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Old 07-26-2008, 10:24 PM   #29
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WBCCI not listening?

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Originally Posted by 65GT View Post
Could you tell me exactly which members of the IBT are not listening? I'd like to compare notes.

Definitely not a personal assault Jim, but until you've walked that mile...

The point is, that without being a member, you're painting with some pretty broad strokes here. I'm really not sure how a non-member, without at least having been a former member, can do that.

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65GT,

Hmmmm. I did not think that I was painting anything in broad strokes, but being quite specific.

And I agree that it is not personal. I would love to be a part of the rich history that the WBCCI has. Unfortunately I am not willing to contribute money to an organization that I as a member will have no control over.

Right you are about my being "an outsider". But, I do not think it takes a genius to look at the way the WBCCI is STRUCTURED to see that it was set up to concentrate contol at the top of the organization; those at the lower levels have an extremely difficult time getting anything done UNLESS the people at the top are WILLING to get involved.

I can read meeting minutes and committe reports and listen to the recordings of the meeting at the international this year; I have done that. I will bet that I am more informed about what is happeing in the WBCCI at this moment than the vast majority of members.

This is in no way a pat on my back or a slap at the members. I do homework before I commit money and my name and energy to anything. And, when I join an organization I plan on being involved. I have alwasy held office and contributed ASAP after joining.

How many years does it take for a WBCCI member to be elegiable to hold office at the highest level? Lots of time spent by people "obeying the rules", in my experience, leads to the rules never changing. It tends to come under the heading of, "I paid my dues; everyone else can too.".

The IBT is operating, by choice, with a budget that has been approved for the current fiscal year WITHOUT sufficient income/revenue to pay for the expenses that the approved budget calls for. This is NOT sound fiscal management.

The fact that the Units are required to provide $55.00 per member of the annual dues they charge to the IBT tells me that the IBT does not have to do anything other than count the money as it comes in; basically as long as there are members they get money.

All of this is directly related to the STRUCTURE of the club.

What is the incentive for a new Airstream owner such as ourselves to get involved with a group in such disarray?

I am posting on this site and others where allowed in hopes that the IBT "leaders" will get some feedback about new Airstream owners and the reasons why they are not interested/willing to be a part of the WBCCI.

I and the members who are working to get the attention of the WBCCI "leaders", are doing what I/we can to try and inject some semblance of reality into a very broad conversation that frankly no one at the top, IMNSHO, wants to hear.

I am surprised that the members of the WBCCI are not "up in arms" over the budget being approved. All of the other issues I have read about here and on the SaveWally site seem to be things that have been building for years; I can understand why.

People are frustrated and want to see change. I share their concerns and agree with almost everything that is being proposed. What I don't agree with is that change will happen in the WBCCI in a timely fashion.

And Carol.

Thanks for the offer of your paint brush! I am overjoyed to find that there are so many people who are willing to, "fight the good fight" to save their club. This speaks volumes and lots of people should be holding their heads up high as a result. I can only hope that they are successful in a time frame that will allow my wife and I to participate.

For everyone:

If ANYONE thinks that a non member who voices his opinion as to why he is NOT a member by joining the fray about declining membership, budgets, candidates for office, etc., etc., is inot entitled to speak, I would quote my long passed auntie, "Just pull up your big girl panties and deal with it".

My comments here and elsewhere on this site and others in no way are intended to do anything but provide information for those at the top in hope that they may better understand why people are NOT willing to become part of the WBCCI.

Jim

PS: The smelling pistakes are all my own.
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:37 PM   #30
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With the recent vote by the IBT to tax MALs for $5 more than unit members, sounds like MALs need to take action on their own. I seem to recall a movement in Boston the took on Taxation without Representation. They wound up holding "high tea".

So if the MALs joined WDCU for $1 instead of sending 5 more to Jackson Center...I don't know if there are other $1 units but they work too...the newly created MAL vote could make quite a bit of noise. They would also save a little money.

