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Old 08-30-2008, 12:25 PM   #29
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We don' need no steenkng insurance. . . or do we?

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Originally Posted by markdoane View Post
I was gonna ask an awkward question about insurance, but I see that has been covered.

Of the annual WBCCI dues, how much is for insurance, and how much is for executive travel expenses?
This is both a good, and an awkward question. If we are going to actually form a club, under whatever name, then it should be incorporated and should have liability insurance.

As for cost, I have one ready data point, which is my friendly local ham radio club. It's about the size of a fairly typical WBCCI unit (somewhere between 50 and 100 people) and we have a fair amount of liability exposure due to things like setting up portable towers at public events, emergency communications assistance to public agencies, etc. The club gets a million dollars of liability coverage for around $250 a year.

Forum rallies are a different animal. There is no "club" and everybody makes their own reservations. So if somebody wants to sue somebody I guess they have to sue an individual or individuals. Most of us have general liability coverage on our homeowner's insurance and many of us have liability umbrella policies on top of that. They don't cost much--around $100 for a million dollar policy.

A pitfall to be aware of is that you may be sued for something that you had nothing to do with if a creative plaintiff's lawyer could successfully make the argument that the forums, or a forum rally, in fact, constitutes a "club", which, since it isn't incorporated, constitutes a general partnership. Then, as a general partnership, the partners are jointly and severally liable for the actions of the partnership. This is a Very Bad Thing, because now it means they don't even have to sue everybody, they can just pick the people with the deepest pockets.

I'm not an attorney, but this is how it was explained to me by an attorney who joined a club of which I was a member. He refused to join the club unless it was incorporated as a not-for-profit corporation, which job he did for us for free.

I am pretty sure there are attorneys on Airforums who could give us more information on this subject--hopefully one or more will comment.
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Old 08-30-2008, 01:22 PM   #30
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Nuvi
I am not one for clubs. But I think your idea might just fly.With what U have suggested like local Units keeping their own dues and or fees,no dress codes,just havin fun to be the order of business. I think Wally would approve.He was for adventure and fun.
If we can get the ball rollin to form a new Camping Club ,I think we would probably be there to help support a local Unit. It appears our local unit has died. I think we should also allow anyone who wants to attend a rally of the New WALLY BYRAM CAMPING CLUB no matter if they bring a tent.Its supposed to be about camping and havin fun. It happened that way at the Detroit-Metro Rally and a good time was had by all .We were able to show everyone that we are just people have'n fun too. I hope we gave some people the insight of what Airstreamin' is all about.
Carol will tell ya we had a great time.
DO IT Lets see where this bus goes!
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Old 08-30-2008, 01:53 PM   #31
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I definitely think the Club should be open to both WBCCI members and non-WBCCI members. This is the only way that you would get the loyalist unit members to agree to separation from the International. They would have to be able to be a member of both; those that have been members of WBCCI for 25-30 years would never leave the WBCCI.

I would consider a joint membership in both.

You'd also have to get Airstream Corporate's permission. Remember we are the airforums.com here not the airstreamforums.com because of Airstream Corporate's legal issues.
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Old 08-30-2008, 02:31 PM   #32
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Yet me toss in some pennies here. Incorporation for non-profit is easy and for the lazy... we could just use LegalZoom.com to get it setup.

We would need articles of incorporation, specify a at one "board meeting" a year and fill out the President and Secretary positions at a minumum... but probably pick out a VP and Treasurer as well.

We would need someone to do the research on insurance. And someone would need to write up basic bylaws... the shorter the better.

As for the greivence process... I recommend best 2 or 3 falls of "paper-rock-scissors".
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Old 08-30-2008, 02:32 PM   #33
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You'd also have to get Airstream Corporate's permission. Remember we are the airforums.com here not the airstreamforums.com because of Airstream Corporate's legal issues.
Wally Byam Camping Club. Do you see Airstream's name in there somewhere? If not, where's the trademark issue with Airstream?
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Old 08-30-2008, 03:07 PM   #34
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I think someone needs to get PEE WEEs imput on this before using Wally Byam in the name. Been trying for a while to get in touch with membership of Everglades Unit,to no avail.,sent application to top dogs,is anyone on here from Everglades Unit?? I`m
joining to stir the pot. Dave
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Old 08-30-2008, 03:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Wally Byam Camping Club. Do you see Airstream's name in there somewhere? If not, where's the trademark issue with Airstream?
A quick and dirty search of registered trademarks on the US Patent Office site United States Patent and Trademark Office Home Page shows that WBCC is a registered service mark of Webster Financial Corp. (filed 12/12/2006) but Wally Byam Camping Club returned no entries.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Wally Byam Camping Club. Do you see Airstream's name in there somewhere? If not, where's the trademark issue with Airstream?
Yes, but by making it Airstream specific, or even focusing on Airstream products in general, involves them by association

And yes, you would have to have the family's permission to use Wally's name. Dead or not, his name is not open to free use by any and everyone that so chooses.

