Closed Door WBCCI Meeting?

[VIKING]

Originally Posted by HowieE

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Howie,
Thanks for injecting some humor in this!
Rich

[Skater]

My suggestion for the original idea of this thread:

Form a working group - the term "closed door" isn't a good phrase to use, and I see what you really meant; a small group to come up with a proposal. Invite each unit to send one and only one member. If that gets too messy (i.e., more than about 12 people), invite each region to send one and only one.

Do something online. Perhaps you can get the owners of airforums to set up a private forum for you to use. Or, contact me - I can set it up on my site.

Come up with a good proposal that units can get behind, like the way they hated the motorhome amendment.

[mistral blue]

A: Change the Constitution.

Originally Posted by mistral blue

ARTICLE XIV
REVENUE AND DUES

Sec. 2 The International Club dues of members, except Members at Large, shall be collected through the units of the club, and in the case of a unit in the process of formation, through the provisional unit and all International dues so collected shall be spent at the local unit level by the local unit and the local unit members. The International dues of Members at Large and the established surcharge shall be collected by International Club Headquarters.

[TROPHYJIM2]

A few years back. the United Way had some major issues at corporate. Many local UW agencies refused to forward monies to the corporate office, mainly because they feared that the people would no longer fund the Local United Way and local people would get hurt.

Each unit held money "in escrow" until changes were made, then as appropriate leadership emerged....funds were released. Simple and effective.

[robandzoe]

I posted this on Nov 5th on the WBCCI forums...so I'll post it here too.. since only like 5 people are on the WBCCI forums...

I've provided numerous positive ways to improve the club only to be told that it was cheap and "it can't be done".. you just need to be more "into" attending and doing things (when I was the unit President of the 4th largest unit in the club).... so, not being heard, by doing it the civil way, turns you into the type that starts screaming about the change required before the club is running a deficit and we have to ask the government for a bail out... I know, a little extreme, but that's how I feel things are going.

My unit was and is growing.. but that's because of Unit activities and doings, not the club's leaders.... if left to them, we'd be shrinking more and more!!!!

One of the commandments was also, what's good for one caravan member, is good for all... or something to that point.. so, shouldn't we all be subsidized on rally mileage re-imbursements???? either we all are, or no one is... and I vote for no one! That was one of my latest suggestions... leaders lead and set the example!

So, Let's start a list of positive ways to improve the club... we all don't have to agree, but this is just a brainstorming session

1. No more mileage re-imbursement
2. Unit Presidents dinner / reception at International is potluck and open to all members, not just the unit presidents
3. International should have a per night rally fee
4. Kids should always have some area at any rally
5. Kids sign up at International not to be held at 9pm
6. Business meetings at International to be held within the official rally dates, not outside the dates
7. Since the club voted down the Airstream Owner's RV Association, remove it from all official club materials - majority rules! see Page 1 or Page 50 here:
http://www.wbcci.org/documents/November%202009.pdf - they've added the "The Recreational Vehicle Club of Airstream Owners" after WBCCI... - no one authorized that change - the majority of the club specifically said NO!

8. That if the unit is what's most important, that 50% of the yearly dues goes to the unit!
9. That now that the Blue Beret is online, allow members to choose to either receive it online, or hard copy. If online, their yearly membership dues gets a discount.
10. That the WBCCI budget must balanced (including the International budget) and that the only way it can go negative, is if the majority of the club authorizes it.
11. That, International becomes a "once every 5 years" as a true International big time rally where the International Presidents all work together (the 4 past and current Presidents) planning it and put it on, somewhere in the US. On each of the 4 years in between the "International" still occurs, but it's at a "sub International" level with a shorter duration (Thursday - Sunday)" held at 5 areas (locations) (Northeast, Southeast, Mid-country, North West, South West) linked together via technology for a 60 minute ceremony. The regions in those areas put it on with responsibility rotates across the regions in those locales. This will potentially (and I think it will) increase yearly attendance "Regionally" as well as every 5 years (where International really is a HUGE event back to 70s like attendance) across the board and allow the younger working class to participate more. This may also save big $$$$ where the club is currently losing $$$ money.

12. Dissolve all sub-clubs within the club.. this leads to elite-ism, or cliques within the club that we don't need - causes more coordination at events regarding parking, services, etc...