Don't misunderstand. I agree with 65GT. Things are changing and and there is significant support for change at the Region level. Don't mistake silence for indifference. Picking the time and the issue is very important. If you want change, go get more folks involved. Take every opportunity for constructive input; just keep it constructive if you want them to listen.

My thoughts.

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Old 07-26-2008, 11:50 PM   #31
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I would think that that is the exact response the IBT is courting... to dissolve MALs (who seem to be deemed problematic as a whole, which is curious in itself.) Charging 5 dollars more for retention of the chosen club approved status and being tempted by only paying 56 dollars instead of 75 or 80 dollars might end MAL status and their large numbers and cause the MALs to join a unit.

But I want to be a MAL and I want the right to vote as a member should be entitled to. What is the deal worrying about MALs, what makes MALs a problem or a threat? The fact that pomp and ceremony has no appeal, no officers, no flags, no delegates, no future followers for that what is it 13 year march up, no extra rules and restrictions or leverage to be led or bound by??? Do they encroach upon units, regions, and international hierarchy by not needing it or buying into that whole scene? Take a pass on all that invented obligation...

MALs have friends, fun and do camp and rally too. But I don't think we do luncheons, I mean we do go eat lunch...you know what I mean
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:02 AM   #32
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eubank - Lynn - is right, we need to work on recommendations to the 2020 committee. They need to get most of this threads input directly.

They obviously have a major job ahead of them to prove to the membership that they can actually get things done that are of actual value and will generate membership retention and growth. If the 2020 committee posted their meeting minutes on the WBCCI Forums that would go a long way toward addressing the members concerns about what is happening. There is certainly no reason for these minutes to be held in confidence that I can see. This would also allow the membership to see when recommendation has been made to the individuals who make up the IBT and who the roadblocks actually are. In that way if an IBT member is actually not following the mandate that their unit has requested they can be held accountable by them.

The club has lots of issues and they need to be addressed. As 2air' points out other clubs have also hit the wall and figured out what it takes to turn things around. I was not aware of this and I suspect many others are not as well but there has to be a lot of value in sharing that information about the lessons learned with the 2020 group with a request that they provide feedback on whether any of these actions are being considered in their project. Lynn - I take it this is the kind of information you are looking for?

The WBCCI is a great club and the history is great, but it has to evolve in the same way that the Airstream manufacturer has had to to stay relevant to the next generation of customers. If you are a WBCCI member hop over to that forum and copy your post from here to there so they get the real information. This is a wonderful place to vet our thoughts but in the end it is over "there" that the information is going to be read by the folks trying to get this done.

It takes passion and commitment to effect change (and the cost of a membership). I see the passion in most of these posts and certainly there is a level of commitment to get it done, what we need now is to overwhelm the 2020 committee with what the masses expect from the committee and the WBCCI as a club. Anything less and we'll all be looking to join one of those clubs that managed to turn things around.

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Old 07-27-2008, 02:23 AM   #33
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Paint your own picture.

Hi, I'm not a very good painter; Maybe, because I'm, also, not allowed to paint [lack of experience] because I don't belong to the painters club. So maybe, if some of you in this exclusive painter's club would paint a prettier picture useing some new brush strokes instead painting like androids, outsiders will want to follow and join. From the outside, I see many painters, on the inside, that know what the problems are. But it seems to me that the airplane that they are painting isn't going to be rebuilt or replaced until it crashes. After that, maybe, I and many others will want to join the exclusive painters club.
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:04 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safari57 View Post
...
Lynn - I take it this is the kind of information you are looking for?
Yep.

My take on it is pretty simple: If you look at the 2020 report, it contains a relatively small number of mostly relatively broad and non-specific suggestions along with surprisingly lengthy verbage about the intent of the commitee, namely, that the recommendations not simply be swept under the rug.

My main goal follows that of the committee: The recommendations for change are fairly straightforward and pretty much known to everybody; the goal is to see to it that change is enacted.