There are lots more issues than getting insurance and determining the grievance process. And, the grievance process seems to be the heart of starting this new club. I'm not saying the time hasn't come for a 21st incarnation, but just make sure that the grievance issue isn't the sole reason for starting the club.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:25 PM   #37
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A quick and dirty search of registered trademarks on the US Patent Office site United States Patent and Trademark Office Home Page shows that WBCC is a registered service mark of Webster Financial Corp. (filed 12/12/2006) but Wally Byam Camping Club returned no entries.
Good homework. I note that both the name Wally Byam's Caravan Club (note the possessive) and the Wally Byam Caravan Club, International name and logo (the one that you stick above your numbers) are both active registered trademarks.

This means that absent the amicable divorce envisioned in my tongue-in-cheek proposal, a club could probably not call itself "Wally Byam Camping Club"--too close to WBCCI, and in the same field of business.

I don't think the name is too important, actually. You could call it the Silver Trailer Camping Club or something like that. And, I'm not so sure that Airstream would have anything against calling it the "Airstream Camping Club". They might like to have an alternative to the WBCCI. . .
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:31 PM   #38
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Yes, but by making it Airstream specific, or even focusing on Airstream products in general, involves them by association

And yes, you would have to have the family's permission to use Wally's name. Dead or not, his name is not open to free use by any and everyone that so chooses.
Are you an attorney or otherwise have expert knowledge of these matters, or are you just reciting "what everyone knows"?

I have no expert knowledge of the subject but I have reason to believe you're wrong on both counts.

And, to re-iterate an earlier conversation on this thread, I'm not sure you need a "club" at all, which obviates both issues.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:55 PM   #39
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Personally, I think the best reason for a "club" is to give it's members some liability protection for "club events". I'm happy to just show up to forums rally... but 100+ showed up at site for an event... and something bad happened... it can be amazing how fast personal liability insurance can get blown through.

If we never got together... no need to worry about bad things that can happen and no club needed. However, that defeats of camping and having fun together with other folks silly enought to buy a 30+ year old trailer and complete rebuild it.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:58 PM   #40
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Not a Treadmark issue

They can't chase anyone unless they build Airstream trailers and motorhomes.

It is the use of the word in commerce.

example the trademark office permits

see TESS -- Error

There are 86 uses of Airstream including.

AIRSTREAM WIRELESS

AIRSTREAM COMMUNICATIONS

MONITOR AUDIO AIRSTREAM

AIRSTREAM AUDIO

here's one using the term Airstream exactly.

Word Mark AIRSTREAM Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Laboratory equipment, namely, biological safety cabinets, safety cabinets for scientific purposes, fume cupboards for laboratory use, furniture adapted for laboratory use, laboratory centrifuges, electrical incubators for laboratory use, incubators for bacteria culture, incubators for laboratory use, instruments for nucleic acid polymerase chain reactions, protective garments for use in cleanrooms; weighing cabinets having protection and safety features for product, operator and environment for use in laboratories; ultralow temperature freezers for use in laboratories, carbon dioxide incubators for use in laboratories. FIRST USE: 20030100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20030100

When you're not using the term for the same goods or service you can use use.

I do know a lot, not all, but enough about trademark law.

I have litigated our companies TM over 10 times

You can IMO use Airstream Owners Club as an example.




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Old 08-30-2008, 04:59 PM   #41
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The best defense

I have the best defense plan against liability claims: near poverty. You would have to be one broke lawyer to come after me.
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Old 08-30-2008, 05:04 PM   #42
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not to be contentious but

Airstream HAS abandoned the WBCCI and is not showing up or supporting the International. Ha-hem. THINK

I hope that the WBCCI can gag down the notion that there is a generational shift and that they will have to choose to dive in or become extinct.

My "Modest Proposal" (nod to Jonathan Swift) is that the alternative rally REALLY happen and that WE invite Airstream Corporate. They've clearly been trying to send smoke signals to WBCCI... with little or no result. If they showed up at the alternate rally that would have to cause massive diarrhea at the IBT - from all those sticks being expelled simultaneously
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