Cape Town to Cairo

[Uberlanders]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

There's a lot of America I haven't seen yet, and I think that is enough to keep me travelling for many years.

Isn't that the truth!! There are so many places that we can drive to on our continent, that it could keep us traveling for a lifetime. And sometimes we get in that rut of traveling to the same places rather than seeing the varied terrains and cultures that our United States, and Canada for that matter, have to offer.

I envy the full timer who can see it all at their own pace rather than squeezing things in on the weekends.

Kathleen

[Action]

Originally Posted by 63GT

There are the obvious problems -- disease, AIDS and an incredible lack of sanitary facilities or practices.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome to third world!! Not just Africa. In the last 3 or 4 years I have traveled South Africa and some of the Pacific Rim. In Thailand, outside of tourist only areas, a bathroom is a concrete pad with a hole in a building with an opening for a door. In Peru it's not much better. Mexcio has running water, however picture the WORST public bathroom in USA and know you will have to pay to use it. And don't eat anything unless it's cooked, and cooked well, unless you like hepititis A. The water, forget about it. Unless it's RO in a bottle. I wouldnt worry about AIDS, it's the other non-sanitary bugs that will usually get you if you are not careful. You need to have some pretty person contact with someone to get AIDS. Some of the other things can be contracted by a hand shake or stepping in stuff. Eating and drinking come next in the contact cycle. Hand sanitizer is a great thing.

Most sewage is not a government controlled thing. So the individual person deals with it (or not for the most part) on their own. The local people usually have some immunity to the conditions. And still their average life span is less than North America.

Again this applies to areas that the Americans do not frequent or are not tourist resorts.

So travel the world. Just don't expect the same public services in poorer countries. It ain't there. But's it's fun to go and I will go again.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[Silvertwinkie]

You know, as I skimmed this thread, I found myself questioning with all that's going on in the middle east, where folks are targets nearly everywhere, wouldn't one feel somewhat unsafe in a caravan that screamed Americans are here?

Don't get me wrong, I think back in the day this was a great trip....and maybe still is today....I know we can't all live with our heads in the sand in fear of what could happen, but to me going to Cairo in a group of Airstreamers just makes me a bit uneasy. Am I way off base here?

[85MH325]

Y'know... life isn't safe. Safety is an illusion. We took a trip to Costa Rica, a beautiful, progressive, and developed "third world" country last summer, and lost four of our group to drownings. It could have happened anywhere there's a coast and an ocean. Our son was out with them, as were a bunch of other folks we were with. It could have just as easily been our son as the four who were lost.

Frankly, I'd guess you're more likely to be killed in a car crash on an event like Capetown to Cairo than by terrorists or bandits, but I say that never having traversed that part of the world.

Time did a really interesting cover a couple of weeks ago about how we perceive threats in the U.S. Frankly, you're more likely to die in a car crash or falling down the stairs at home than dying at the hands of another or from some horrendous disease, yet because of the press we agonize over West Nile virus and the Avian Flu Pandemic. We are targets in our own hometowns of crooks, yet we feel safe most of the time. I would hate to think that I passed up a great adventure because there might be risk. I'd love to do a trip from the Arctic Circle to Tierra del Fuego one day, despite that Pan American Highway 1 runs through some of the most politically unstable areas in the world, California being high on that list!

We're planning a trip to New Zealand and Austrailia for next summer. Wouldn't miss it for the world.

Roger

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

Am I way off base here?

yes...

more or less...

the current thread discussing,

the upcoming caravan is here...

http://www.airforums.com/forum...an-24626.html?

i signed on today....

now to find a trailer!

cheers
2air'

[Silvertwinkie]

I agree, life isn't safe. Saftey isn't an illusion though. I mean does one drink over the limit and drive? Does one walk, park or camp on the Interstate shoulder? In the end it's playing the odds. I'm sure the trip would be fun, but in a small way, you can't not say that the odds of something happening, particularly today, shouldn't be something that's on people's minds. If this were back pre 2001 when the world was somewhat different, I'd agree and heck would most likely gone on a trip like this if I could make it. I don't want to get into a political conversation here, but we have throughly ticked off the muslim word and pi$$ed on a hornets nest. There have been a large number of folks getting simply taken and held for ransom or beheaded in not just Iraq. Traveling in an Airstream in Cairo one might as well have the Golden Arches tattooed on one's forehead.