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Old 07-27-2008, 11:15 AM   #35
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OK I got some, picture...

1M1V for all to be submitted outside of rallies and luncheons entered into a database along with your membership status and info. Voting and motion information should all be clearly presented in the Blue Beret and the coupon pages ommitted for space for club content. The traditional meetings are all done deals and not much hashing as procedure going on and on and on anyway. Reading about all sides of issues will get the news and business out quickly to all and have more meat in it than the anemic mass seatings and drone of roll calls. Should traditional meetings ensue electronic voting would expedict matters.

For Internationals

How about an enclosed exercise area for pets in the pet section and leaving the waste bins UNTIL the end of the rally and not removing them 2 days early as they did at Salem and Bozeman.

More shifts of parking, daily and nightly and not knocking off at 4 and on weekends.

Utilize grounds with hook-ups and let member's fees reflect services they themselves are using and not padding the bill to include the weeks of volunteers to install the services. At nearly a hundred dollars a night at Bozeman was too much for too little. Don't charge 60 dollars for every child. Membership benefits should reflect a savings and value and not float the extra curricular activities of the "International club" set.

Entertainment and activities should skip knitting and prostate exams and comics with vaudville sticks for the aged.

And get a coffee and refreshment vender in there for goodness sake, am I the only one looking for coffee and a sweet roll?

Get those pictures and testamonials of sky med out of the blue beret! Stop showing picture after picture of older members holding awards, dressed in uniforms and group shots of faces and start adding action pictures of people having fun and an active lifestyle. Allow some controversy in the magazine, put some interesting columns and readers comments and questions in there that haven't been sifted through to resemble pablum. What gets ratings up today, where do you check first for news and entertainment? Surely not the BB. It looks like a pamplet for a retirement home.
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:04 PM   #36
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The mal debacle

When we bought our Airstream several years ago, we decided that we would join the Airstream Club (WBCCI). We found the Club's website and called their headquarters in Jackson Center. We were told to contact our nearest unit to see about joining. The nearest unit to our home is 100 miles away. We sent several emails to this unit and never received any response. We again called WBCCI in Ohio, and were told that we could join the club as a member-at-large (MAL) if we really wanted to. We didn't realize at the time that a MAL was a dispised second class citizen that had tp pay extra dues for not being willing to associate with one of the many crafting and quilting units of the club. We joined as MALs.

We then found these Forums, and became aware that we were MAL nogoodnicks in the eyes of WBCCI. We are bacically not joiners or congregators, so we initially stayed away from rallies. We did finally attend a couple of Forums rallies, and we pleased with the lack of structure. We met many nice and helpful Airstreamers. We finally decided to try a WBCCI unit rally. What a snoozer! They were very nice people, but most wanted to discuss crafting, quilting, and their grandchildren. We want to hear about camping and Airstream adventures.

Last year we joined the new Four Corners Unit (2000 miles from home) so that we could have a vote in the MOHO issue. I then realized that my overall dues were substantially less by belong to this unit. What a stupid way to run an outfit. MAL dues should be a flat $55, and MALS should be able to cast a vote Club issues.

I feel that WBCCI is acting against its own interest in maintaining their stupid policies regarding members-at-large. There are many new Airstream owners, both young and old, who would like to join WBCCI but don't want to be part of some unit that happens to be geographically close to their home.

WBCCI needs to awaken from their self-induced deep sleep and look around at today's Airstream world. If they would do the right thing on the MAL issue, they might find that membership would actually increase.

Brian
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
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MALs are being targeted because that category has the highest turnover. The biggest non-renewal rate. People join as MALs, most don't get anything out of the club, and they don't renew. The belief is that if you join a unit you're more likely to have a better WBCCI experience. ...
Yeah, I also heard complaining about the MAL issue from some unit-connected WBCCI folks staying with us after Bozeman. I really didn't catch the specifics of their complaints other than to note that they weren't happy, either.

