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Old 04-05-2010, 12:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dwightdi View Post
I do not believe the HQ of WBCCI has the e-mails online and available to non-members. They failed to publish them in this year's International Directory by mistake. They then made them available to people who (after being verified as members) via e-mail attachment. After you give them out to members, you can not control how those members might use them. I believe they considered this before they sent out the few files to a selected group of members. I received a set and would never forward them to any person who I did not trust to use them ethically. There is a difference between legally and ethically.
I see your points and understand your position. Just sayin'.......

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Old 04-05-2010, 12:05 PM   #44
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I believe they considered this before they sent out the few files to a selected group of members. I received a set and would never forward them to any person who I did not trust to use them ethically. There is a difference between legally and ethically.
Again SELECTION is the key word when it come to the IBT. If your on the inside anything goes. You can use the e mail list, you can berate "mere members" from the front table, you can pour your ice tea where you want, you can camp up to 26 days for free at the International, you can even receave one of the new trophies with the plastic bottoms, that save the club money.

But if you are not one of the SELECTED you d+++ well better not step out of line.

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Old 04-05-2010, 03:35 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
As a point of reference, a member friend of mine pointed this out which I'm told is located on page two of the member directory:

Of course lawyers would argue this because that's what they do, but it does seem fairly clear to me that this was in no way a "personal correspondence"...and dwightdi is right there is a difference between ethically and legally.
It sounds personal to me. Just because you want to contact as many members as possible does not change the personal appeal of the message. Who can put the numeral limiter on number of associates or friends?

I have had more e-mails and pms on Air Forums from people I have not previously met than ones that I have. I can also add they have all been welcome and I have enjoyed the contact without controlling who can and can't contact me. Well some I don not like what is said but that is such with life, I will listen to everyone a time or two unless they are offensive. I get spam too but this Defend Wally message to members is nothing like the unrelated spam I receive. This is the internet and communications of the present and future. To give your e-mail is to invite contact, period. Don't want unsolicited calls, have an unlisted number, period.

As per norm, we are talking IBT control issues. Even the public forum for members is not allowed to freely express themselves. The communications are all run as strict press releases and nothing short of the "approved" message is allowed to be labeled WBCCI. Letters from mmebers must be approved by the International President and so on with each article submitted to the Blue Beret. Anything contrary is said to break the code of ethgics...though THAT particularly claim has long been unclaimed!

The only crimes the grievance served members have been guilty of is speaking their minds. Bob Thomson as a member of the IBT and region president criticized the board and then was locked out of his rally and escorted away. Tim, Buttercup, past VAC membership chair, has been threatened to not file a grievance or be grieved upon himself for the doing, Leo G. also od Save Wally has been warned, banned and extracated for his writings and opinions to try to stimulate the geberal membership of the club. It is propaganda or silence. They are hardly bashful to exert their power over members instead of using their offices to empower the members.
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Old 04-05-2010, 04:29 PM   #46
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Supplying your e-mail address to the WBCCI has always been optional. If you supply it, you are giving your approval to be contacted. It is required for you give them your address also so they can send you your copy of the Blue Beret. I am not sure whether WBCCI has the right to publish it, so you can be pestered by companies who might buy a membership, so they could get hold of a directory and do mass mailings.

At one company I worked at in the 70's, the internal phone book was confidential and Head hunters would pay up to $200 for a copy.

Calling for improvements to be made to the club to better target worthwhile benefits to the average members (so it could better retain members and attract new members) is most likely ethical and should be done. Letting other members know via e-mail or postings on a forum what you think should be improved is also most likely ethical. The 2020 Committee has called for all units to hold meetings in the next two months to elicit the needed changes and has called for the Unit and Region presidents to summarize them for presentation to the IBT in June. It sounds like the same thing which was done two years ago.

The real changes necessary would require the club to re prioritize the benefits toward financially supporting camping. The club was set up as a touring club to benefit people who have the time and money to tour (caravan). Most of the dues come in from members who just camp. 35% of the dues money goes to support older officers who have time tour and promote the International and Regional rallies as they tour. We have way too many officers on tour for the size of the remaining club.
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Old 04-05-2010, 06:33 PM   #47
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Back to April's IP Newsletter

Allow me to digress a little from the digressions from Carol’s initial posting on this thread, and try to focus on consequences of WBCCI’s lack of beneficial communications with us mere members:

In today’s world, Emails, AIRForums, and Social Media in general, have become the default means for sharing our ideas. Negative comments that identify issues are important precursors of problems. There is a strong correlation between the amount of attention given to an issue and future consequences. Progressive organizations react appropriately. They know that such content is now used to predict real-world outcomes.

Our postings are largely dismissed by the old-boy network. The IP/EC7 should understand the issues, and then assess the risks, especially if they decide to forgo corrective actions. They can’t all be groupthink lemmings.

The number of outspoken individuals is a clear metric. But a comparison to the unspoken majority is meaningless, because the silent majority cannot be assumed to concur with business as usual. In all reality the older generation are short-term members, with short-term objectives. A few might acknowledge the problems, but eventually all will simply age out before the club dies out.

At a deeper level the forums express a collective wisdom which, when analyzed, can yield accurate indicators of future trends. Membership losses are the predictor of declining health. Little is being done to slow it, stop it, or turn it around. A true leader would know what to do.

The few past business meetings or “pep rallies” have only offer more reasons for negative comments. Justified or not, the supporters are targeted for attacks right here everyday. A good example is the reaction to the President’s April Newsletter comments in Carol’s #1 posting on this thread. Things are now so bad that they just can’t satisfy us no matter what they say.

