Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-13-2006, 11:50 AM   #71
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Why doesn’t this club have a one member one vote policy in place?
Because the membership chose another form of representation and delegation when the club was formed. A student of US History or Robert's Rules or the WBCCI could learn a lot about consensus politics and the necessities of governance by representation in widely dispersed organizations and the solutions that have been shown to work. It should be a part of every citizen's civic education, IMHO.

There is a reason why things are the way the are. A first step to change is understanding those reasons properly.

Quote:
Members are mad, angry, disappointed, disgusted, considering dropping their memberships all over this name change issue.
The voting does not indicate that this is a good generality. It would also be rather sad because for such emotions to govern one's life would make for a rather bitter existence, IMHO.

Quote:
If you still think you’d like to try and change my personal stance ...
Challenges are never productive towards consensus. It is a win/lose approach that seldom contributes towards healthy groups (or healthy people). It creates conditions where some members are loosers. Is that really a desired goal in any organization?

Responding to such challenges would be foolish because people do not change that way. Efforts are better spent for those others who read and discuss and think; who realize that very few things in the real world are black and white; who have an open mind and a willingness to learn about issues and events and history. These are the people who are being addressed. They are the ones we can depend upon for solid well reasoned decisions that, overall, will make for long term health and vitality.
__________________

__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2006, 04:47 PM   #72
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
What can we learn? What is next on the agenda?

First, the blame is not with the IBT, it is with the membership. Always has been and always will be. We vote not only by activism but also by apathy. We have responsibilities that we can meet or ignore depending upon what we think important. We have responsibilities to run for office, to serve, and to do so with integrity and diligence. We will reap our rewards and see the consequences of what we do or don't do for and with our organization.

Second is that cohesiveness and unity are not served by finger pointing, blaming, and acerbic or divisive us-vs-them rhetoric. It is not served by failing to accept the consequences of one's own actions or being disloyal when a proper decision has been made that we do not like. It is not served by using innapropriate procedures to correct faults or other problems.

Third is to figure out why the WBCCI exists. What is it? What makes is special and unique? Is it an acerbic debating society or perhaps something else?

Fourth is to look at what the organization does and what we do in the organization when measured against why it exists. Does it contribute? Detract? Or just spin wheels? When we act within the club or in its name or in some way related to the club, do our actions reflect what the club is all about?

Finally we need to look at how we can strengthen those actions that emphasize why WBCCI exists and furthers its identity and purpose and reason for being. Let go of those things that are not WBCCI; tend and care for those that are.

SaveWally is one way to overcome and bypass perceived problems in the organization and get the word out. But I wonder what would be the outcome if, rather than finding enemies to fight, it started with one on one debate and creating friendships? I wonder what would happen if the efforts involved in communications were directed instead towards helping WBCCI become more effective in utilizing those methods? If instead of picking fights and being combative the efforts were more towards training, enlightenment, and persuasion via example and demonstration?

Is WBCCI about circling the wagons anticipating an Indian attack? Or is it about getting to the top of the next horizon to share the view with friends?
All very nice points. But the organization is structured to minimize member input. Look at how elections are run, one candidate for each position secretly selected by the nominating committee which seems to spring out of a whole in the ground. Like Cuba your choice is to vote or not vote, period.
The point here is the IBT reasons only they know have offered the club to Thor. At least they could disclose what they will get in return.
__________________

__________________
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2006, 05:02 PM   #73
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
Challenges are never productive towards consensus. It is a win/lose approach that seldom contributes towards healthy groups (or healthy people). It creates conditions where some members are loosers. Is that really a desired goal in any organization?
You are wrong. Consensus is for those too weak to present their position and stick up for it until the vote is counted. Voting means some win and some don't. Your idea that someone is a loser if their side doesn't win, so don't have any conflict like voting, sounds like play nice children and let those who know best decide. I am not a child, I love conflict, I teach conflict to those who have been convinced to be victims, and I am for WBCCI. Not the IBT benefit package, not AOIAOAI ect or Thor.

PS. Membership in Wally's A Carnival Club International is open to everyone who shows up in an Airstream. Sticker will be ready soon... \

Join WACCI ... give'em a wack...
__________________
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2006, 10:21 PM   #74
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
But the organization is structured to minimize member input. Look at how elections are run, one candidate for each position secretly selected by the nominating committee which seems to spring out of a whole in the ground.
Many (even perhaps most) organizations like WBCCI are hurting for volunteers to step forward. Why don't you have your Unit delegate nominate you from the floor? When is the last time you asked the President for a slot on the nominating committee? When is the last time you corresponded with your Region officers about filling an empty position?

