1M1V vs. Delegate doctrine

[rideair]

"What about the MEMBER caucus with streaming for all to see and listen?"

Bob,

Will this be done via Unicast or Multicast video/voice? Who will make that decision and pay the cost?

Do you understand the cost to setup a temporary service like this for up to 6000 users which may or maynot be able to be done based on the location of the meeting?

[mbmbstreamer]

I like your Summary. I like the ideas optimism. In practice, however, it falls short.

Our delegate and his predecessors are typically the only members who follow International and Region politics. More than one has returned from International with a whole new perspective, interest, and frustration.

In our business meeting, that delegate asks for direction. Since he knows for several years in advance that he will be called upon, he normally is better informed than most. On that basis, we expect him to represent us but accept any new information he gathers before and during the Delegate Meeting.

About 15 to 20 percent of our members get involved at the 2 Business Meetings. The Delegate gets informed and goes to International. Few others attend the current delegate sessions. Votes are cast by the well informed, based on the input they receive.

The alternative, we would have the same 15 to 20 percent involved. Fewer would attend the member caucus. Very few listen to the Mid-winter or Delegate streaming and that wouldn't likely change. So our votes would be cast by the 20 percent who become informed and the unknown number of in-informed. No options once the ballots go out. Simply an up or down vote.

Our membership is uncomfortable with votes by the in-informed, with only the International recommendation as a guide.

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

The alternative, we would have the same 15 to 20 percent involved. Fewer would attend the member caucus. Very few listen to the Mid-winter or Delegate streaming and that wouldn't likely change. So our votes would be cast by the 20 percent who become informed and the unknown number of in-informed. No options once the ballots go out.

But you really don't know for sure that fewer would attend!
The reason is because the members have never been allowed in.

If there are 600+- members attending the International how many will attend? I guess half (that also depends on what the subject of the vote is) if it was the addition of SOB motor homes I guess all 600 would show up

As far as watching a stream v hearing a boring audio I think (with a picture worth a thousand words) more would participate, be mindful that they could replay it at any time or record exerts out for further debate before voting.

Our membership is uncomfortable with votes by the in-informed, with only the International recommendation as a guide.

Not sure what you mean there? they want them excluded, I doubt that.

They are entitled to a vote.

Also, not sure what International recommendation as a guide means.

Matt as one of the largest units in the club with over 300 members I believe is that correct?

Question, when your delegate casts his vote with 20% voting or 60 member votes how are the other 240 votes cast?


.

[wkerfoot]

Bob,

Members have never been allowed in?? To what, I attended the delegates meeting in Bozeman as a spectator. What are members not allowed into?

As far as the members not voting, I assume that it is like most units, non votes are not counted and the voting members are grossed up to the voting strength of the unit. ie, if a unit has 300 votes and only 20 members vote, one half for and one half against, the votes at the delegates meeting are cast 150 for and 150 against. Isn't that the current procedure?

Bill

Originally Posted by LI Pets

But you really don't know for sure that fewer would attend!
The reason is because the members have never been allowed in.

If there are 600+- members attending the International how many will attend? I guess half (that also depends on what the subject of the vote is) if it was the addition of SOB motor homes I guess all 600 would show up

As far as watching a stream v hearing a boring audio I think (with a picture worth a thousand words) more would participate, be mindful that they could replay it at any time or record exerts out for further debate before voting.



Not sure what you mean there? they want them excluded, I doubt that.

They are entitled to a vote.

Also, not sure what International recommendation as a guide means.

Matt as one of the largest units in the club with over 300 members I believe is that correct?

Question, when your delegate casts his vote with 20% voting or 60 member votes how are the other 240 votes cast?


.

[mbmbstreamer]

1. The in-informed are those who could vote from home and never attend a meeting or become involved in unit events. My unit would accept MAL votes from home, but doesn't want it for unit votes.

2. The "International Recommendation" is the information we receive in the Blue Beret or by mail from Jackson Center. Better information is gathered at Unit Rallies and meetings. Discussion with others forms a more reasoned opinion.

3. Currently, those voting at our Business Meeting determine how our unit votes will be cast. Whether the 320+ are split or unanimous is also up to those in the business meeting. By the way, we seldom have a split vote in our meetings, except when more than a single candidate is put for a vote. Then, we split it proportionally.

4. All our members have the chance to participate, but they must choose to attend the meeting. The delegate votes as the unit (those present) direct him.

[mbmbstreamer]

Make that "The UN-informed" in item 1.

[mbmbstreamer]

One more point. I have attended every Delegates Seminar and Delegates Meeting since joining. You are required to wear your badge and are absolutely welcome to attend.

[wheel interested]

I have attended a few as well. You need not even be attending the International Rally or the Mid Winter IBT, all business meetings are open to all WBCCI members free of charge.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

4. All our members have the chance to participate, but they must choose to attend the meeting. The delegate votes as the unit (those present) direct him.

All your members have a chance to attend. But only 20% may show and those may be the insiders.