I'm not saying here that the sky is falling or that one should stop living, but I can't also subscribe to the fact that there can be things done that increase the odds of something happening. Traveling to the Middle East would in fact be one of those events IMHO. I'm not looking for agreement, I'm simply voicing my opinion and concerns. I may be way off base....but maybe I'm not.

[Silvertwinkie]

This was off the link that Action posted...to be taken and posted at face value with no personal ax to grind:

SAFETY AND SECURITY: Egypt suffered a series of deadly terrorist attacks in or near tourist sites in late 2004, 2005, and 2006 – often coinciding with major local holidays. Americans should be especially vigilant in crowded tourist areas in the Sinai, practice good personal security measures, and be alert to their surroundings. A heavy security presence is apparent to travelers throughout the country. American are encouraged to contact the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Cairo for the most up-to-date security information.

Since October 2004, three major, coordinated terrorist bombings targeting the Sinai Peninsula’s tourist infrastructure caused many deaths and hundreds of injuries, mostly to Egyptian nationals. U.S. citizens do not appear to have been targeted in any of these incidents, but many non-Egyptian tourists, including Americans, have been killed or injured in these attacks.

Most recently, three explosions in the town of Dahab on April 24, 2006, killed over 20 people and wounded at least another 80 people, including five U.S. citizens. In July 2005, massive explosions in Sharm el Sheikh killed over 60 people, including one American. In October 2004, three bombs detonated in Taba and two nearby tourist camps, killing 34 people, including one American. Evidence of instability in the Sinai has also been reflected in random attacks on vehicles transiting the interior and two bomb attacks on Multinational Force Observers near the Rafah border crossing in August 2005 and April 2006.

While the Egyptian Government took effective measures against the perpetrators of the 2004 and 2005 attacks, the April 2006 bombings reflect a persistent, indigenous threat of terror activities in the Sinai.

The Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September 2005 occurred without serious incident. The exact terms for crossing the border at Rafah have not yet been determined, however. Travelers seeking to cross the border are likely to encounter difficulty. Travelers wishing to cross this border should contact the American Embassy in Cairo or the American Consulate General in Jerusalem for more information on the current status of the border crossing.

U.S. citizens who still plan to visit the Sinai in spite of the persistent threat of terrorist attacks, should exercise great caution. As anywhere, travelers may gain a measure of safety by remaining particularly alert to their surroundings, by avoiding crowded tourist areas, and by visiting destination resorts and hotels with significant physical setback and security procedures.

In addition to the Sinai attacks, there were three terror attacks on crowded tourist destinations in Cairo in April 2005. In one, a lone suicide bomber killed three foreigners, including an American, at Cairo’s Khan el-Khalili Market. Three Americans were seriously injured in this incident.

Prior to the October 2004 attack, there had been no terrorist incidents involving tourists in Egypt since the mid 1990s.

There have also been instances of instability and public disorder in some other areas of Egypt, most notably in the Nile Valley governorates of Assiut and Sohag, located between Cairo and Luxor. These governorates, along with the adjacent governorates of Minya and Qena, have been areas of extremist activity in the past. U.S. Embassy personnel traveling to these areas (apart from Luxor and adjacent tourist destinations) require advance approval. Egyptian authorities also restrict the travel of foreigners in these governorates. American citizens planning to travel in these areas should contact the Embassy prior to travel.

Public demonstrations, occasionally take place in public areas such as Tahrir Square in Cairo and in the vicinity of universities and mosques. These demonstrations are frequently accompanied by a heavy security presence. Roads in the vicinity are often closed. Americans are urged to avoid areas in which demonstrations are planned or where large crowds are gathering and to consult local sources to learn of possible demonstrations.

