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Old 04-25-2011, 08:07 PM   #211
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I will predict now, if the WBCCI goes to the "Member Caucus" getting rid of the delegates with a 1M1V type voting system, the International Rally will become nothing more than a "Mid-Winter IBT Meeting" in the middle of the summer within a matter of a few years.
And what exactly do see wrong with that? Could serious regional rallies at much lower cost not accomplish even more. Maybe some competition among the regions might bring surprising results.

You could always lessen the Lawrence W. on your I Pod while enjoying a great rally.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:15 PM   #212
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Rick

How many votes are being lost by the fact that Tn. is not going to the International? Agreed not everyone in Tn. would vote electronically of 1m1v was available but those that would vote would at least be heard. This year they may not be heard at all.

Maybe some of those so adamantly advocating the retention of the Delegate system will begin to see the light when they realize Delegates are a thing of the economic past.
I believe TN will have an alternate delegate there. A couple possibilities were discussed. The Unit has around 40 members by my best guess. The new constitution has not yet been voted on..
Two years ago we tried mail voting and only 5 votes were returned which may be an indication of the interest of the average member across the club.
Last year I stopped a block vote by not supporting any of the ordained candidates for the nominating committee.
Hopefully we will get a better return this time
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:53 PM   #213
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Gosh Frank,
I thought you were about to tell us, "it is a myth, Wally's birth date isn't Jul 4". I guess i was sort of hoping you would, actually.

Jim
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:13 PM   #214
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Howie,

I guess, I'm just an old guy in a young man's body. I personally liked going to the International Rally in Vermont back in 2003 with 1800+ trailers if I remember correctly. It was great seeing so many trailers at one time.

Springfield, MO was OK. Don't remember the numbers (I think around 1200) I didn't like how they stuck the VAC on in the sluge field, but hey, I bought a 12' round pool (3 1/2 feet deep) stuck it in front of the trailer and had a good time anyway.

Perry, GA was the begining (around 900 if memory is good) of the end with the Shari Davis "smack down". After watching what happen there after a few days, I was ready to come home.

This club could be a great club and is in many ways. I'd just like to see it last long enough for my nine year old girl to have her own trailer with the red numbers on it.

The IBT/EC7 has the powers "today" to make the needed changes to this club, one that will bring members back and to the club by the 100's but only if they care to do so.

I'm afraid, if the New Constitution is passed two things will happen:

1. The "old guard" will resent the changes and then they to will start to drop like flies.

2. The New Constitution is nothing but paper and words, that in it's self will not save the club. As "Shacksman" said. It will require good people doing the "right" thing and I'm sorry the New Constitution will not change that.

Either way, it's not good.

A wise man once said to me:

"The road down is paved with good intentions"

Maybe it's time everyone just gave it a rest.
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:32 AM   #215
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Another wise man, a founding father in fact said

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.

Patrick Henry




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Old 04-26-2011, 08:15 AM   #216
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Facts you should know

Bob,

You quote a very great man, a Virginia man might I add;

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."

Which is great; if it had worked.

Much like our own Constitution, the WBCCI Constitution was not able to keep control of the people with the power of the purse and the power to regulate.

Look below for some interesting facts;

This data is from 2000 which add to that 6 Pages of Obamacare Law Equals 429 Pages of Regulations which will add another 140,000 pages of regulations to the already 134,723 (has of 2000) for a whopping 274,723 pages of just "Federal" regulations.

How Many Federal Regulations are There?
According to the Office of the Federal Register, in 1998, the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), the official listing of all regulations in effect, contained a total of 134,723 pages in 201 volumes that claimed 19 feet of shelf space. In 1970, the CFR totaled only 54,834 pages.
The General Accountability Office (GAO) reports that in the four fiscal years from 1996 to 1999, a total of 15,286 new federal regulations went into effect. Of these, 222 were classified as "major" rules, each one having an annual effect on the economy of at least $100 million.
While they call the process "rulemaking," the regulatory agencies create and enforce "rules" that are truly laws, many with the potential to profoundly effect the lives and livelihoods of millions of Americans. What controls and oversight are placed on the regulatory agencies in creating the federal regulations?

Federal Regulations About US Federal Regulations

6 Pages of Obamacare Equals 429 Pages of Regulations - US News and World Report

So, now knowing these facts;

Do you suggest we re-write the U.S. Constitution as well?
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:54 AM   #217
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Paul,

Keep talkin...your beginning to convince me.


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All one has to do is open each of these files to get an idea of what already exists in the way of the constitution (14 pages), bylaws(73 pages) and the appendix pages(91 pages) to the bylaws. Contemplate the work that went into creating these documents over the years.

BB Code Table of Contents Constitution3[1].pdf
BB Bylaws3[1].pdf (Check out pages 35-2, 36 and 37..$31,000???)
BB Appendix3[1].pdf

This revision can cause more problems than it will fix.

Still on the fence but , leaning hard in one direction.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:10 PM   #218
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Tom is this what you were getting at?

a. International President $8,625.00
b. International First Vice-President $5,250.00
c. International Second Vice-President $5,025.00
d. International Third Vice President $4,875.00
e. International Recording Secretary $2,665.00
f. International Treasurer $2,660.00
g. Immediate Past President $300.00
h. Region President For the year 2010-2011, $1,178.00. x 12 = $14,136
i. Region Vice Presidents For the year 2010-2011, $612.00. x 12 = $7,344

Current budget $50,880

In the Revised Constitution those costs would decrease immediately
no 3vp $4,875 and less regions/areas about 8246/4284 or $17,405

Reducing the travel as it is now totaling $50,880 to $33,475 or 35%

Vote no it stays at 50K


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Old 04-26-2011, 02:37 PM   #219
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Quote:
All one has to do is open each of these files to get an idea of what already exists in the way of the constitution (14 pages), bylaws(73 pages) and the appendix pages(91 pages) to the bylaws. Contemplate the work that went into creating these documents over the years.
I would hate to think how many hours went into all those pages on how to fly your flag, and all the additional pages on how to configure your badge, and of course what color it should be.