13. Eliminate all "member's at large" as they create a timely administration and manage issue that costs the club.

14. Add "Google ads" to the club web site as well as Club forums for revenue generation.

15. Add more merchandise options for the club that is more "hip" or "chic" - I'm glad what is there is there, but come on - the choices are pretty lame!

16. Conduct a CPI (Continuous Process Improvement) process on the International meeting process to see how it can be improved.

17. Utilize twitter as the official WBCCI information dissemination service. Twitter results of the business meetings.

18. Allow for signing up / renewing WBCCI membership online.

19. Be like the Marines (once a Marine, always a Marine)... Once a WBCCI member, you can always be a WBCCI member if you desire... if you met the requirement (owned an Airstream at any one time), that if you sold your Airstream, you could always be a member if you pay.. but to attend events, you must attend events (unless buddy) in an Airstream... but must own an Airstream to have a vote....

20. At opening ceremonies, introduce units by size.. starting from smallest to biggest... this way, the leaders can see by size of units, how many members are represented when they speak.

21. That to be a moderator on the WBCCI forums, you must be a WBCCI member!

22. That moderators are limited in posting to threads (most posts on the WBCCI forums are moderator posts) If a moderator wants to post, then they should not be a moderator, because this is a conflict whereas if someone disagrees with the moderators point of view, the moderator has the power to delete the posts... not fair and is a conflict ( you see limited posting by mods on the air forums site for this reason).

23. That it be recognized that the young kids are our clubs true future. That we strive to allow them to have a great time at any event. They are the true VIP's

24. A personal one to me.... that gifts provided to unit President's be provided to all unit presidents, regardless if you attend the International Unit President's Dinner or not - If you don't attend, you don't get the gift - that is JUST NOT RIGHT!

25. That the Welcome to the Frontpage - The Vintage Airstream Podcast (http://www.TheVAP.com) be the official podcast of the WBCCI ( I know, I have a conflict there, but feel that WBCCI leadership should ask to come on to talk WBCCI!)

26. That volunteers at International "PAY THEIR WAY" for each night they are there outside of the International dates and that our member's International rally fee is not used to subsidize the 20 days prior to rally volunteer costs for power, water and overnight stays (and food)


Oh, I am tired! Copy this and keep adding to it. I think there is alot to consider here, and I'm looking forward to seeing more ideas on how to improve things.

[WineStream]

I never seem to write a short post, and I doubt this will be an exception, but here goes...

I am surprised and nearly floored at the comments from Frank and Rob regarding national / governance. Not that I think they are wrong...I actually quite agree. But, having teetered for a few months on joining the WBCCI last year after buying our AS; Frank nearly single-handedly (or maybe single voiced-ly) convinced me to join the WBCCI and the WDCU. As it turned out, we (Andrea and I) didn't even manage to get to CBR like planned and still have yet to really attend a WDCU-scheduled event. However, I've met many WDCU members at rallies throughout the last year (even had one courtesy park at our house!) and we are more than happy with our decision. Since CBR is always posted as a WBCCI rally and the upcoming Wally Byam Birthday Bash is also that; I am surprised that the most vehement organizers and supporters that I know of in the WDCU are stating a dislike for Int'l and for the WBCCI. Again, not that I disagree, just surprised at the source. I think this speaks volumes.

When Andrea first signed us on to the forums before even buying our AS, one of our first questions was, "what is the WBCCI that everyone keeps mentioning and posting number in their signature about?" Well, after doing some reading and visiting of local WBCCI units, I was myself posting about a new club. In the end, I took heart in the adage that one needs to complain from within, not from outside. So, that combined with Frank, and we're in.

Here's my perspective at this time: $56/yr is just a blanket rally / camping fee. It's sad that $55 goes to an organization that currently doesn't govern itself well and is slow to non-moving towards changing that. Regardless this fee is, in my mind, a camping cost. It entitles me the privilege to camp with the people of the WBCCI that I want to and to not camp with those that I don't want to camp with. I'm not going to get along with 100% of club members and no one can change that.

