Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-14-2006, 11:43 PM   #85
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
Personally, I think at this point I'd like to see the club split in two. We'll remain and keep the WBCCI and everyone that wants to see the club drop the history, the Wally Byam lineage and all the icons should very simply go and start the AOAI. What's wrong with that? I think that members that feel the way you do would be happy because you'd all be in like company. Because there is such a large difference of opinion in these two groups I think everyone would be better off.


__
I have always thought more than one Airstream club could exist. As it stands there are so many intra clubs that could be viewed almost as separate clubs now.

The WBCCI is and should be the WBCCI. Another Airstream club should be another Airstream club. Don't take away something that has stood the test of time for years when what you really want is something new and separate. Purging the two may not work best for either.

I am heartened that the WBCCI and it's members are striving to make changes. I think that desire and actions will esculate and show good results in the future with necessary improved communication. That message has been sent and received and I believe it will be corrected.

But we have also heard time and again that there are a great many of Airstreamers that would like to drop the entire Wally Byam thing. Personally I would belong to both clubs should a new one develop.

I can't understand why there is only room for one club or why the emphasis is on taking Wally from the Wally club.
__________________

__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 11:49 PM   #86
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
Bryan, I think that sums up the total of your efforts on your stance nicely. A perfect 'show me' example of your passions. Thanks for sharing...
I think that using selective quoting to create something out of whole cloth in order to pursue an ad hominem attack is not a good thing to do.

You also have goals. I disagree with your methods for working towards them but I do not use the fact that you have goals nor the goals themselves to denigrate you as a person.

Rather than take the "I like..." form of expressing goals and attacking that, why not list the goals and explain what it is you find objectionable about them and why? Tell me why expressing goals to define actions is a bad idea. Tell me why working within the system is to be shunned. Tell me why learning about social governance and being ignorant of civics is a good idea. Tell me why confrontation and combativeness is the best path to cohesiveness and group strength. Tell me why having an ignorant membership is better than the alternative. Tell me why decisions based on conspiracy and false assumptions are better decisions. You have promoted all of these by attacking the opposite. Is that really your position on these things?

Let's discuss ideas and not straw men or supposed opponents.
__________________

__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 12:32 AM   #87
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
hello eveyone,

I had just finished a posting to respond to this discussion , I have changed my mind about putting it up .Seems there is much anger here .i dont want to be involved in that .I believe it serves no useful purpose.I may also have changed my mind about any club ,wbcci or not .

Scott
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 12:39 AM   #88
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
C'mon Scott,

It serves a purpose to me. Don't let frustrations stop you from expressing yourself. I would like to hear your ideas. I am sure others would like to know what you were going to say too.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 09:02 PM   #89
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
Ill tell you what,I will redo my post this evening .If we all are cool .No one should be insulting anyone here ,lets get the ideas hashed out ,find common ground if...possible. Bryan where do you stand?

Scott
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 10:42 PM   #90
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
where do you stand?
Where I stand is of no consequence. Where anyone stands is of no consequence to say here as this is not a means to cast votes. Seeking such position declarations smells like collecting like minded sycophants for the purpose of emotional support and that often leads people away from their own gifts.

What these forums are all about is discussion of how views are formed and the rationale behind them and the consequences that might occur.

The service of forums such as these could be to provide those writing messages a means to clarify their thoughts. It could give those reading the discussions a chance to evaluate the differing views on issues and approaches towards solving problems and making decisions.

At least I thought that was what these forums were about but recent events and postings are giving me pause on that. It appears that the purpose is much more vulgar and personal. My stand on that is one of disappointment.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 11:19 PM   #91
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
Well ,thats enough of this for me ,all this twisting and turning of words,What the heck are you talking about ? I dont think most people can understand most of these pages ,or what direction its going .Its derailed into and insults and anger, passions are ok if they dont control you ,as it appears to be the case in this discussion.I wanted to talk about the original topic ,but Im not interested in combat.

Scott
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2006, 11:46 PM   #92
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Where I stand is of no consequence. Where anyone stands is of no consequence to say here as this is not a means to cast votes.

First off Bryan, I want to say you have a lot of good ideas and leadership skills and I appreciate hearing what you think. But your tastes seem to me to lean toward the philosophical and altruistic. I find many friends on this forum and most of my ties are not initiated by debate, whether here or in person. I enjoy listening to high minded banter but I myself am more of an earthy emotional kind of a slob, a real plain Jan, if you will. I like validation and flocking together with like minded people. That is not to say I don't truly enjoy others with opposing views because I do. I can even cover over for individual personalities that I may find quite different than my own if I think intent is honest and try to hear what someone is really saying without concentrating on their style of expression.



Seeking such position declarations smells like collecting like minded sycophants for the purpose of emotional support and that often leads people away from their own gifts.

What these forums are all about is discussion of how views are formed and the rationale behind them and the consequences that might occur.

