Working Group could take, prioritize with inputs from the WBCCI members, and take to the powers to be.
It's too bad people have to grab on to certain points rather than just let them be and let the list grow.. Paul - I hope people copy it, then keep adding to it and let the list grow... back in October, I put that list together in about 25 minutes, while sitting watching TV with the wife.. so, I'm sure others of you out there have more ideas...
Keep the list growing. Then, maybe for each point, this forum could help us vote on each point in the future.
To add to Rob's list of suggestions: if my experience is typical, the membership application process needs to be streamlined. I joined through a local unit, who has a very helpful membership chair. I was welcomed into the local unit immediately. Still, it took several weeks to get my numbers from the mothership. (And wow, do they send a lot of instructions on how to mount them.)
That seems like its too long. If it was camping season and I wanted to attend a rally, waiting that period of time could make a big difference.
It was curious to read in Blue Beret the defense behind everyone wearing the blue blazers and ties at International - it makes the event look pretty. I guess that's their perogative - but heck, I don't even wear a tie to weddings anymore, and avoid wearing one at work at all costs. Not sure I even own a blue blazer - but I don't need that to camp with my local unit.
Frank I am not sure what exactly you said in the private area, but what I find difficult is that everyone wants to say something, then after they've said it, want to go running back to the essence of this thread.
As a granted freedom, you exercised your rights to leave. You were not asked to leave, so I am basically going to assume you violated the TOS if you had any posts edited or removed and perhaps you threw the baby out with the bathwater. Bottom line if you want change the place for it you are correct is in the member area and it must be kept civil (no drive by type posts, no jabs, etc). A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech. What I find many times is that these threads become nothing more than a gripe session with little constructive conversations. AF does allow more to continue, that is their right to allow the envelope to be pushed.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do on the subject and though we don't fully agree I do respect your opinion and choices you've made.
***edit to add***
Rob I thought the rest of your list was constructive, we'll just have to agree to disagree on modding the public areas of the thread. I don't see why if we allow non-members to the site why non-members can't volunteer to help in the public area, but again, I respect your position on the subject. Notice that I'm not replying or answering anything toward the club in general, I am simply discussing forum operations on parts where I volunteer when questions or comments are being made.
__________________
Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq and millions of others are by far the most popular with about 70 million machines in use worldwide. Macintosh fans note that cockroaches are far more numerous than humans and that numbers alone do not denote a higher life form. -NY Times 11/91
I would like to suggest a “Closed Door Meeting” to only the “Progressive WBCCI Units” at the next WBCCI International Rally to discuss the future of the club. Much like the IBT has their “private meetings” to discuss the state and future of the club, I think it’s time for the membership of the more progressive units (that are truly the only hope this club has) to meet and discuss how they can help lead the WBCCI out of the forest.
I suggest “only” members of those “progressive” units be allowed to par-take in the meeting. “No” EC, IBT, Regional VP’s or members from other units should be allowed (could be IBT plants). This meeting would not be to discuss “a new club”, but changes that can be brought forth by this group to lobby the IBT to make the needed changes to the club with the understanding, if the changes are not met, that action can/will be taken to remove them from office or the withholding of entire unit dues to the WBCCI.
My guess, many of you at your different unit rallies have already had the discussion of the needed changes around the campfire. This will give you the chance to meet others of like mind from different units and to have this discussion at a much broader/wider level with action plans moving forward.
So, how does one determine “who’s” a progressive unit. I think the list would be easy to some degree, WDCU, NEU, Denver, 4CU, New York Metro, El Camino Real California, and a few others. Or a vote could be taken to “elect” no more than 10 or so units to this meeting. Each of the elected units could send a given amount of people to represent them and their ideas at the meeting. I would also ask that members only come to the meeting if they are truly ready to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work that will be needed. Don’t show up just to listen, bitch or pile on. Be ready to step-up and take on the work (time) that will be needed to force the changes which are required at this time in our club. We know what the problems are, now we just need to fix them.
I understand there could be many that would love to come and listen, but, like that discussion around the campfire between a few “forward thinking members” it’s not time to open it up to everyone yet.
I can see the headline now in the Blue Beret. “Meeting of progressive Units, Saves the International Rally low numbers with many members showing up for progressive meeting”
It’s time to either “Lead, Follow or Get out of the way”.
A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech.
Maybe the fact that so many are pissed off is a good indication of trouble. Keeping it civil is a fine concept but hard to do when everything is always sugar coated and our leadership think everything is just fine. As I said earlier it would be great to have this taking place on the WB forums but that is just not possible.
Silver you should just join you seem to have a your feet firmly fixed on the deck of a sinking ship. That way we can both go down together, for I am going down with the ship. I am fortunate though, I have a very well built life raft. Perhaps you will join us around the campfire and experience it.
Add me as a person voting against having Greg remain as provider of the WBCCI forums. I have reviewed his personal history (available on the web) and find he is not a very nice person, who is just joined the club at the last moment so that he could used the platform for personal gain. His bulling actions on the forum and against Save Wally and his personal dealings with his foreign customers, tells you he is not a person WBCCI should trust. He failed to renew his membership even this year until he found it was necessary to pay so he could file personal grievances against Tim and Leo on the same day. I do not see why WBCCI management and Charlie Burke can not see the truth about Greg. The only reason I can think of is, some people are getting a kick back from Greg. I have no proof of that, but it is the only excuse that seems to make any sense. Who did Silvertwinkie talk to, and what did he offer as a reward, to become a non-member moderator on the WBCCI forum. Charlie would not allow many members of WBCCI to be moderators, when they applied.
And what does this have to do with anything this thread was originally started for. This whole hijack is simply a way to divert the interest of the concerned members away from the basic issue of what we can do to make the leaders recognize the boat is sinking and they should stop dancing on the deck around the nation wasting the club's money. They have rejecting all member initiatives to improve the member benefits offered by the club. They have rejected all initiatives to make the national programs more attractive to younger working family members. They have rejected all initiatives to reduce to amount of money allotted to them for their Nationwide touring. They have rejected most initiatives to modernize the communications within the club. They fail to participate with the members in any two way communications (even on their own forum). They keep close company and listen to only their International Class of membership friends.
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