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Old 03-06-2007, 06:36 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peegreen
If you read the latest edition of the Blue Beret and the lobbying efforts for entrance of non A/S motorhomes - the WBCCI's demise will be blamed on no more class A's being manufactured.
Have you gotten the March Blue Beret? Can you tell us more of what it says? Is there any representation of the other side of the issue or is the Blue Beret prejudiced towards only pro other brands and not relating both sides of the vote?

What a premise being put forward!!!! EGADS!!!!
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:02 PM   #156
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oh carol..."egads" is my Mom's favorite expression, how i loved seeing you use it!
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:07 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by wheel interested
What a premise being put forward!!!! EGADS!!!!
wouldn't it be nice to be able to allow someone to put an idea on the table without this approach?

Isn't this pre-judgment exactly the same kind of 'attitude' that people have encountered in other unpleasant WBCCI experiences?

It is one thing to disagree, but to do so before you even hear what they say is something to think about.

It is another to express a disagreement with all the exclamation points and finality as well.

IMHO neither serve the WBCCI well but they do support the reputation of this corner of ASF that WBCCI is full of intolerant bigots - and that is not a good thing IMHO.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:12 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janetbjt
oh carol..."egads" is my Mom's favorite expression, how i loved seeing you use it!
Hi Janet! There was that movie too with Clifton Web??? Cheaper by the dozen, EGADS! he kept saying. Sometimes one word can say sooo much.
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:03 PM   #159
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Cool Answers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested
Have you gotten the March Blue Beret? Can you tell us more of what it says? Is there any representation of the other side of the issue or is the Blue Beret prejudiced towards only pro other brands and not relating both sides of the vote?

What a premise being put forward!!!! EGADS!!!!
I had the opportunity to scan the March issue tonight. To answer your question, it all seems to be one side of the "issue" in this issue. There is an article by the Chairman of the "study committee". The article shows how limited the study was.
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:46 PM   #160
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Well, one thing for sure you will never see an opposing viewpoint presented in the BB. In fact if some had their war, you would have to vote on items based on the merits as presented only by the IBT. Any opposing viewpoint is taken as attack, no matter how it's presented.

I like the system that we have in our county & state, which I assume exists in most states. A voter guide is sent to all registered voters. In that guide pro and con statements are presented for the county/state issues we are to vote on. And rebuttal arguments are also presented for each item. This way (unlike the WBCCI way of presenting issues to the membership) each voter has the ability to educate themselves on the pros and cons of each item and can make a more fair and balanced decision on every issue.

I do not take the word of people waiving the bylays, constitution and code of ethics around like a bible on sunday and saying that we should not go against the grain of the grand leadership. People like this give me the impression that they have something to gain and something to hide.

The Blue Beret presents only one sides position. I applaud the folks who do not take this information as the only truth but use it as part of a whole story and research the entire issue before making a decision.

You can lecture people to ignore an opposing viewpoint but people are not unintelligent and can see this proposition for what it is worth. And I am guessing that they will let the creators of this proposition know that they disapprove. And remember, just because you disapprove of this proposition does not mean that you are bad, that you are somehow against the WBCCI or that somehow you are a troublemaker. You are not. You are simply standing up for what you believe. That is never a crime.
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Old 03-06-2007, 09:23 PM   #161
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"the WBCCI's demise will be blamed on no more class A's being manufactured."

I do exclaim over that. I find that premise further than I can possibly stretch my imagination. With all the varied discussion that has taken place of why the WBCCI is losing popularity I don't think Airstream can be faulted for it. And if that constitutes an example of intolerant biggotry to think so on my part, than I'll eat your hat (beret.)
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:07 PM   #162
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Quote:
Well, one thing for sure you will never see an opposing viewpoint presented in the BB.
this is not true as anyone who actually reads it should know. It makes me think that "opposing viewpoint" is thought to mean 'flame war' and that polite and civil disagreement is not recognized as having opposing viewpoints.

Quote:
And if that constitutes an example of intolerant biggotry to think so on my part, than I'll eat your hat (beret.)
intolerance is not listening to others; judging the opinions of others without consideration of their thoughts; or even considering the full scope of the issues involved. It is making up one's mind without any consideration or respect for others. It is trying to force others to take polar positions without due consideration or respect for them or the issues involved or the context in which those decisions exist.

Then there is the attacking of the person as is done in assigning that person a symbol (beret) or in symbolic allegation such as "waving the bible' - just look at Carol's emoticon ...