I think that may be a part of the forums but I know there are plenty of posts that demonstrate simple interaction and spontanaiety on even the frivolous at times.

The service of forums such as these could be to provide those writing messages a means to clarify their thoughts. It could give those reading the discussions a chance to evaluate the differing views on issues and approaches towards solving problems and making decisions.

At least I thought that was what these forums were about but recent events and postings are giving me pause on that. It appears that the purpose is much more vulgar and personal. My stand on that is one of disappointment.
If you don't want to state a personal opinion on the matters discussed here that is your preference and your privilege. And I respect that. But conversely many would like to share their personal opinions and that should equally be their privilege. You are sharing your opinions you have chosen to share here however.

What I think is key to remember is that no one person's opinion regardless of how well ellocuted or elequently stated usurps another's. The tickling of one's ears may be pleasurable but not all use that as a measuring stick or basis of comparison for adopting a stance. We are all players, some are performing fine arts and some are poignant slices of life. I am equally engaged with the full swing of the spectrum here. The very spice of life we have right here among us at the forum.

Or...to be bawdy about it, being more comfortable with TV than events, history and rules of order, I will quote from Cool Hand Luke, I think that "What we have here is a failure to communicate.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 01:25 AM   #93
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested
What I think is key to remember is that no one person's opinion regardless of how well ellocuted or elequently stated usurps another's.
This is interesting. Why did this come up? Did someone make this assertion that some opinions usurps others? Is a de facto writing off of another person's opinion made any better by calling it "philosophical and altruistic" or complimenting them? Is there something about using American English that offends? (one reaon I have avoided offering explicit opinions is because of such accusations)

Wouldn't addressing the issues raised be more profitable and more in line with the published rules of these forums?

The thread is "Calling all WBCCI Members" and it was an announcement of a web site. The announcement was a commercial (e.g. item 7) solicitation presenting an agenda that was not clearly specified. It did not indicate its goals, the reasons for it being established the way it was, nor the reasons for not using established channels. This is why the nature of existing channels and how they operate is relevant in this discussion and critical to its fundamental thesis.

What anyone reading this thread will see is that when I attempt to bring issues related to these matters to the foreground, the response does not address the issues raised but rather me, my characteristics, or the manner in which I express myself. Or the response may bypass issues with a personal challenge. If this pattern of behavior is that used to promote the website's announcement, what does it say about the website and its advocates and their approach to issues and solutions to problems? Are they trying to clarify and discuss issues or is something else the goal?

I get the impression from this and other information that the approach is that the means will justify the ends and the ends are not to be questioned. This is scary.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2006, 02:07 AM   #94
Rivet Master
 
wheel interested's Avatar
 
2007 23' International CCD
Lapeer , Michigan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,039
I did not write off your opinion that your opinion is that you give no opinion when most are of the opinion that we and you should express our and your opinion.

Simply stated I was saying you're okay, Leo's okay , I'm okay. And let's go on.
__________________
Caroljb



photography
wheel interested is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2006, 11:22 PM   #95
Rivet Master
 
1960 24' Tradewind
santa barbara , California
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,352
Im glad to hear that.I just was conversing with a very nice lady in the tri county unit .She's 81 now.Her and her husband traveled evey time they could around the country since the early 60's in four different airstreams over the years .Much of what the wbcci was and still is kept them involved for 40 years.Her husband is gone now but she is still very active in the club.For her and for me Im glad to hear it.

Scott of scottanlily
__________________
scottanlily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2006, 07:30 AM   #96
Rivet Master
 
yukionna's Avatar
 
Massachusetts
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1964 17' Bambi II
Posts: 4,278
Images: 18
Send a message via Yahoo to yukionna
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
...
Forrest has now sent a letter to ALL 141 Unit Presidents advising them that a 'Point of Order' will be called in Salem Oregon that will challenge the entire series of events and can only result in them being ruled 'null and void' after a full delegate discussion takes place.
...
I received the letter and will share with folks at our upcoming business meeting.

Note -- my letter was addressed to my "first mate" and not me. That's ok, after a brief "scuffle" in the kitchen with hubby over who actually should open the letter, I prevailed and opened the letter that was rightfully mine!
__________________
WBCCI Region One

Attitude is the only difference between ordeal and adventure
yukionna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2006, 08:26 AM   #97
Rivet Master
 
till's Avatar
 
Lisle , Illinois
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,270
Images: 108
Blog Entries: 2
Going to vote today..........
This should be an interesting meeting.