But I think the committee pretty much got it right. They want a survey conducted:
Quote:
Surveys will be conducted of MALs and new Airstream owners, the greatest potential for membership gains through retention improvement and new members.. The MAL survey will focus on learning why Airstream owners want to be Members At Large and what would make them feel more of a part of WBCCI to improve the retention rate. The goal of the new member survey will be to find out why WBCCI isn’t successful in attracting them to club membership in significant numbers.
So I guess this is intended as a follow-up to the main report. The IBT is essentially charged by the committee with setting up the survey, perhaps conducted by the current 2020 Committee or maybe by somebody else. (I'd hope the current commmittee would take this one; my opinion is that they've done an admirable job so far.)


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Old 07-28-2008, 09:18 AM   #38
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I should add (now that the WBCCI site seems to be available again, at least for now) that the individual survey results that the 2020 Committee used to formulate the report are available on the site and make for interesting reading.

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Old 07-28-2008, 08:24 PM   #39
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Different structure for other organizations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65GT View Post

<SNIP>

Honestly -- truthfully -- the MAL category never should have been allowed in the first place and if they did away with it tomorrow, if they merely assigned every MAL to a unit, you wouldn't see so much as a blip on the membership screen because most MALs would just accept being assigned to a unit.

I don't belong to another social or professional organization that doesn't put every peg into a hole. You're chartered nationally, regionally, and by unit (chapter, whatever).

When you join, you're assigned to a chapter, period. If you want to switch to another unit (chapter), no problem, but every member belongs to a unit (chapter). Whether the member wants to participate with the unit (chapter) is their business. Do or don't, end of story. No skin off anyone's knuckles, because that's the way it is, and EVERYONE gets an ELECTRONIC vote on bylaws changes and international elections.

<SNIP>

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65GT,

I belong to several organizations that encompass members in North America (Canada, USA and Mexico).

There is no requirement to belong to any "unit" of these organizations. The following is an example.

There are more than 300 chartered clubs that are effectively "units" of this organization. Membership in these clubs is completely separate from the national organization. Each club had to have a minimum of 10 members of the National organization to become a charted club. They have to have a minimum of five members to retain their charter. The charter costs each club $10.00 a year. One of the benefits of being a chartered club is insurance for club rallies. Another is announcements for the rallies getting much broader coverage as it is printed in the monthly magazine the national organization sends out. This magazine is on a comparable level with the FMCA publication for quality and appearance; color glossy, etc. and equals it in size.

The National Orgainization costst $32.00 a year per member. They own a building in MO for the headquarters and have 3 full time staffers. The annual rally that the national organization runs pays for just about everything and that is why the dues are not very high.

The charter clubs operate as separate independent entities. The clubs have no say in the national organizations business and the national organization has no say in the clubs business. Anyone can be a member of the national organization; the purpose of the organization is to promote the national organization. It is a Mutual Benefit non-profit corporation under California Law (the founders were in CA 35 years ago when it was established). The clubs have their own bylaws and do as they please.

I respect and appreciate your information but there are other ways for social organizations to be structured and operate. Having been involved with organizations that do not have the overhead (interpret that to be structure) that the WBCCI does I had to post my initial thoughts to this thread and now, post this response to you.

One member, one vote. The board is elected by the membership. Anyone can nominate anyone for office, including themselves. The only money any board member gets is for out of pocket expenses and they are scrutinized very closely. Everyone pays the entry fee to the rally; board members and workers alike. The objective is that your are a board member to contribute, not get even. The same for the volunteers.

Any rate, I hope this helps anyone who reads this understand why I believe that there is better way for a social organization like the WBCCI to be structured.

Oh, did I mention that membership in this organization is GROWING? There are about 40,000 members and 7,000 of them showed up at the national rally this past month.