Quote:
You can lecture people to ignore an opposing viewpoint
is itself lecturing and not discussing. It is entirely one way, judgmental, accusatory, and not tolerant of others' in either their views or styles. It does not ask, it tells. It does not describe, it judges.

Quote:
I like the system that we have in our county & state
An association is an entirely different type of organization than a civil government. That is one reason why slogans such as "member's rights" are so meaningless in a voluntary association. In such associations you enter into a voluntary agreement and there is no coercion involved in your doing so such as there is in a civil government.

Quote:
In fact if some had their war
There is only one side fighting a war and using hostility as a weapon. As, for instance
Quote:
Any opposing viewpoint is taken as attack
when the only 'attack' is in just such accusations, when the lack of integrity is in setting out certain groups of people for opposition, when a side is formed and polarities defined, when societies are misrepresented, and when war talk is the vehicle.

There are important issues here. How to encourage informed participation is one mentioned. The criteria by which membership is qualified is another. The problem is that these are drowned out by those eating berets, claiming war, or otherwise throwing a tantrum.

But the real question gets down to the rally example mentioned earlier where people are not welcoming of others. That attitude is very visible here in messages that are challenging others, making false statements, judging others based on personal qualities, using ridicule to denigrate those who appear to be different, and other such uncivil behavior. That creates an identity for the club that, I think, is much more significant than other membership qualification criteria. That identity is the one I have experienced and the one I have seen many testiments in these forums that it their reason for distancing themselves from the Club. We can change that but it will take all of us to support a better standard than often found here.
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:29 PM   #163
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My emoticon is Carol being bashed being called an intolerant bigot for doubting Airstream no longer making motorhomes will be the cause of the demise of the WBCCI. My offer still stands Bryan if I am a bigot, I'll eat your hat.
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:06 AM   #164
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Kicking the dog....

to sum up for those who are trying to comment on the tone of the discourse....

We can afford to disagree. We cannot afford to be disagreeable.

While the traditional values may not suit us now, I would assert that those values are what has gotten us here.

One man's opinion
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Old 03-07-2007, 08:42 AM   #165
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Show me the $$$

If I understand correctly, the WBCCI has about 1.2 million in funds. If they go out of "biz" today that 1.2 million would have to be split up and sent out to the members, 1.2million/6200 members= $193.54. I understand, since I've been a member for 5 years, I would not get the same amount as someone thats been a member for 20years. But, I may get enough to pay for a new set of lights for the 66 Overlander. The WBCCI is not going anywhere, we will have ups and downs, you don't just shutdown a 6000+ member club over night. It will be around even if it only has 1000+. I'm going to wait it out in hopes of some real cash since I did not when the "Power Ball" last night. Even if we lost 250 members per-year, thats 24 years before the lights are turned out. Even if you double that number, that's 12 years.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:04 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
wouldn't it be nice to be able to allow someone to put an idea on the table without this approach?

Isn't this pre-judgment exactly the same kind of 'attitude' that people have encountered in other unpleasant WBCCI experiences?

It is one thing to disagree, but to do so before you even hear what they say is something to think about.

It is another to express a disagreement with all the exclamation points and finality as well.

IMHO neither serve the WBCCI well but they do support the reputation of this corner of ASF that WBCCI is full of intolerant bigots - and that is not a good thing IMHO.
I think it is you that is showing intolerance. Carol has been perhaps the most civil of those who have expressed a disapproval of this motion that the IBT is proposing.

I have enjoyed reading Carol's post because there is no malice that I have noticed in any of them. Does she voice her opinion that the IBT is wrong...yes. Does she voice her opinion that the IBT is going about this the wrong way...yes. Does she voice her opinion that this motion will have a negative impact on the club...yes. Does she ever call names...I don't recall her doing so. I don't recall her ever doing anything in her post except express her disapproval. She has conducted herself in a most lady-like manner in all of her post. If anything, she has been a voice of reason in all of the hot-tempered debate that has gone on in this and other threads on the subject of SOB's in the club. In fact at the beginning of the thread, I thought she was open to the concept but realized after she attended the mid-winter meeting in January that she actually didn't support it.

I would rethink who you are calling intolerant. I have no problem with you, or anyone else supporting SOB's in the WBCCI. I don't like the idea and will vote against it. Would I try to encourage others to vote against it? Yes. Does that make me intolerant? No. I don't see how it does. It just makes me pro-active. It makes me a concerned member of this club. I may be new to the club, but I didn't join it to be a member of an "any RV" club. I could have joined Good Sam if I wanted that. But I wanted to be a member of an Airstream club and I will vote that way especially so soon after joining.