I wouldn't have a problem with modifying the existing bylaws and constitution if I could believe it could happen but after listening to all the feeds and what goes on doing something simple I can't picture it happening.

I think a clean start is needed..
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:44 PM   #220
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The bylaws are way too cumbersome, most of the language (or bulk) belongs in a "Policy Manual" not per se in the Bylaws.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:13 PM   #221
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Tom is this what you were getting at?

a. International President $8,625.00
b. International First Vice-President $5,250.00
c. International Second Vice-President $5,025.00
d. International Third Vice President $4,875.00
e. International Recording Secretary $2,665.00
f. International Treasurer $2,660.00
g. Immediate Past President $300.00
h. Region President For the year 2010-2011, $1,178.00. x 12 = $14,136
i. Region Vice Presidents For the year 2010-2011, $612.00. x 12 = $7,344

Current budget $50,880

In the Revised Constitution those costs would decrease immediately
no 3vp $4,875 and less regions/areas about 8246/4284 or $17,405

Reducing the travel as it is now totaling $50,880 to $33,475 or 35%

Vote no it stays at 50K


.
I seem to recall that several regional presidents mentioned that they did not take their full allotments but instead filed only modest expenses covering their actual expenditures so they had already run underbudget. I believe this was stated when the discussion of balancing the budget was "applied" towards region presidents by the EC without RP representation or authorization. It seemed a source of real contention during the simulcast meeting.

In regard to club expenses, what are those amounts that you have listed, flat dispersement or a cap? How much travel and rally fees does that include if any? Officers are able to submit expense reports for every "working" destination they choose to attend, correct? Thought to what is necessary business might be outlined and savings could come in the way of not engaging a caravan to the proposed international site but relying upon local RPs to do the legwork, just for one instance. Do others benefit from travel and rally expenses such as those committees needing to travel to the IBT and International rallies and various units? It would appear whomever has the say to deem something as necessary or as a club business related expense truly controls the spending. Choosing a plethora of early friends and workers to attend rallies an extra month without additional charge can also be problematic to limited resources though designed as recognition and a reward system. However it should not belong to the EC to act as gracious hosts in extending privilege at club members' expense with resulting higher rally and dues fees.

I worry too that without a delegate system in place even fewer will have a part in club business. Business may be limited to those that are in attendence, and not the panacea achievement of every member involvement with 1M1V in real life situation. For that matter an entire replacement constitution was forged by the appointment from the IP of 4-5 people and that is the total involvement of the mass undertaking put before the club presently. To me that reflects less involvement and input and certainly not more. Handshake deals outside the mainstream without summoning volunteers or extending the privilege to any member who would have liked to have served in that capacity were not solicited by the present leadership. There were specific reasons that those selected were chosen. The same reward system that is heavily used within the WBCCI is not only to reward a job well done but also to insure prompt service, as in a tip or compensation and in this case the dissolution of DW was the price given for the benefit received. Of course I am skeptical of that sort of representation and of the presumptive power that sanctioned its introduction.
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:33 PM   #222
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Some of the travel and thus the expenses are required by the current bylaws. My recollection is the region president is supposed to visit each unit annually. Simply changing that to read "as necessary" would save money. While they are always welcome they certainly aren't "necessary" for a swearing in ceremony for an example, The last financial I looked at showed our region president used all his.
Certainly reimbursement for necessary travel is reasonable. I think a more efficient approach would result in less travel expense
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:38 PM   #223
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Do we have a policy manual now? What is the savings if we just move some of the Bylaws over to a new "policy manual"? Who gets to write and approve the policy manual? How is the policy manual any different than the Bylaws?
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Old 04-26-2011, 04:46 PM   #224
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In regard to club expenses, what are those amounts that you have listed, flat dispersement or a cap? How much travel and rally fees does that include if any?
But your concern is not that a $17K saving that can be had, but you address incidental costs.


Quote:
I worry too that without a delegate system in place even fewer will have a part in club business.
How do you come to that theory, delegates don't go to the Int with 100% of their unit members votes in hand, it is perhaps 25-40% at best to begin with.
let's say the unit votes equally on both sides of the issue, how does the delegate vote with a spit vote?
Lets say the delegate doesn't go,
Lets say many are going for the first time and are unfamiliar with procedures,
Lets say they don't understand the issues themselves.
Lets consider the time constraints and peer pressure
...
Or none of the above come into play.

Members can go to the caucus or watch it video stream and hear all the debate.

Thereafter, Units can have meetings to discuss further if warranted

Then without pressure in a relaxed state of mind, each member votes,

An opportunity to participate not currently available.

Quote:
an entire replacement constitution was forged by the appointment from the IP of 4-5 people and that is the total involvement of the mass undertaking put before the club presently. Handshake deals outside the mainstream without summoning volunteers or extending the privilege to any member who would have liked to have served in that capacity were not solicited by the present leadership.
Carol, appointments are the way Special Committees are formed please see RONR.

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