Travelers to Egypt's frontiers, including the borders with Libya, Sudan, and Israel and parts of the Sinai off the main, paved roads, must obtain permission from the Travel Permits Department of the Ministry of the Interior, located at the corner of Sheikh Rihan and Nubar Streets in downtown Cairo.

In addition, travelers should be aware that land mines have caused many casualties, including deaths of Americans, in Egypt. All travelers should check with local authorities before embarking on off-road travel. Known minefields are not reliably marked by signs, but are sometimes enclosed by barbed wire. After heavy rains, which can cause flooding and the consequent shifting of land mines, travelers should take care driving through build-ups of sand on roadways. Though mines are found in other parts of Egypt, the highest concentrations are in World War II battlefields along the Mediterranean coast west of Alexandria, the Eastern Desert between Cairo and the Suez Canal, and much of the Sinai Peninsula. Travelers are urged to be especially prudent in these areas.

[clancy_boy]

I may not agree with everything Silvertwinke has to say in this thread or his logic for some of his reasons but I will have to agree with his final conclusions concerning this adventure - it's not safe.

To leave South Africa (the center of stability in Africa with a very high kidnap and murder rate) from Cape Town you will need to pass through - Mozambique..... oops wrong answer civil war there, OK, say you pass through Zimbabwe - ohhhh they are killing white farmers there for their (use this term loosely) land who have been there for 200 years (not a political statement just an observation) - not good. There are two other ways but lets just stick with the direct route for now. OK - that part of the ride went well - say only the last two campers are taken out - no big deal. Moving on Tanzania is ahead - known Al Quieda stomping grounds (remember the US Embassy bombing in 2000 - killed over 200, good place to get help - NOT) next Kenya same as the last place - coordinated attack I seem to remember. "Nah Abdullah - those are Airstreams let them pass." "Hey, we lost two more and the third to the last has new vent holes." OK - by now we are experienced on the African road, don't stop to ask for directions from the guy with an AK-47. Food drops and fuel depots are secure - but not as much supplies as expected - seems the local bribe welcoming committee wanted some - say 50%. Kenya's ahead - land of nature preserves and beautifull falls - "lets stop". Hummm - seems like not a good thing to do, on the list of places the State Department recommends not staying - our friends the muslim terrorists are VERY ACTIVE here. Should of went through Rwanda and Uganda - bad news (would help if you read the news) they cut people up to pieces with machettees to the count of over a million (1,000,000 - lots of zeros) in the past decade - but hey you're in an Airstream Caravan - just snap a few photos and move on. Now we are in the thick of things - Ethiopia and Sudan are next - you need to mention them together - can you say BORDER WARS, yep - no passe between them - well financed guide or not. By the way - the technology of weapons improves up here. You no longer get to see them, they can hit you from a long ways away. "What was that?" - says the guy hit by an RPG. So, do an end around and go through Chad by Libya and into Egypt. Chad - worst famine in 100's of years - good choice, Libya - not a chance, tried to kill him once - I'm sure he remembers that. But say by now you are in Egypt. You will go completely un-noticed there in your Airstream, just stay away from the major sites, they gun down out-of-towners there, ask the friendly folks from Europe who have all but abandoned Egypt as a tourist destination.

Get the idea - maybe not. I may be way off - but laying on the side of the road with an AK-47 (it was being held by a uniformed cop) to the back of me and my friends head in the safety of an embassy driver in the Ivory Coast has tainted my view somewhat of Africa. Been there, sent the post cards home - you are NOT MISSING MUCH. Sense of adventure, I've had mine -

Please, when you go - post lots of pictures, that would be nice..

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I agree, life isn't safe. Saftey isn't an illusion though.

I'm not saying here that the sky is falling or that one should stop living, but I can't also subscribe to the fact that there can be things done that increase the odds of something happening. Traveling to the Middle East would in fact be one of those events IMHO. I'm not looking for agreement, I'm simply voicing my opinion and concerns. I may be way off base....but maybe I'm not.