It has been said that people just don't care about groups anymore and I think that this is largely true. There used to be power in numbers, access to resources via groups, etc., etc. But now we have the internet, cell phones, email. Any resource we need is at our fingertips nearly 24 hours a day and the resources are global. The need for personal grouping really isn't as required anymore. Thus, groups like the Freemasons, Moose, Eagles, other collegiate and vehicle-related clubs will dwindle and in some cases disappear. I saw it happening as I was a member of a college fraternity, I saw it happening as a member of GWRRA (Honda Goldwing motorcycle owner club). The two aforementioned were much like the WBCCI. They were formed by people who were joined by a common bond and wanted to show that. They lived in a time when banding together was a show of unity and strength. Things were formal everywhere, everyone always wore formal clothes when not in the privacy of their own home.

So, the point being here that we can't change the direction that society has gone, and I don't think most want to. We like our computers, cell phones, mobility. We and the WBCCI must adapt to it. Those unwilling to adapt will eventually be taken-over or will disappear. Hopefully the establishment of the WBCCI can be salvaged by groups like WDCU, 4CU, NEU, etc. by heavy involvement and continuous barrage of the WBCCI at Int'l and at the executive level. By the way, great list Rob. I noticed in this month's issue of the Blue Beret that WBCCI is now twittering...unfortunately the messages are 90% propaganda / junk in my opinion so I will not be signing up. In the end, either the WBCCI will die off due to members leaving and possibly a new club will form a few years later after the ashes have settled OR the "progressive units" will continue to grow, the stagnant units will close and eventually the progressives will prevail.

However, I hope that 30 years from now when the Robs and Franks and other people who are currently very active in their unit and governance thereof do not forget their roots and early battles (now) and recall that they need to be organizing rallies which support families, not members, and attract non-members because they see what neat things members are doing together. I can't speak for the the other progressive units, but the WDCU has it right. We can't wait to get to CBR and WBBB this year. It's going to be great.

In closing, I would ask that anyone within governance of a so called "progressive unit" continue to pound, push, yell, scream, kick, and otherwise promote a better future. If you give up, there will be no change. I don't think a closed door thing at national is the best way to do it, but there should be some sort of "committee for change" that meets via web chat or online collaboration website to review strategies and motions to be made at Int'l and how the "progressives" will vote as a whole and campaign for more votes in order to push things faster in the right direction.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by robandzoe

21. That to be a moderator on the WBCCI forums, you must be a WBCCI member!

22. That moderators are limited in posting to threads (most posts on the WBCCI forums are moderator posts) If a moderator wants to post, then they should not be a moderator, because this is a conflict whereas if someone disagrees with the moderators point of view, the moderator has the power to delete the posts... not fair and is a conflict ( you see limited posting by mods on the air forums site for this reason).

I found these two interesting and here are my counterpoints:

21) Why should this be a prerequisite? If we are talking about all this change, why would WBCCI not want an outside voice in the mix? I would think that in my case I might have something additional to offer. I moderate only the outside areas of the WBCCI forum along with members as a team, with zero admin abilities to the overall site. I am currently not a member, but have been considering it if the changes I see continue. I think we'd all agree the forum they have now compared to what they had is a good step, as was using electronic communication more and more (regardless of what one sided comments you might hear). Again, I help moderate only the public area where both members and non-members meet. The site does allow non-members to participate, so why would you limit who can moderate in that area? I would agree that to moderate the member's only area, one must and should be a member in good standing.


22) This really isn't an apples to apples comparison. There are many more layers to this than what you posted. First, this forum has had about an 8 year start? Any posts that get posted by anyone are quickly absorbed and moved on to the next post. There are in fact so many posts, it's hard to keep track here sometimes. Any posts to a new forum, at first you are going to see a lot of mod and admin posts to help get things started. This site also had a lot more admin/mod postings when it got started. I know, cause I'm member 1937....been through a lot here and seen many things. Having been on the WBCCI forum since sometime in September, there have in fact been many, many more posts from non-admin/non-mod members. In addition to this, I would point out the following fact about mod/admin participation here on AF--

Of the top 25 posters to AF, seven of them are current moderators or admins of the site (CanoeStream, azflycaster, Stefrobrts, Janet, jcanavera, moosetags and wahoonc). Additionally, six of the top posters that are no longer mods or admins (some more recently than others) are also in the top 25 (overlander63, InsideOut, ALANSD, uwe, john HD and thenewkid 64). This means that of the top 25 posters to this site, over 50% of those users with the most posts are in fact, or have in fact been a mod or admin of this site with nearly 90,000 posts combined. The stats can easily be verified here:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/memb...rt=posts&pp=50

You may also find that many of the current and past mod/admins post frequently to somewhat frequently if you view their statistics.