There is nothing secret unless you choose to equate ignorance, apathy, and lack of participation with secrecy. (but claiming secrecy and conspiracy is oh so much jucier!)

I also do not agree that the organization is "structured to minimize member input" as the length of time and the process involved in the name change debacle (debate?) so clearly illustrates. It is structured so that important issues are not hastily implemented and the will of the members has time to be felt and realized - just as is now happening.

Quote:
You are wrong. Consensus is for those too weak to present their position
Such judgment! And such an error on the nature of consensus.

Consensus requires strength. Consensus has to do with having the courage to accept other people, listen to their point of view, attempting to persuade them to your point of view or at least educate them about things they may not have considered. Consensus means accepting a vote and taking the result as one's own even if it is not totally in line with your views and opinions. Consensus means having the courage to set aside personal ambition, greed, and preference for a greater good and greater strength in appropriate circumstances.

Check out what Robert's Rules says about the goal of a deliberative assembly in making decisions!

Quote:
The point here is the IBT reasons only they know have offered the club to Thor
This is a gross misreading of the offered and negotiated agreement. It would stand no rigorous impartial inspection. But the assertion is a good example of just how irrational the so called debate has become.

Quote:
If someone wants to LEAD this club priority number one should be giving members real voting rights including members-at-large.
No one 'gives' voting rights. Membership is not an entitlement. People make choices when they join (and joining is voluntary) and those choices have consequences. The organization decides how it is to function and operate and who has what privileges. It conveys voting privileges as a contract expecting something in return.

And, of course, we have the "back in 1955' canard. How about back to 1776? or 1215? Technology may change but people in societies have not. The issues, needs, rights, and responsibilities are a common thread and the solutions found over past centuries provide learning that is used today in establishing customs, rules of procedure, and governance methods in all successful organizations.

Quote:
I certainly don't want them attempting to lead me anywhere!
The issue is, then, why don't you lead? Step up, step forward. Get out and convince the membership to elect you. Show that you can lead. Yes this takes work. Yes it takes effort and learning and skill. Yes it takes committment and time.

Its a lot easier to sit and carp and carry on and pretend a reality that doesn't exist by making up conspiracy theories and denigrating those ideas that do not fit in your world.

It's a whole lot harder to learn about governance, why it is the way it is, to meet and greet people and get them to see you as a leader to follow and whose ideas are well considered and worth a hearing.

In this thread, the issue should be how best to convince WBCCI voting members that the name change proposed for a vote in the upcoming meeting be turned down. The question is whether all of this diatribe about secret orders, conspiracies, selling out, membership entitlements, and so on is helping or hurting the desired position.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 05:56 AM   #75
Rivet Master
 
yukionna's Avatar
 
Massachusetts
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1964 17' Bambi II
Posts: 4,278
Images: 18
Send a message via Yahoo to yukionna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Over59
You are wrong. Consensus is for those too weak to present their position and stick up for it until the vote is counted. Voting means some win and some don't. Your idea that someone is a loser if their side doesn't win, so don't have any conflict like voting, sounds like play nice children and let those who know best decide. I am not a child, I love conflict, I teach conflict to those who have been convinced to be victims, and I am for WBCCI. Not the IBT benefit package, not AOIAOAI ect or Thor.

PS. Membership in Wally's A Carnival Club International is open to everyone who shows up in an Airstream. Sticker will be ready soon... \

Join WACCI ... give'em a wack...
Not to belabor individual points, but I have a slight clarification -- "consensus" is not the process in conflict management but the goal. My clarification could be just a nit as I think perhaps Leipper was referring to "consensus building" which is the general term for the process/strategies used in conflict management to reach the goal of "consensus". The process of conflict management (i.e., consensus building) involves different strategies such as collaboration, compromise, competition, accommodation and/or avoidance. This thread is actually a good example for anyone wanting to understand conflict and consensus building -- if you look closely you can see all strategies in use. Fun to watch, for sure.