Why is it that only one of the eight new ‘officer nominees’ listed their “GOAL”?
Many have good leadership experiences, but that hasn’t played out when they’re in positions of authority. We shouldn’t expect campaign promises, but at least they could state what intended goals will work to achieve.

Organizations need leaders. There is little evidence of real leadership in the recent past, and little hope for real leadership in the current WBCCI pipeline.

Conclusion: The IP/EC7 can ignore disgruntled members at the risk of degrading the club. At the end of the day, through lack of leadership skills, neglect or ignorance the fate of our club is what’s important.
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:06 PM   #48
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there is implied consent that anyone who has access to that directory can and may contact you----using those addresses. They are in a hard copy and become public information, don't they? Maggie
I agree with you for a change

The key phrase "membership list may be used for personal correspondence by any member" but the fact that it didn't apply to the 2010 book because they weren't published.

next if an electronic list was sent it didn't contain any prohibition of use.

Case closed!
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:50 PM   #49
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Writers don't have to censor their opinions because other readers don't agree with what they have to say and/or do when they are away from this forum. It is surprising to read that complaint over & over again. Maggie
Actually Maggie, I made a posting in my blog at Airstream Life a couple of years ago and some members of AirForums took offense to it (despite the fact that I did not mention names or locations). At first, they tried to bully me into making a retraction and removing the post. When that didn't succeed they bullied the editor with a deluge of emails with large attachments. Since my editor at the time did all his business while traveling he usually had slow internet connections, and the slam from the emails interferred with his ability to run the magazine. He is a fervent advocate for freedom of press, but I had to remove my post. So, its true, what you do off of this forum can still result in being censored.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:06 AM   #50
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Saying that the membership directory is confidential is different from actually making it confidential. Printing out 6,000 copies and mailing them out to a membership that has not signed a confidentiality agreement makes the directory public, not private. How much more public could a "directory" be? Phone books for small towns are smaller with less distribution. This directory goes all over the nation (even to some other countries). So, what state or country would accept a civil complaint? Where is the jurisdiction? Where is the venue?

Plainly, the directory is not private and therefore is not confidential. Saying so doesn't magically make it so. All the information in the directory is obtainable via other public resources, such as a telephone book. The only thing the directory does is identify members.

The directory does claim copyright though, and the purpose of the restriction is to protect the copyright. At least that is how it was explained to me a number of years ago. Most restrictions say something to the effect that no part of the publication can be copied or reproduced without permission of the author, etc.

For instance, look up a member by the name of, Wally Garmhausen (#20000). There is no real member by that name. It is fictious. Garmhausen is the name of the club's lawyer (his first name isn't Wally). The name is placed there to enable the club to determine if the directory has been scanned, reproduced and redistributed.

In other words, the club can't prove a copyright infringement using real people because all that information is available via other public sources. But if the fictious name is reproduced that would prove that the data was "mined."

Normally, copyright is the "legal right granted to an author, a composer, a playwright, a publisher, or a distributor to exclusive publication, production, sale, or distribution of a literary, musical, dramatic, or artistic work."

Most of the directory is none of that. If it were Qwest could sue Yellow Book.

The membership directory says its information is confidential. After reading the definition of confidential I don't know how anyone can, with a straight face, say that is what the directory is.

From the American Heritage Dictionary, Confidential: Done or communicated in confidence; secret. 2. Entrusted with the confidence of another: a confidential secretary. 3. Denoting confidence or intimacy: a confidential tone of voice. See note at familiar . 4. Containing secret information, the unauthorized disclosure of which poses a threat to national security. con "fi·den"ti·al"i·ty ( -sh-²l-t) or con "fi·den"tial·ness n. con "fi·den"tial·ly adv.
1. (adj.) Deliberately hidden from view or knowledge:
· secret
· camouflaged
· clandestine
· covert
· private
· unadmitted
· unavowed
· underground
· undisclosed
· undivulged
· unrevealed
· untold
· unvoiced
· privileged
· open (antonym)
· disclosed (antonym)
· candid (antonym)
· public (antonym)
2. (adj.) Not intended for public disclosure; secret:
· unpublicized
· exclusive
· hush-hush (informal)
· off the record
· private
· privileged
· undisclosable
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:59 AM   #51
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If folks feel as Forest describes, I'd suggest keep using it in the manner the VO has done, and let the chips fall where they may.....
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:54 PM   #52
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If folks feel as Forest describes, I'd suggest keep using it in the manner the VO has done, and let the chips fall where they may.....
Wow we got Silvertwinkie's OK. That means we are on a roll now. Next we will see his name as a supporter on Defendwally.org

Don't know about you but I will double down on that.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:49 PM   #53
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Considering you're the one that sent it (or were directly involved in it) HowiE, I'd not be so obtuse about how serious some folks are about your little stunt.....

You better double something if you keep up with your tactics....cause folks aren't playing around about this from what I've read here in post #1.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:26 PM   #54
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That almost has a threatening tone to it .....
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:28 PM   #55
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That almost has a threatening tone to it .....
I agree Buttercup and i find it really disturbing that twinkie is allowed to spew his sewage here in this manner.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:40 PM   #56
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You guys crack me up!

Hey no one is forcing you to read it or visit the thread, and it was pointed out that there is an ignore feature for those light at heart. I merely am pointing out what was clear to at least me from the post that was in the IP newsletter that started this thread. It's not my threat, but if you take it as such, so be it, there are no teeth behind it coming from me.... your IP (if you are a member) sent this. Given what has gone on over the past month or so, I myself would not take this lightly, but that is just me, folks gotta do what they feel is right or in their best interest- right, wrong or otherwise. Mixed in between is my opinion, which we're all entitled to express as long as it remains civil.

Quote:
"Using membership information in this manner is a direct violation of WBCCI’s policies and is subject to legal action."
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