[LI Pets]

The forum is a failure!

First order of biz get G Gibson off the control of the forum.

He is using it for his financial gain.

He blocks users deletes posts.

[LI Pets]

The only way I justifiy paying the $55 portion of the dues and the $15 to my unit is to consider it as paying $70 to be a member of my local unit.

I have no intention of going to another Int.,

Perry Ga. was enough.

Moreover, I want to near home on the 4th of July with family barbecues.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

The forum is a failure!

First order of biz get G Gibson off the control of the forum.

He is using it for his financial gain.

He blocks users deletes posts.

Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:

How can the site be a failure after 6 months? I think it's a little premature to make such a bold statement, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. You may be right in the end, you might be wrong, but IMHO, it's way too early to say anything like this.....

You can like Greg, hate Greg, it's your call, but please enlighten all of us where the gain has been to date? Projections when he will not only recoup his expenditures, but also be to the positive on it? Do you have any facts to support there has been 1 cent gained so far? Please share the source of your claim LI Pets. According to you the site is a failure, so how is he making a cent of a failed site...you are shooting down your own points....

Again, LI, please share with all of us all the conversations that took place in making decisions to moderate posts in which you participated in that process? While you are at it, please share with all of us how many conversations you were a part of on this forum when it comes to moderating posts and making member decisions.

If you're honest, your answers should be:

It is too early to tell

I have no real data to support income or any type of current or future gains to be made

I have not participated in any discussions in regard to moderation or member management on the WBCCI forum or the AF sites to have any real knowledge of these situations.

If this site is going to allow a lot of this kind of content, I think it's only fair to provide some balance where balance can be provided. You'll note that I have not commented on many other aspects as I have no idea what the right answers are, yet you don't see me tearing folks down in the manner in which a select few here have done.

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Let me also counter some of your fiction with some level of fact:

How can the site be a failure after 6 months? I think it's a little premature to make such a bold statement, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. You may be right in the end, you might be wrong, but IMHO, it's way too early to say anything like this.....

You can like Greg, hate Greg, it's your call, but please enlighten all of us where the gain has been to date? Projections when he will not only recoup his expenditures, but also be to the positive on it? .

Are you that naive?

Who has ads are on the left side?
Who claims to be sponsoring the forum?

.

Do you have any facts to support there has been 1 cent gained so far? Please share the source of your claim LI Pets. According to you the site is a failure, so how is he making a cent of a failed site...you are shooting down your own points.....

You need to read here more and SW,
it is a failure in partisapation, no argument there.
As to finanical gain---All the advertising and making him appear that Airstream is endorsing him.
look at his sites which has links from the forum numerous times.

How about this thread which you were part of?


.

Again, LI, please share with all of us all the conversations that took place in making decisions to moderate posts in which you participated in that process? .

Are U unaware of the grievience that was filed against him for that very issue? see this "Gibson for his using the Miserable Users Hack - preventing me from seeing the WBCCI forums"

.

It is too early to tell

I have no real data to support income or any type of current or future gains to be made.

It's not to early the tribe has spoken.
Data sure send me the google ad words stats and number of clicks to his used dealer site.

How about when he tried to shut down Save Wally?

This should give you an idea of the person you're defending, please read all of it.


Ps R U trying to derail this thread?
I will not let it happen beyond this last post.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

Are you that naive?

Who has ads are on the left side?
Who claims to be sponsoring the forum?

.

You need to read here more and SW,
it is a failure in partisapation, no argument there.
As to finanical gain---All the advertising and making him appear that Airstream is endorsing him.
look at his sites which has links from the forum numerous times.


.

Are U unaware of the grievience that was filed against him for that very issue? see this "Gibson for his using the Miserable Users Hack on me - preventing me from seeing the WBCCI forums"

.

It's not to early the tribe has spoken.
Data sure send me the google ad words stats and number of clicks to his used dealer site.

How about when he tried to shut down Save Wally?

This should give you an idea of the person you're defending, please read all of it.