Eric, while it's true that there are places in the world that are in disarray, Afghanistan and Iraq among them, I seriously doubt if you're personally in any significantly greater danger in Cairo or Capetown as an individual than you are in Chicago...

Looking at this chart and trying to assess risk the same way, I'd have to say you'd be nuts to want to visit Chicago, much less live there. How would the State Department rate travelling in Chicago or any of our other cities? We know that the reality is much different though...

Risk can be assessed, and you're right that it should be whenever possible, but the percieved 'threat' of risk in most cases is much greater than the actual risk. As long as you do what you can to educate yourself and try to limit those risks, I think you're Ok.

Roger

On edit... I should add that this chart is dated as the Chicago homicide rate has continued to decline as was the lowest in decades in '05. Still, there are almost as many homicides in Chicago in a year as there are in the entirety of England.

[Silvertwinkie]

Rog, I hear ya. Chicago, in certain areas can be just as bad or worse compared to Cairo, you are right, but numbers and charts can be made to prove just about any point. I also could dig up statistics to show the west side of the city isn't all that bad, but only taking the area around United Center and using that as my data to support my viewpoint. Additionally, 22% homicide out of the millions of residents, though worse than some, is still fairly low for a major city. I would guess Houston today would be even worse than that. Yet, I have yet to see suicide bombers, people beheaded for simply being an American in any of these places.

My sense is that even though my odds of getting shot or harmed on the west side of the city are greater than say being in Iowa, my point is that even though I don't live in Iowa, Wisconsin, Ontario, Germany, France, etc or many places in Mexico I feel my odds are better traveling to these places, than to places in the Middle East. Moreover, if you read the State Deparment info, you don't have suicide bombers either in these places I've mentioned typically, nor are there risks of running into mines in most of these places, or beheaddings for simply being an American, Brit or anyone else they see as a "Zionist" or "Invader".

Again, my personal call, without trying to impose my thoughts or will on the masses. Just sharing my thoughts about it. Others will feel totally different and that's ok. We are not supressing anyone's views here that are non-offensive.

[clancy_boy]

Only less than 700 in the City of Chicago, for how many millions of people. How many of those are solved? - they actually catch the criminals here.

I could only find the stats for 2001 - I'm sure it has gotten better by now (maybe NOT). BTW - these are reported deaths - there is a difference, undocumented murders in 3rd world countries can be as high as 200% more than the reported number - can't scare the tourists away, that would be bad for business.

You want graphs - I have graphs, mine are just bigger.

[clancy_boy]

KHARTOUM, Sudan (Reuters) -- Hundreds of people may have been killed in the heaviest fighting between Sudan's former north-south foes since they signed a peace deal last year, a senior former rebel officer said on Thursday.
"More than hundreds have been lost. The Sudan army sustained very heavy casualties and civilians were caught in the crossfire," Elias Waya Nyipuocs, a former officer in the southern rebel Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA), told Reuters.
The fighting in the southern town of Malakal began three days ago and escalated into full trench warfare between the northern Sudanese Armed Forces and the SPLA.

MOGADISHU, Somalia (AP) -- Hundreds of Ethiopian troops arrived Friday to protect Somalia's government as a powerful Islamic militia massed nearby, sending civilians fleeing and raising fears of a regional war, witnesses said.
Although tensions were high, travel is exceedingly difficult during the wet season, making serious fighting unlikely in the immediate future. Twenty years of neglect have left Somalia's roads virtually impassable in the rain.
A statement on the Islamic Courts' Web site, a Somali-language site called Qaadisiya, said Friday there will be a "third world war" between Christians and Muslims and said the Muslim world will defeat "the enemy of Islam."

N'DJAMENA, Chad (Reuters) -- Chad announced plans on Friday to send troops to help its southern neighbor Central African Republic and confront what it said was a widening regional war waged by Sudan from its violent Darfur region.
The announcement signaled an escalation of the Darfur conflict, which has increasingly been spilling an explosive mixture of refugees, rebels, militia and bandit raiders over Sudan's western borders into Chad and Central African Republic.

HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) -- The United Nations food agency said Monday it has scaled down food distribution in Zimbabwe, where more than 1 million people are in critical need, because of a shortage of donor funds. It said further reductions might be necessary across southern Africa.

NAIROBI, Kenya (Reuters) -- An independent commission will demarcate the contested Ethiopian-Eritrean border on maps and leave the rival nations to establish the physical boundary themselves, a letter obtained by Reuters on Tuesday shows.
The Horn of Africa neighbors fought a 1998-2000 war over a border area of dusty villages and scrubby plains, and 70,000 people were killed. Although a 2000 agreement ended the conflict, the peace process soon ground to a halt.


You WILL have to pass through some of these countries. No way around it.

[myoung]

Let's see. There are towns named Cairo in New York and West Virginia. Can't think where there might be one named Capetown, but perhaps a town on a cape would suit. That trip might allow the caravanners to see their next birthday.

[ArtStream]

Disclaimer: This is in an attempt to inject levity into the conversation.

Question?

I'm wondering what the motivation is for posting pie charts, graphs and statistics is on the dangers of the Cairo to Cape Town caravan.

1. Is it to sway committed Airstream adventurers from their choice?

2. Show how much I know about the geo-political landscape?

3. Maybe they don't know it's dangerous?

4. I'm just a good Samaritan?

5. Because I'm to smart to go?

6. I'm trying to get to 1000 posts ASAP!

7. I need some excitement since the Save Wally Campaign ended!


************************************************** ****************

The scene opens with "Darling" sitting at the breakfast nook, pecking at his laptop …

Darling: " Wow honey, this Cairo to Cape Town caravan sounds fabulous!"

Honey: "OK, Darling."

Darling: "Wait, wait, ah honey, I just saw a pie chart posted on the AS forum which shows Mogadishu is more dangerous than Chicago, maybe we should cancel?"

Honey: "Can we discuss this after I return from my skydiving lesson."

Darling: (lovingly) "Break a leg, honey"

************************************************** *

I've posted this because:

1. I'm trying to get to 1000 posts ASAP.

2. I need some excitement since the Save Wally campaign ended.

3. To show I'm a witty fellow.

4. There's nothing like the smell of Napalm in the morning, heck I could use a good flaming.

Michael

[Silvertwinkie]

That's pretty cute Michael....as for me, 6000 is the number, though I didn't post any charts to show my ascent.

Let's blame it on Roger...he started it.

On a serious note, I personally have little to no vested feelings if folks go or not. I just wanted to share my thoughts just in case someone was overly nostalgic and didn't think about it.

[ArtStream]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

That's pretty cute Michael....as for me, 6000 is the number, though I didn't post any charts to show my ascent.

Silvertwink,

6000!
see, you just reinforced my reason #1 for posting the above

[clancy_boy]

Maybe a little background - I lead Oceanographic surveys around the world for the Navy. At any time I can be on call to deply to far away places - some of which you may travel through on this caravan in Africa. I was on a plane THE DAY the tsunami hit Indonesia and the IO 2 years ago. It's part of my job to lead these types of ADVENTURES for the Navy and to safely deploy and return my team to these places (as many as 20 people). This process of planning an "expedition" for a large amount of equipment, personnel, medical needs, evacuation measures, shipping schedules, SECURITY - ALL OF IT are part of my job and I do it every day. So when I see a group of people that in some ways I have gotten to know jump into a "fun time" such as this I guess I like to pipe up and put out too much info.

Sorry, have fun - take lots of pictures and post them on the web for all to see.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by artlink

Silvertwink,

6000!
see, you just reinforced my reason #1 for posting the above

Got me cold on that one.

[Darol Ingalls]

85MH325, Thanks for the stats. Another very good reason to stay away from Chicago! Darol

[85MH325]

Darol, it was entirely my pleasure. <deep bow> Roger