__________________
WBCCI Region One

Attitude is the only difference between ordeal and adventure
yukionna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 06:39 AM   #76
Rivet Master
 
LuminumTraila's Avatar
 
2006 19' Safari SE
NW of Boston , Massachusetts
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 987
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukionna
65GT -- Thanks for the concise summary of the past years events with regards to WBCCI, the IBT and the name change vote. Anyone who has been somewhat active on these forums should now understand the name change situation and its history. Additionally, you should be commended for your persistence and enthusiasm about making sure the message is out there...
Would just like to add my thanks to 65GT for the commitment, and for the wealth of information and history on the name change vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yukionna
My question to you and everyone else is what is next on the agenda after International? 65GT et al have pointed out areas within the WBCCI organization that perhaps should be revisited. What have we learned from this experience and how will we use these learnings in a constructive manner moving forward to drive changes?
Like 65GT and others have said in many threads surrounding the name change issue, communication (or the communication breakdown) is one thing that deserves priority attention. And just to give an example of one thing that could be done to improve the situation, I think a major reworking of the Blue Beret magazine is in order. It's a direct link between members and the International, maybe the only link on a regular basis. As it exists, much of it is a waste of print. That's not to insult any one person or office who works to get it out; I'm sure they work hard on it and do their best with what they're given. But imagine if it had been used over the last year to bring us the information on the name change vote that SaveWally has compiled, with discussion and debate by members and officers, a column of letters to the President and IBT, with their responses -- we would all have been much better informed on what was going on, especially our members who are not internet users.
__________________
Doug & Jamie, AIR #650
LuminumTraila is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 08:34 AM   #77
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by yukionna
Not to belabor individual points, but I have a slight clarification -- "consensus" is not the process in conflict management but the goal. My clarification could be just a nit as I think perhaps Leipper was referring to "consensus building" which is the general term for the process/strategies used in conflict management to reach the goal of "consensus". The process of conflict management (i.e., consensus building) involves different strategies such as collaboration, compromise, competition, accommodation and/or avoidance. This thread is actually a good example for anyone wanting to understand conflict and consensus building -- if you look closely you can see all strategies in use. Fun to watch, for sure.

The best way to resolve a conflict is to win...... The rest of the stuff is management consultant tactics to get people to agree with what the powers to be want and have them think it was their idea also. Thus the claim it was the members' idea to change the name. The superior tone of the three digit member is consistent with the leadership style of those who know what's best. Still WACCI membership is open to everyone and dedicated to keeping Wally in the game....
__________________
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 08:45 AM   #78
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Thanks yukionna for a good point and clarification. On the other topic raised ...

The purpose of a nominations committee is to assure that there is at least one good candidate for each office.

The purpose of the "escalator run" is to provide training so that the leaders of the association have hands on experience in the different aspects of its operations.

We see again a misguided effort, I think. It is based on a false premise and two questionable assumptions. The premise is that the only way to put a candidate on the ballot is through the nominations committee. The assumptions concern any need for elected officer experience and training and the idea that having multiple choices will mean better choices.

I think a better guided effort would be to suggest an alternative for developing experienced, talented, and dedicated association leaders (other than wishful thinking to fill a ballot). Find new ways to improve the leader training and development. Figure out how to encourage people to step forward and undertake the leadership responsibility.

In my view, castigating those who did step forward and maligning them is no way to encourage others to step forward as well. We need to support, encourage, and assist those who do put it on the line - those who don't just talk but actually commit to action. They need all the help and encouragement they can get - especially in troubled times. When we show that we support, encourage, and assist our leaders then I think we will see their replacements more eager to step forward.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 08:51 AM   #79
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
The best way to resolve a conflict is to win
The lesson from history is that the best way is for everyone to win. That creates unity and strength.

A win for the purpose of making someone else loose creates division and, eventually, dissolution.

from what I see "The superior tone of the three digit member" is hardly matched by the tone and 'tude of the conflict generators and conspiracy mongerers.

But I have to be careful, here. I have a "three digit number" as well. But I don't think it is one of those you set aside as a part of the group to hate. That business of segregation to create a group to impugn and denigrate is one that readers of this forum should consider very very carefully.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 09:36 AM   #80
Rivet Master
 
66Overlander's Avatar
 
1962 22' Safari
2016 30' Classic
Somewhere , in the USA
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,973
Images: 41
I am strongly against AOAI and I am a staunch SaveWally supporter, but I have to agree that casting this issue as an "us vs. them" situation is not the best way to acheive the desired results with respect to the name change or any other issue.

I want to thank those that have stepped up to club leadership positions, because without Leaders, there wouldn't be a club. Maybe at the local Unit level things could be pretty informal, but to run an organization the size of WBCCI takes time and commitment. Time and commitment that I don't currently have (at least while I am working).