What is your point about the ads, I don't get it? AF has ads, AF is making money? What specific data do you have to support this charge of all the money he is currently making? Please don't say look at the save wally site (which by the way has what 50 members with 3 doing most of the posting?!), because frankly it would be like me trying to get world news from the National Enquirer.

Airstream does endorse WBCCI....and guess what they actively participate on the WBCCI forum too. Again, you can see that (fact) by going here:

http://forum.wbcci.org/conversations...m-inc-service/

I'm not a member, and don't fully understand the grievance process, but there was a conclusion made by someone other than Greg I trust? The outcome was not as you would have expected or liked? Not really my issue, I'm simply there to help out...when I was slamming WBCCI hard folks said, "Twink, change only happens when you roll up your sleeves and get in there." I was reluctant, but figured since they made such a bold step, I would try. I have found the WBCCI folks to be very open and accommodating, but then again, I am on the team, so I may see more than you might when it comes to day to day operation of certain areas of the site. I have ZERO access to internal club issues or issues between members.

What "tribe" are you referring to? A select handful of folks? Give me specifics, not generalizations Bob. There are over 700 members on the site, Airstream is on the site and though it's postings and membership are nowhere near AF, it's about 6 months old.... Would it be nice to have more and greater participation? Sure, but it's not dead over there either.

I am not defending Greg, I don't have to, I'm defending the site. What Leo, Greg and anyone else does is their business. I don't stick my nose in other people's business as I have no dog in these kinds of things. I work within a team of folks similar to that of what is done here on this site, and here to, many folks don't always agree with the calls, but the calls are made nonetheless.

A lot of things get said, and I am merely asking for more real and specific data to support your claims than pointing me to the National Enquirer of unofficial Airstream/WBCCI Websites.....

I am not trying to derail anything. If you'll notice, I am responding, not initiating, but I agree, PM me or feel free to start another thread, I'd be happy to share more relevant fact.

[LI Pets]

As I said I will not allow U to derail this thread any further by replying.

Start a new thread about it.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

As I said I will not allow U to derail this thread any further by replying.

Start a new thread about it.

Feel free Bob. I don't see a need, but will gladly participate in any thread you create on the subject. I don't see this as me initiating anything, just providing and responding with some facts and asking some questions.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Okay I was so happy in reading what Atabolis had to say. It reminded me of why this club is so great and why it needs us to all get it back on track and Silvertwinky had to pipe in....

So here you go(sorry Paul, highjacking) I think the WBCCI Forum is a total joke. I officially had my membership to it removed so that I would not be counted toward the 700 registered members. Oddly anytime I go over to that forum there is CBurke, Cortez and me the guest. No one else. That is sad. Very sad. Your man Greg goes by the name Cortez super administrator. That is a very bad title. Look into the history of Cortez and you find he was not a very good person. He was responsible for enslaving millions of people in the New World and I wonder if a bit of foreshadowing is not present in him picking that title. He feels compelled to reply to every single post made and if he has nothing constructive to add he inserts some stupid song or nostolgic moment. The WBCCI forum is nothing but pure propaganda. All the posts are sanitized and deleted to cause no waves. Only one side of the coin is allowed to be seen. The description of that forum as a failure is accurate and honest. It is yet another sign of leadership out of touch with the wishes of the members.

Just to ground this discussion a bit since it is now focused on the Wb forum.... Forum (legal), designated space for public expression in the USA. you do not have that on the WB forum.

Sorry but I too have issue of where the money goes. I too have issues with you moderating and not being a club member. I am part of the force working to change this. The deal Cburke and cortez made with the IBT is a bad one. It will come to an end, trust me on that.

Can we go back to discussing how to have a town meeting?

[Frank's Trailer Works]

I just want to add something... It is a shame we cannot be having this discussion on the clubs forum. That is where it belongs not here. Unfortunately that is not possible. Paul' s initial post would have been removed due to "harsh words" When he complains the reply woulds be "it is not what you say it is how you are saying it." All this dirty laundry belongs on the WB forum not here. The fact that cannot happen is another clear picture of why the WB forum is a failure.

Now let's go back to figuring out how a town meeting can be held.

[rideair]

The WBCCI International numbers play out like this:

If one thinks about it, it’s really worst than shown. Let’s see, we as a club have our “so called leaders” spend $125,000.00 to go around and “promote” the International and Region Rallies along with some Special Event Rallies. But for now, let’s just stick with International and the travel budget.