Go ahead and call me intolerant if you think I am. I deserve it far more than Carol does. Just make sure you go back through this thread and quote examples that you think support your belief that I am.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:05 AM   #167
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Another fine Leipper Lecture

Another fine Leipper Lecture - brings me right back to my school days and Mrs. Staub who may it a point to talk down to the students as if they were the most clueless creatures on the planet. You should use some of that for the leippermanagement.org web site - it's all good stuff.

BTW - Nice twisting of my little spelling error - I mistyped "war" intending to type "way" as in "if they had their way". You very skillfully took the ball and ran it to it's illogical conclusion. Nice work also psychologically analyzing wheel's little cartoon to mean something it most certainly does not. Your capacity for inference is truly impressive.

It seems to me that what you post on these forums is counter to what you post elsewhere on the internet, specifically things like the "Bill of Rights for Members, Provided by Bryan Leipper" where you quote the following members rights:
"The right to have all the facts, alternatives, and consequences
presented openly and the opportunity to discuss every item before voting.
"
and
"The right to full and free discussion of every item presented for a
group decision.
"
or even
"The right to have all the information available to any other member or officer."

In these "rights", it seems to me anyway, that you you take a position to quash the part about free discussion, such as what we attempt to have on these forums. You may not like the words exchanged here or even how they are presented but they are the feelings and responses of the members and prospective members of this club. Despite your best efforts, we still discuss the issue and still come to the same conclusion - it's a bad idea.

In all of those "rights", it seems to me anyway, the WBCCI is negligent. There is little to no opportunity to publish in the same venue that WBCCI uses an opinion which is counter to that of the leadership in general. And yes, we have tried. In the presentations made for example at the FSR, to the best of my knowledge no members were "invited" to offer up the counter positions. I am sure that a few got up and perhaps suggested some displeasure but no formal lengthy discussion. I know for fact that at the winter IBT meeting absolutely no opposing viewpoints were presented, a travesty in my opinion. In any event, I am mostly satisfied to use this venue and that of SaveWally as a medium to getting the opposing viewpoint out to members and prospective members.

Now I already know what you will say - you discuss this at the unit level and vote accordingly, blah, blah, blah. I am reasonably sure that in the discussions held on this issue, opposing viewpoints may not be presented for every single unit that discusses this matter. With the name change issue we heard too many reports where members stated that they were not able to express opinions about the issue. Fortunately, it is not a common situation with most units.

Anyway, Bryan, your viewpoint is interesting to say the least - I usually don't even understand the purpose or meaning of your posts but I am sure it must be my own ignorance holding me back.

Quote:
It will be around even if it only has 1000+. I'm going to wait it out in hopes of some real cash since I did not when the "Power Ball" last night. Even if we lost 250 members per-year, thats 24 years before the lights are turned out. Even if you double that number, that's 12 years.
Paul,
I had to laugh at that - very cleaver thinking. I love having that kind of levity in topics with serious themes. Still, I do believe the WBCCI will not survive as in the situation with the AVION TRAVELCADE CLUB. They simply do not exist anymore. They were overrun with fleetwood trailers of every size and shape. The club had to change the name to FLEETWOOD TRAVELCADE CLUB. In the case of WBCCI, I estimate that a similar thing will happen - and it will lead to the eventual formation of something like the THOR Caravan Club. I estimate that it will only be a few years for the Airstreams to disappear leaving behind a sea of white plastic and fiberglass.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:38 AM   #168
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Question Are 4 Winds MHs really going to take over WBCCI?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup
In the case of WBCCI, I estimate that a similar thing will happen - and it will lead to the eventual formation of something like the THOR Caravan Club. I estimate that it will only be a few years for the Airstreams to disappear leaving behind a sea of white plastic and fiberglass.
Buttercup,

I'm 100% with you in opposing this ill-conceived amendment, but I really doubt that WBCCI rallies would rapidly fill up with 4 Winds motorhomes if it were to pass. As thing stands, Airstream produces 1 - 2,000 aluminum trailers every year from whose new owners WBCCI recruits and retains only a small percentage as members. What is going to make 4 Winds MH owners any different?

The idea that opening up the club to non-Airstream owners will increase the membership is a red herring. What WBCCI is going to have to do to survive is figure out how to attract and retain more new members from the Airstream-owning population.

See you down the road,
Nuvi
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