See you all on the othere side
__________________
Tedd Ill
AIR#3788 TAC IL-10
1967/8 Overlander International Twin w/ bunk/s.
Yes, four kids and two adults in the thing.
Happy wife, happy life.
till is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2006, 08:46 AM   #98
Rivet Master
 
yukionna's Avatar
 
Massachusetts
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1964 17' Bambi II
Posts: 4,278
Images: 18
Send a message via Yahoo to yukionna
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT
...
EVERY WBCCI member can read Forrest’s letter in its entirety at SaveWally.org. Here's the link:

http://savewally.org/forums/index.php?topic=393.0
For those of you who don't have an account on the SaveWally website, I've included the text of the letter in this post...


Why Voting "NO" Is Not Enough

Dear Unit President,
On June 30, 2006 Unit Delegates will vote to change the WBCCI name to: AIRSTREAM OWNERS ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL, Inc. " Regardless of the outcome, I do not believe the vote will resolve the name change controversy when the motions that produced it were out of order.

Past-President Jim Haddaway's original motion did not propose that any of the words in the Club's name be omitted; only, and solely, that the word AIRSTREAM be included. The motion was out of order because it failed to specify where the word should be inserted.

His second conflicting motion was out of order because it gave the IBT approval to completely discard the WBCCI name and create an entirely new name so long as it contained the word AIRSTREAM. Yet, some delegates from that convention have stated they simply thought the motions would add the word AIRSTREAM to the existing WBCCI name.

Even if the majority votes "NO" on the AOAII name, the unfortunate effect of those poorly constructed, conflicting motions will result in the proposal being sent back to the IBT Name Selection Committee with instructions to come up with another name to present to the delegates in 2007. If the 2005 Action Item motions are not invalidated, each subsequent year may result in another round of voting. This is why it is so important to defeat the 2005 motions through a parliamentary process in addition to voting "NO" on the current Amendment.

One might argue that the committee should offer another name in 2007. Afterall, isn't that what the majority wanted? The answer is no, because the vote might have been different had there been knowledge of the WBCCI/THOR contract. In 2005 the membership did not know a license agreement would be required, or that such a contract would effectively give Thor Tech, Inc. control over our Club name, logo, and merchandising. Up to now, the Name Selection Committee has told the membership that the Club is well protected because the Club's own attorney authored the contract. What the Committee failed to disclose is that the Club's attorney is also Thor's attorney.

It is difficult, if not impossible, for an attorney to properly represent multiple clients when they have conflicting interests. In a letter to me from the law firm of FAULKNER, GARMHAUSEN, KEISTER & SHENK, Attorney John Garmhausen, stated that both Thor and the WBCCI assured him that there was no conflict of interest. Clearly, there is a conflict, and we deserve an attorney who has only the interests of the Club in mind to negotiate the contract.

The existing contract is designed to protect AIRSTREAM, and that is to be expected. Thor has a duty to protect its trademark, and that is why any contract will essentially require the IBT to delegate supervision of the Club name, logo and merchandising to Thor Tech, Inc.

There is no provision in the WBCCI Constitution to delegate supervision or control to an outside entity, such as Thor. It violates Article V, Powers, Section 1, C. of the WBCCI Constitution, and as stated in Robert's Rules, "As a general principle, a board cannot delegate its authority."

The unconstitutionality of the current contract poisons the name change amendment making it also unconstitutional and subject to a point of order from the floor at the 2006 Delegates Meeting.

Certainly, we enjoy a wonderful and trusting relationship with the friendly folks at AIRSTREAM, but the contract requires the Club to simply have faith in the continued benevolence of a conglomerate, and that is a poor business decision. In today's volatile world any company might be sold, the management replaced, the workforce outsourced, or the factory moved to a foreign country. New owners and management might not be inclined toward cooperation and good will.

As Delegate for the Denver Colorado Unit it is my hope that you will share this information with your respective Unit, and instruct its delegate to vote "NO" and likewise support me in my effort to obtain a ruling that declares the 2005 Action Items "null and void."

By electing a presiding officer, an assembly delegates to him the authority and duty to make necessary rulings on questions of parliamentary law. Should the presiding officer rule that my points of order are “not well taken” any tow members have the right to Appeal his decision. By one member making (or “taking”) the appeal and another seconding it, the question is taken from the chair and vested in the assembly for final decision. This is where the support of your delegate comes in. Regardless, of where you and your members sit on the name change, please ask your delegate to become familiar with the Appeal process. It can be found in Robert’s Rules of Order, pages 242 to 252.
__________________

__________________
WBCCI Region One

Attitude is the only difference between ordeal and adventure
yukionna is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WBCCI Membership for free thenewkid64 WBCCI Forum 17 05-01-2011 11:17 PM
WBCCI and local Units Stougard WBCCI Forum 54 02-28-2006 09:46 AM
WBCCI family/children/pet friendly? ViewRVs WBCCI Forum 66 01-08-2006 08:34 PM
WBCCI Survey smily WBCCI Forum 33 11-13-2005 10:08 AM
Are Forum members WBCCI members? 83Excella WBCCI Forum 8 07-03-2002 12:37 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.