Even if you only write off ½ of their travel budget to push International that’s $62,500.00 spent to “Promote” a rally that is already loosing money. So, take the $62,500.00 divided by the number of people attending the International rally (for easy numbers we’ll use 800 trailers) $62,500.00 divided by 800 = $78.12 per-trailer for their “traveling promotion” add to that the lost on International (we’ll take the middle of $50,000.00 in loss) $50,000.00 divided by 800 = $62.50 per-trailer cost. Add the two together $78.12 + $62.50 = $140.62 total “LOSS” per-trailer!!!

So, now take the $140.62 and minus it from the cost to attend International (this year $480.00) and you'll have what some people are "really" paying to go for a 3 weeks( 480.00-140.62 = $339.38 / 21 days = $16.16 ) Not a bad "daily" rate if you can get it.

I'm starting to think there's no real good solution to this problem with our leadership.

If you don't re-up, money drops, they keep spending, "Club Dies".

If you don't go to International, they spend even more per-trailer, they suck the money dry, "Club Dies".

If your unit withholds their money, people working at HQ loose thier job, money dry's up, they keep spending, "Club Dies".


Force change is needed, by "Hook or Crook".

[robandzoe]

Sorry, SilverTwink....

I feel very strongly about the point that a Mod on the WBCCI forum must be a WBCCI member... if you want to be involved, then JOIN the club... Nothing against you - it's the principle...you state you're on the TEAM - then why don't you officially become part of the team.. then no issue.

I just put that Cortez piece together and googled Cortez... holy crap... Frank - you might be onto something there...very interesting....

But.... this thread is about more than the WBCCI forum.

My points were published here to get a list going of improvements that this WBCCI Improvements Working Group could take, prioritize with inputs from the WBCCI members, and take to the powers to be.

It's too bad people have to grab on to certain points rather than just let them be and let the list grow.. Paul - I hope people copy it, then keep adding to it and let the list grow... back in October, I put that list together in about 25 minutes, while sitting watching TV with the wife.. so, I'm sure others of you out there have more ideas...

Keep the list growing. Then, maybe for each point, this forum could help us vote on each point in the future.

Rob

[mutcth]

To add to Rob's list of suggestions: if my experience is typical, the membership application process needs to be streamlined. I joined through a local unit, who has a very helpful membership chair. I was welcomed into the local unit immediately. Still, it took several weeks to get my numbers from the mothership. (And wow, do they send a lot of instructions on how to mount them.)

That seems like its too long. If it was camping season and I wanted to attend a rally, waiting that period of time could make a big difference.

It was curious to read in Blue Beret the defense behind everyone wearing the blue blazers and ties at International - it makes the event look pretty. I guess that's their perogative - but heck, I don't even wear a tie to weddings anymore, and avoid wearing one at work at all costs. Not sure I even own a blue blazer - but I don't need that to camp with my local unit.

Tom

[Silvertwinkie]

Frank I am not sure what exactly you said in the private area, but what I find difficult is that everyone wants to say something, then after they've said it, want to go running back to the essence of this thread.

As a granted freedom, you exercised your rights to leave. You were not asked to leave, so I am basically going to assume you violated the TOS if you had any posts edited or removed and perhaps you threw the baby out with the bathwater. Bottom line if you want change the place for it you are correct is in the member area and it must be kept civil (no drive by type posts, no jabs, etc). A lot of what goes on here isn't going to fly on the WBCCI site. As an example, look what happened on the Airstream Town Hall meeting, it got so bad that Bob Wheeler simply left. There is a fine line between conversation, dialogue and free speech. What I find many times is that these threads become nothing more than a gripe session with little constructive conversations. AF does allow more to continue, that is their right to allow the envelope to be pushed.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do on the subject and though we don't fully agree I do respect your opinion and choices you've made.

***edit to add***

Rob I thought the rest of your list was constructive, we'll just have to agree to disagree on modding the public areas of the thread. I don't see why if we allow non-members to the site why non-members can't volunteer to help in the public area, but again, I respect your position on the subject. Notice that I'm not replying or answering anything toward the club in general, I am simply discussing forum operations on parts where I volunteer when questions or comments are being made.