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Old 01-31-2011, 12:40 PM   #113
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It certainly was not ethical or constitutional in its actions. There ought to be a removal or change in leadership over such serious and deliberate infractions as occurred.
I've been hoping that some of you might have picked up on my comment about Bob Moss speaking "I move..." The fact is that out of that very lengthy and public argument no motion was made.

That means that no business was conducted. Business is only brought before the assembly (in this case the board) through the process of making a motion (followed by debate and vote). As emotionally upsetting as it all was, the board failed to take any action on how the DENCO motion should be processed. Neither did the board assert any of its Constitutional authority over its Constitution and Bylaws Committee, or Chairman Don Shafer.

When Dan Neumarkel read sections from the Constitution to assert the board's authority, and asked if the board had authority or not, President Beu responded that, Yes, the board has full authority to interpret the Bylaws and Constitution, BUT the board cannot do something that is not constitutional (yes, I know that is a double negative).

This non sequitur is all too common among the leadership. How?It is true that that board has complete authority to interpret the Constitution and Bylaws. It is also true that the Board can not do something that is unconstitutional. Two statements that are used to contradict each other can not both be true. One must be false.

Yet, the President's response must have completely baffled the Board because they never asserted their authority. Instead, they allowed President Beu to renege on his promise.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:53 PM   #114
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Here's a very good explanation from Self-reference and Circular Reference

"We can have two (or more) statements that are not self-referential, but refer to each other. This situation can lead to the same logical problems that self-referential statements can, but the situation can be very complicated:"
"#1: Statement #2 is true."
"#2: Statement #1 is false."
"Assume statement #1 is true. Then statement #2 is true. But, statement #2 says that #1 is false, which is a contradiction. Therefore, statement #1 is false. That makes statement #2 false. But, statement #2 says that #1 is false, which is true, which is a contradiction. There is a circular reference going on here. These two statements contradict each other, and are neither true nor false."

"Do you actually believe that? Well, let's state: "Statement #2 is neither true nor false." Therefore statement #1, which says that #2 is true, is in fact false. So, it does have a truth value, after all. But, statement #2 actually says that statement #1 is false, which it is. Therefore statement #2 is true. So, both statements have truth values. Then we get right back into the circular reference: Statement #1 actually says that statement #2 is true, so it too is true, but it says that #1 is false... What I'm saying is that saying that either (or both) of the two statements has no truth value (true or false), leads to a contradiction, just as we do when we say that both do have truth values. And so, these two statements not only have no truth value, but they cannot even be examined with the tools of logic!"
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:03 PM   #115
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This all reminds me of something I was told when I was a cop: "If you can't dazzle them with logic, baffle them with B***S***."
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:59 PM   #116
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From one of my all time favorite movies,

It's all show business only not quite so splendiferous, however they do daze and dizzy us no more questions...well done!


YouTube - Razzle Dazzle Chicago Movie

and do we know any tap dancing committee members? Did they say renig on pledges? Corruption? It is enough!


YouTube - a tap dance

like puppets? Oh yes oh yes oh yes oh yes Who's talking now? Work that PR! It's so defensible, comprehensible, not a bit reprehensible.

YouTube - Chicago - We Both Reached For The Gun
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:15 PM   #117
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Yes, the board has full authority to interpret the Bylaws and Constitution, BUT the board cannot do something that is not constitutional
That statement by a member of the IBT should have been: the board has authority to interpret the Bylaws and Constitution*, so long as it is not unconstitutional.

The problem is: who ultimately determines what is permitted under statutes and organizational documents and what authority do they have to do so?

Since corporations do not have a supreme court, it is left to the board guided by the parliamentarian and sometimes lawyers, to interpret the organizational documents. The parliamentarian advises the chair and the chair rules on an issue. Such rulings, if the organization follows Roberts' Rules, can be challenged and overturned by a 2/3 vote. Members can challenge these things in court. Because there are state statutes governing corporate procedures, these often play a part.

Everyone has an opinion on what these rules and statutes really mean—there are no collections of words written by humans that don't mean different things to different people. Lawyers who spend years interpreting corporate documents and laws disagree at times. So do judges. Laws change and contradict bylaws and other documents. Documents and statutes are not always drafted well. Amendments are added that contradict other parts of a document or are drafted poorly. Interpreting is not easy.

I suppose corporate bylaws or Articles of Incorporation could provide for a "supreme court", but that seems like overkill and ultimately expensive. And it's clear to me a determined board of directors or other governing body can subvert the rules if it wants to—that's when the members can sue if they have the determination and money to do so. In small nonprofits like the WBCCI, the governing body can be fairly sure that won't happen.

Sometimes members can follow the political solution—organize and take over. That may takes years and years; for many it just isn't important enough for them to devote time for politics. There's the biological solution—eventually the leaders die, but they may have rigged the system to hand over leadership to clones. Other members simply go elsewhere or remain unconcerned. Most fall in those last 2 groups.

*In the law, the WBCCI "constitution" would be considered "bylaws". The WBCCI bylaws are rules or procedures that cannot contradict the "constitution", Articles of Incorporation or state and federal statutes and court rulings. Bylaws generally deal with internal governance—what the board does, elections, membership, amendments, grievances, conflicts of interest, standing and special committees, and other such details. The Articles usually are very simple and can be contained one page giving the organization flexibility to change as times change. Sometimes there are "rules", "policies" or "regulations" in a separate document that provide more detail, perhaps about rallies or caravan or in the case of my water company, details of water delivery and billing. The WBCCI calls these "bylaws" thus confusing the usual terminology. They may be easier to amend than the "constitution" in WBCCI nomenclature or "bylaws" in most corporations, or not. In an incorporated business, there may be an "employee handbook" which is somewhat similar to rules and policies and is another whole area of contention in labor law.