Jim, who is off to the WBCCI site to read more about the 2020 info mentioned above.
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Old 07-28-2008, 09:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Honestly -- truthfully -- the MAL category never should have been allowed in the first place and if they did away with it tomorrow, if they merely assigned every MAL to a unit, you wouldn't see so much as a blip on the membership screen because most MALs would just accept being assigned to a unit.

Why should this be complicated. Even the MALs b@#%@ about being MALs. You get what you signed up for. You sign up for a category where you have no say, well, that's exactly what you did. You expect the category of the membership that does have a say to make changes for you, well, you see where that is going, DON'T you?

You're paying ~$19 (about to be $24) a year more for your membership instead of joining any of the $1 a year units. Could the writing on the wall be any clearer?

Feeling guilty? A sense of civic duty to a unit? Join one that's 3K miles away to relieve your guilt.

The club could END the SMALL controversial topic, one that simply rears its ugly head every couple of months, if they'd just do away with the category. It's got my vote!

__
AARRGGHH!!!! Whoa son! Step back and see the bigger picture. You are talking about voluntarily ending a status for members of whom you have no affinity and who have no voice of their own; instead of helping and using your vote to win it for them, i.e. equality for all members instead of forcing compliance because you think that's for the best. And even though its in the constitution you believe it is there mistakenly. Do not lightly bander about talk of ending present membership rights for others because they do not suit or include you. Isn't that precisely the problem you are experiencing now from some of the current leadership towards your members' rights and they acting upon their own personal agendas regardless of the impact to others?

You don't have a say and you rejoin the WBCCI in hopes of working towards a voice in the IBT. Why not MALs? We are up against the very same thing you are up against, no proper representation and being endangered of being stonewalled.

If I were you I would concentrate on expanding rights and not removing the ones that are by your own admonition no skin off your teeth. EWWE I hate the sound of that talk, so much the same chant but with different groups and different issues...

And don't flash money before MALs eyes to think that holds appeal. What, do you think we need to fund our pricy club functions? We pay our way and want our vote. Period. You can't buy people off their membership status with a few dollars. Hey what about integrity all across the board for all levels in this club of OURS! Do us the courtesy that you would like extended towards yourself and allow us to choose for ourselves the direction we would take.
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Old 07-28-2008, 09:51 PM   #41
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Look, we can't undo history: The MAL category was created, and there are lots of folks who enjoy membership in that category. So be it.

There is, apparently, quite a bit of turnover in the MAL category, however. People join, and an unusually large number of them don't continue. There may be lots of reasons for this, and perhaps 1M1V would resolve part of it for some MAL members.

But surely that's not the whole of the story. There are some who initially join as MAL simply because they don't know which unit to belong to. And, indeed, it is difficult. Just joining the most local unit can be a mistake, as lots of folks have discovered to their dismay.

So an additional angle that might be pursued is to match MALs to appropriate units for those MAL members who would like to belong to a unit. (I have the feeling, though, that pursuing this angle will not be an easy one at the administrative level. Probably the best would be to send those MALs to AirForums so that they can simply explain what they're interests are and ask about.)


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Old 07-28-2008, 09:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
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I should add (now that the WBCCI site seems to be available again, at least for now) that the individual survey results that the 2020 Committee used to formulate the report are available on the site and make for interesting reading.

Lynn
Hi Lynn,

I agree with you; the surveys that I could get to made interesting reading. Unfortunately there were several links to non existing pages.

I always find surveys of this nature of interest. At one point in my life I was involved with market research. Constructing a survey that can yield information that can be used effectively is no easy task.

While there was a lot of interesting information in the responses I am not sure what the committee will be able to do with the information. When you have an organization as large as the WBCCI and you have responses that tally in the single digits there really isn't much that can be gleaned from it.

It is very hard to collate information from responses that are open ended; anyone can write anything. I appreciate the committees' efforts and understand that theirs is no easy task. I wish them well in their quest to help move the club in a direction that will satisfy the majority of the members.

Jim
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