I beleive the name change was put forth by our leaders in good faith that it was what the membership wanted (or at least something they would agree to). However, I think the issue is that the proposed new name (AOAI) came back far too "radical" for most members tastes and far more radical that the previous vote to "add Airstream to the current name of the club" implied. Leadership needs to recognize this fact and stop the adamant support and lobbying for AOAI. If they'd recognize this fact and open up a better dialog with the club members, this situation could be improved and a better proposal developed.

For us merely club members, I continue to endorse a proactive course of action if you don't support AOAI:
- Visit SaveWally.com
- Converse with your Unit, Region, and National officers on this motion
- Educate others in your Unit about this topic (especially those without internet access)
- And by all means do whatever you have to to make sure your vote is counted

I know I have done all of this, including conversing with 2 Region Presidents, and even the head of the Name Change comittee himself on this issue.

What will you do?
__________________
Joe
Wally Byam Caravan Club International Historian
Vintage Airstream Club Historian
WBCCI/VAC #6768

(Looking for a vintage 1960's fiberglass front window guard)
66Overlander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 10:21 AM   #81
2 Rivet Member
 
1989 37' Airstream 370
Hastings , Minnesota
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 63
Blog Entries: 1
I am sitting in my MH right now looking out of the front window and can see two currant region presidents both with three didgit numbers. They both are in high power mode. No wonder your club is in trouble.


Pat370
__________________
Pat370 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 12:13 PM   #82
Rivet Master
 
1975 29' Ambassador
Reno , Nevada
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Let's try and pin you down shall we. You are very good at avoiding questions and taking positions -- bravo. ... What is your position on the name change? What are YOU doing to help get the word out and educate people so that they can make an informed intelligent decision? How many people do you think you’ve influenced?
Back to the challenges, inane unfounded accusations, and ad hominem? Really now.

What I am doing is first to not brag, throw around tough words, call people names, make baseless accusations, promote conspiracy theories and conflict, and so on.

I'd rather work in a more constructive vein and within the system. I'd like to work towards helping as many others as possible think rationally and understand the issues and the consequences of bad behavior and bad decisions. I'd like to address the underlying problems and not the symbols of those problems.

Some folks will spend their efforts jumping up and down in angst and I can do little for them. But there are a lot more out there who are reading and thinking and pondering and perceiving. The more they know and the more they see the more confident I am that they will see things the same way I do. At the very least, I will have better confidence that decisions made are well founded.

The measure of the influence will be seen first in the votes that guide the actions of the organization and then in the longer term health and vitality of the organization.
__________________
bryanl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 10:20 PM   #83
Rivet Master
 
Over59's Avatar
 
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam , Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
Images: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leipper
I'd rather work ......within the system.
That's very clear.
__________________
Over59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2006, 10:53 PM   #84
Happy Trails
 
bhunt's Avatar
 
2005 16' International CCD
Currently Looking...
Currently Looking...
Delaware , Ohio
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 32
To introduce my viewpoint: I'm a one year member of WBCCI. I feel I represent a new and contrary voice in the Airstream world...one not in awe of Wally and in fact a little embarassed by all the Byam hype and associated icons like berets, numbered trailers, and decals of Wally. What I clearly like is the Airstream design...not the Classic interior which still looks more like a funeral home, but rather the International and the Safari SS interiors and of course the beautiful exterior of all Airstreams. I also clearly like the potential for mutual appreciation of Airstreams and the lifestyle they engender. The more the club finds a voice for the future, the more inclusive the club is for people of all ages, the more I like it. I sense that younger members could care less about Wally. I'd be embarassed to wear a beret and I don't like the look of a big number on the front of my Airstream. Instead of holding on to these corny details, the club needs to work harder on real comraderie, particularly toward younger members, and needs to mothball, respectfully, the icons of the 1950s. Airstream and WBCCI have a wonderful history, worthy of respect and documentation. But both need to move into the 21st century with a new WBCCI name that clearly describes the subject of the club's interest—Airstreams.
__________________

__________________
bhunt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WBCCI Membership for free thenewkid64 WBCCI Forum 17 05-01-2011 11:17 PM
WBCCI and local Units Stougard WBCCI Forum 54 02-28-2006 09:46 AM
WBCCI family/children/pet friendly? ViewRVs WBCCI Forum 66 01-08-2006 08:34 PM
WBCCI Survey smily WBCCI Forum 33 11-13-2005 10:08 AM
Are Forum members WBCCI members? 83Excella WBCCI Forum 8 07-03-2002 12:37 AM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.