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Old 02-01-2011, 01:23 PM   #118
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That statement by a member of the IBT should have been: the board has authority to interpret the Bylaws and Constitution*, so long as it is not unconstitutional.
Gene,

You might be missing the point of my sarcasm. No matter how he might have phrased his statement, the WBCCI Constitution gives the board full authority to interpret the Constitution and Bylaws. Since they have that authority, there is nothing they can do that would be unconstitutional because they get to define what is and isn't - period.

That's what my amendment wants to change.

The odd thing about this past Mid-Winter IBT meeting, is that this board didn't seem to grasp that they have that authority and not the President. Yet, they let him bamboozle them into acting as though they don't. I don't know if he meant to do that, or if he acted on bad advice, but the result is evident. He's between a rock and a hard spot. It will be very difficult for him to regain his credibility and the longer he waits the worse it will get.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:24 PM   #119
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the WBCCI Constitution gives the board full authority to interpret the Constitution and Bylaws. Since they have that authority, there is nothing they can do that would be unconstitutional because they get to define what is and isn't - period.

That's what my amendment wants to change.
....the CURRENT WBCCI Constitution, again wait for the new one!
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:29 PM   #120
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....the CURRENT WBCCI Constitution, again wait for the new one!
Can you give us an ETA on the new draft?
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:35 PM   #121
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Lynn, we're in the proof reading phase,
if I were to say anything date/time wise I'll be chastised if it's a minute more.

So I'll only say the committee is working on it, ASAP
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Old 02-06-2011, 06:18 PM   #122
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Thumbs up joint statement from Norm Beu & Patti Reed

Friends

Prior to the Mid-Winter IBT Meeting at Robstown, TX last month, a Seminar Pre-Meeting was held for general discussion of motions to be presented later in the week. Participants included all members of the WBCCI IBT and Parliamentarian. It was agreed that motion 5 (Revised), submitted by Dan Neumarkel, Region 11 President, would be withdrawn after much discussion. This discussion was most helpful in explaining and resolving irregularities associated with submission of a proposed Constitutional amendment by the Denver Colorado Unit.

Following the Mid-Winter IBT, Patti Reed, DenCo Unit President, and I had an exchange of emails and phone calls. We have developed a detailed procedure which will move that Unit's proposal forward in a manner consistent with the Club's Constitutional requirements. She and I are of one accord. The required report from the Chairman, Constitution & Bylaws Committee is being written, and a standardized ballot with instructions for Unit Presidents is being prepared by Cindy Reed, Corporate Manager.

The purpose of this joint statement is to inform the WBCCI membership that a workable plan has been developed, and those procedures are underway.

Norm Beu
President, WBCCI

Patti Reed
President, DenCo Unit
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Old 02-06-2011, 06:33 PM   #123
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I am glad to hear that. If I have been following along correctly this will be sent to all the units to vote upon...(Forrest's amendment) and if the majority of units or regions or units in a region (???) accept it it is in.

We don't know when each unit will receive this.

We also are expecting each unit to receive a replacement constitution (?) or a motion to accept one. And we don't know when to expect that. Both should be coming shortly.

From what has been said here on the forums is that delegates are eliminated in the new constitution. So it would appear to me that units will need to accept one or the other and to expect that one will negate the other if accepted. Is that a reasonable conclusion upon my part?

It would have been clearer perhaps had the business been addressed, including the report refused by the C&B committee chair by the leadership at the mid-winter meetings in time for questions, and discussions and ETAs could have been given for the units to receive their paperwork. Both orders of new business will require unit discussion, time to assimulate the information and make possible inquiries and a vote to be taken at their spring or specially designated meetings before the International.

Thanks for the announcement Bob. I think many are relieved to hear of this outcome.
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:52 PM   #124
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This "accord" was a compromise. We had no other recourse after what happened at the Mid-Winter IBT.

I don't want to jinx the agreement by releasing details at this time. We have to wait for the C&BC report before anything else can be done. If and when that happens, the Units in Region 11 have to vote again, because their first vote didn't count (no C&BC report to guide them).

I believe the Colorado West Unit has folded, and the Wyoming Unit doesn't have meetings very often. So, it might be quite some time before the motion is certified again - maybe Fall 2011? I could be wrong. They might be so fired up about this that every unit will hold a special meeting. Even so, then all the other Units in the Club will have up to a year to ratify it.

Anyway, DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH! And don't be so "relieved," two small consessions are not much of a victory for the membership.

Forrest

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:14 PM   #125
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So, it might be quite some time before the motion is certified again - maybe Fall 2011?
If the "new, improved" constitution is adopted in June, then the amendment is moot anyway.

And since we haven't seen the new, improved constitution, we have no idea what provision, if any, it has for amendments.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:19 PM   #126
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I didn't realize that you had to start over entirely from the announcement that was made Forrest. What concession has been made if you are beginning anew and still without Don Shafer's recommendation that he said he would not give? The workable plan is merely a "do over?" What constitutes compromise on both sides Forrest?

No other choice? What about bringing charges against the IP and the whole of IBT? How about every one request refunds and hold a celebratory rally in leu of the International? Or what about removing the current leadership for not upholding their duries to the membership?

Just when is enough enough? Is this club's membership something any of the mere members want to buy into anymore? Runaway leadership has ruined the WBCCI. They should be ostracized without further fanfare. With the exception of the VAC and their relationship within the WBCCI there are zero benefits for mere members. Even the intraclubs could easily break away and let the anchor sink...
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