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Old 01-30-2011, 09:31 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by InsideOut View Post
In this new "whatever", does "one member one vote" allow for absentee or mail-in voting or is it a "must be present to vote" type arrangement on the International level?

Shari
Won't have all the final details for a while but it appears that the delegate system would go and there would be internet/mail voting. Not have to be at a meeting.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:34 AM   #282
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Who are the nominees for 3IVP, Treasurer, Secretary and nominating committee? Opinions, if any?

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Old 01-30-2011, 10:30 AM   #283
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The only thing with 1M1V is if you look at the % of people that vote in elections Local, State, Federal it is very low (I think around 37-56% depending on the year, but don't hold me to that) Plus, how will it be done? Online? Mail in only? Must be at the meeting? Depending on how it all goes down, this could give the IBT even more power than less to sway things in their way.

Be very careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:32 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post

During the IBT on Friday there were questions about this process which is in Sec. 1 on Amendments.

The Constitution and Bylaws Standing Committee Chairman Don S. said that he would get the report to Headquarters as soon as he is back in Florida.

Is this understood or accepted ?

Sec. 1 has never been used to amend the Constitution.

It is a slow lengthy process.

But as you said it may all be a moot point (except the way it was handled) if the New Constitution is accepted there are no longer any delegates, each member gets a vote directly.

One member one vote.....hello!!

We feel its a better mouse trap.

flame on
I need someone to help me out here. I distinctly remember Don Shaffer trying to eliminate the section one process in times prior to this. I am suspect of his stated rationale however, both then and now. I believe the intent of that section is to allow for the general membership to pass changes circumventing the approval of the IBT. Don is shrewd and he knows what he is doing. DON'T LET GO OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE FOR THE ILLUSION OF SOMETHING BETTER! You would be playing right into his hands.

IMIV can be decided at unit level and the MALs can become an online unit. Don't make these kind of deals they are stacked against you. You will only be able to vote on what the IBT allows you to vote upon. No delegates, geesch what are you thinking!!?

The Constitution Revision Committee is a committee for the Executive Committee. The EC created it and will also decide what they will allow to go forward. The EC chose a representative of Save and Defend Wally,(actually two were candidates) to have a seat on the committee and then the lawsuit was withdrawn, and also Leo's expulsion never to be further addressed and Save Wally and Defend Wally and all the forums went belly up in rapid succession. The IP negotiated with Dan Neumarkel and the region presidents to withdraw his motion and guaranteed upon his word that Forrest's amendment would then go forward without delay or having to start the process over. Don Shaffer openly, and no doubt privately, opposed that from happening.

Don Shaffer has been interpretting and advising the International President on procedure more than the parlimentarian, we heard that evidenced on the simulcast so we know that for a fact. We also know immediately after the tabulation of the moho issue vote against, IP Don Shaffer spoke audibly on the recording that "they think they have won, but its not over." Is anyone suprised to learn that Don Shaffer has an agenda?

And yet many are falling trap to the allure and offer of a glittering new constitution that takes away delegates, their meetings, the section one process of getting motions approved and changes made by order of the the general membership only and thereby bypassing the IBT's interference and control, and negates Forrest's amendment and the vast support of membership that he has...an amendment, I might add that is designed to give the membership more control and you are even seriously considering it.

All of a sudden the EC has made a complete about turn and is now offering membership a way to get their future initatives furthered without their very own approval? I don't think so. The EC could blink and make any number of positive changes from the 2020 committee or the revision committee if it in fact wanted to. What part of this year's drama and this past meeting's drama instills such confidence in you that you believe that leadership only wants what is best for you the member and and there is no dupicity going on now, (says the wolf in sheep's clothing.) You have witnessed these very things for yourself and now you are jumping up and down crying "Yipee!" because they offer you 1M1V which your unit president and unit constitution can give you, in exchange for giving up your representative delegates and accepting their approved new constitution? Do you ever learn? You are putting all your faith in Bob, Don and Norm because they are telling you to believe it? Don't be too hasty in that, I implore you to be cautious and think things out for yourselves. You have seen the reversals and broken agreements. Personally I think you are fooling yourselves to be looking for a gift from the very same set of individuals. If it looks too good to be true it probably is!
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:38 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
Depending on how it all goes down, this could give the IBT even more power than less to sway things in their way.
That was my concern...

Shari
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:50 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by InsideOut View Post
That was my concern...

Shari
Ok, even in advance of seeing the new document, maybe we can ask another question: Who is empowered by the new constitution to make proposals placed before members for the 1m1v process? How does it work.

I realize that we need to see the document itself to make any determination. The devil's in the details.

In any event, what the future holds is either the new constitution or the old one (with by-laws). So let's play with scenarios:

1. We get the new constitution, like it, and vote it in.

2. We get the new constitution, dislike it, and try to amend. This will almost inevitably wind up taking much longer than the six months or so before the next major meeting. Meanwhile, we have the old constitution and by-laws.

3. We get the new constitution, dislike it, and vote against. We wind up with the old constitution and by-laws.

Two out of three suggest that we keep the old constitution and by-laws, at least for a year or so.

In light of this possibility, my suggestion is that Region 11 get on the stick and push forward with Forrest's amendment. Do whatever it takes, maybe even re-vote at the unit level.



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Old 01-30-2011, 11:16 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
The only thing with 1M1V is if you look at the % of people that vote in elections Local, State, Federal it is very low (I think around 37-56% depending on the year, but don't hold me to that) Plus, how will it be done? Online? Mail in only? Must be at the meeting? Depending on how it all goes down, this could give the IBT even more power than less to sway things in their way.

Be very careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Don't know the details, but the FMCA has a mail voting system that seems to work, or so some member friends tell me.
I would like to see a system of Internet and mail voting, along with all the thing to be voted on distributed both ways

As far as I can see in my own region, anything that is supposed to come down the "chain of command" never gets to the members
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:24 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideOut View Post

In this new "whatever", does "one member one vote" allow for absentee or mail-in voting or is it a "must be present to vote" type arrangement on the International level?

Shari

No need to be present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickDavis View Post
Won't have all the final details for a while but it appears that the delegate system would go and there would be internet/mail voting. Not have to be at a meeting.
correct

Quote:
Originally Posted by rideair View Post
The only thing with 1M1V is if you look at the % of people that vote in elections Local, State, Federal it is very low (I think around 37-56% depending on the year, but don't hold me to that) Plus, how will it be done? Online? Mail in only? Must be at the meeting? Depending on how it all goes down, this could give the IBT even more power than less to sway things in their way.
First it will be a much smaller IBT, no reason they would have more power I believe they will have less, the members will have more!

Second you can only lead a horse to water.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wheel interested View Post
I need someone to help me out here. I distinctly remember Don Shaffer trying to eliminate the section one process in times prior to this. I am suspect of his stated rationale however, both then and now. I believe the intent of that section is to allow for the general membership to pass changes circumventing the approval of the IBT. Don is shrewd and he knows what he is doing. DON'T LET GO OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE FOR THE ILLUSION OF SOMETHING BETTER! You would be playing right into his hands.
I disagree, and until you read the doc, please stop assuming

Quote:
IMIV can be decided at unit level and the MALs can become an online unit. Don't make these kind of deals they are stacked against you. You will only be able to vote on what the IBT allows you to vote upon. No delegates, geesch what are you thinking!!?
That is is incorrect, wait and see.

Quote:
The Constitution Revision Committee is a committee for the Executive Committee. The EC created it and will also decide what they will allow to go forward. The EC chose a representative of Save and Defend Wally,(actually two were candidates)
The EC had absolutely NO say in what was drafted, none.
They accepted what was presented asking for 3 minor changes in agreement with our Committee last week.


Quote:
Don Shaffer has been interpretting and advising the International President on procedure more than the parlimentarian, we heard that evidenced on the simulcast so we know that for a fact.
?????

Quote:
And yet many are falling trap to the allure and offer of a glittering new constitution that takes away delegates, their meetings, the section one process of getting motions approved and changes made by order of the the general membership only and thereby bypassing the IBT's interference and control, and negates Forrest's amendment and the vast support of membership that he has...an amendment, I might add that is designed to give the membership more control and you are even seriously considering it.
Yes you should, but Carol for you to knock it before it's published is totally unfair when you were one of the most vocal demanding change.

Quote:
now you are jumping up and down crying "Yipee!" because they offer you 1M1V which your unit president and unit constitution can give you, in exchange for giving up your representative delegates and accepting their approved new constitution?
First do you know how many delegates really show up out of the 100+
So certain units have little say.

Now with a absentee vote........
You will have more say and representation than ever in this club, this is not a jump it's a leap.

Quote:
If it looks too good to be true it probably is!
That's the problem Carol you ain't even looked at!!!

Please just take break form you dissenting remarks and give it time to be published.



.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:33 AM   #289
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2. We get the new constitution, dislike it, and try to amend.


Lynn, the way it works is this.

Each Article, starting with the current Code of Ethics, will be discussed and amendments from the Delegates processed.

A Standing Rule of Order for this meeting of a time limit on discussion for each Article,
typically 20 minutes.

Each proposed amendment to an Article will be voted on.

After all the Articles are voted on, then the final vote, which will be a roll call vote, will be taken on the proposed Revision as amended.

Assuming the 2/3 required for adoption is obtained, the proposed Revision becomes the Constitution immediately.



.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:41 AM   #290
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How can you vote on something that is not offered up to you to vote upon? And when it is you can vote yes no or abstain. Surely the individual's single vote is not as powerful a position as to be able to draft approve and be recognized as a deliberative body. I see it as removing delegates position as removing checks and balances and the opportunity to be our own representatives.

What were the three minor changes the EC asked the committee to make?

I don't know that my voice is dissenting I think my voice is discerning.And just like you and everyone else we are all anxious to know more and are processing the little that was made available.

When are the details to be made available? Through e-mail constant contact? As you have said often information does not come down through the ranks in timely manner if at all.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:17 PM   #291
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:18 PM   #292
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"Each Article, starting with the current Code of Ethics, will be discussed and amendments from the Delegates processed."

And there's the danger in this whole thing, Bob. This year, WBCCI Unit's will be sending a delegate to vote on something that will be one thing when it is presented to them in the next few days, but could be something "very" different by the time "amendments" are made to each Article on the floor of the delegates meeting. Based on history, the IBT is known to stack the deck in their favor during this process. Remember changing the club name at that delegates meeting, etc... The only reason why the MOHO delegates meeting went as well as it did was because SaveWally got the word out and most units signed on to the "if one word was changed, it was an automatic "NO".

You could end up (and will) with something that is different (to what level we don't know) than what is present to the general membership to vote on in the Spring.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:35 PM   #293
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All units need to authorize their delegate to vote in accordance with their best interests. Solicit their opinions in your business meeting and arrive in Du Quion with latitude.

I will ask my unit for that.

A vote of Abstain on Nominees got attention last year. Speak up.
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Old 01-30-2011, 12:36 PM   #294
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I understand exactly what you're saying for a change

Each unit/delegate should ask that they be permitted to have latitude in that regard.

I recall some did and some did not.

Another flaw in the old system.
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