You want me to believe this is a representative system when compared to the ability to discuss remotely before the fact and vote from home.

Yes 1m1v will not greatly increase the total numbers that will vote but it clearly gives those who want to vote that ability. Distance, time conflicts with work, cost of travel, and family obligations will no longer limits a members access to the governance of his Unit or Club.

Georgia is not the largest geographical area in the WBCCI and you still only get a 20% turn out. Think of Region 10 and the hardship that voting at a rally or meeting presents to those members. They may have to travel more to one meeting to vote than you may travel in a year.

WDCU unit has been conducting the units business via the internet for years. WDCU has members across the country. There is an online group site for discussion and dissemination of information that notifies members when anything has been posted to that site. While they have not yet conducted voting via the net that will be small and easy step to take.

It is time to think beyond what we did yesterday. Think of the things that have changed in your lifetime and those that did not change in time that are no longer around in their original strength like Kodak, Xerox, and drive in theaters.

Should the WBCCI follow such examples into obscurity.


.

[rideair]

Howie stated:

"WDCU unit has been conducting the units business via the internet for years. WDCU has members across the country. There is an online group site for discussion and dissemination of information that notifies members when anything has been posted to that site. While they have not yet conducted voting via the net that will be small and easy step to take."


Howie,

I hate to correct you one more time, but that is misinformation. The WDCU has been conducting it's voting via the internet for sometime. For most WDCU Prez's, it was the main way to cast your vote (via email), though you could vote via carrier pigeon, snail-mail, slow boat to China, at the biz meeting, etc... however you could get your vote into the Prez, a WDCU Prez would take it.

Even after asking to vote anyway you like, we could get only about 30-35% of the membership to vote and that was after giving them up to the last date possible (June 1st) and sending many emails requesting they send in their vote.

From their, we took the votes and did proportional voting and did straight up/down votes. Anything changed, all votes went to "no". To my knowledge, every WDCU Prez has respected that method, though I would not bet my life on it. We had a couple of years where the WDCU Prez was missing in action and the 1stVP would do their best to make sure it happened.

[wkerfoot]

HowieE,

I thought that a member was required to attend the caucus in order to participate, am I wrong?

Bill

Originally Posted by HowieE

All your members have a chance to attend. But only 20% may show and those may be the insiders.

You want me to believe this is a representative system when compared to the ability to discuss remotely before the fact and vote from home.

Yes 1m1v will not greatly increase the total numbers that will vote but it clearly gives those who want to vote that ability. Distance, time conflicts with work, cost of travel, and family obligations will no longer limits a members access to the governance of his Unit or Club.

Georgia is not the largest geographical area in the WBCCI and you still only get a 20% turn out. Think of Region 10 and the hardship that voting at a rally or meeting presents to those members. They may have to travel more to one meeting to vote than you may travel in a year.

WDCU unit has been conducting the units business via the internet for years. WDCU has members across the country. There is an online group site for discussion and dissemination of information that notifies members when anything has been posted to that site. While they have not yet conducted voting via the net that will be small and easy step to take.

It is time to think beyond what we did yesterday. Think of the things that have changed in your lifetime and those that did not change in time that are no longer around in their original strength like Kodak, Xerox, and drive in theaters.

Should the WBCCI follow such examples into obscurity.


.

[HowieE]

Bill

I said nothing about the caucus system and I do not have an answer to your question.

Paul

Thanks for bringing the point home that voting by other than attending does and may in the future result in a large participation. The year you were President I do remember voting at the Cherry Blossom Rally. In the years since I do not remember voting at all. I may be part of the 65%. My comment is based on the fact that I do not remember ever voting via the internet. That may be my oversight or that I would not vote for a SLATE and thus it is not in my memory.

The point is you have demonstrated that it works and with additional avenues of marketing, the BB and a concerted effort from Jackson Center, it should produce even better results. Not sure it is clear to all but the International is becoming less and less attended each year. Some unit will not even send a Delegate this year and most likely less will send one next year.

I trust your comment that any change in a motion made after the Delegate had received their charge from the unit was a defensive position to overcome the manipulations so often used by the IBT. If the Club was to vote on any item as published such maneuvers would have to be before publication and evident to all allowing an informed vote.

Will the last Delegate please turn out the lights?




.

[mbmbstreamer]

I have no issue with units allowing mail-in or electronic voting to conduct their unit business or to instruct their delegate. I would recommend the electronic or mail-in follow any discussions or changes at the business meeting, so the "remote" voters have the same opportunities as those attending. That would require additional communication. We could certainly do that.

I would NOT recommend that method for the International for three reasons.

First, the voice of the delegates, though not often heard, is louder than remote participation.

Second, those not participating in a discussion (electronic or in person) are going to make their decision based only on what they have received and read. Normally that is the information in the Blue Beret. It tends to present one side only.

Third, most of our members would rather spend their Airstream time having FUN rather than worrying about politics. They elect a representative and would prefer HE do the work and spend HIS time getting educated.

Remember, I am not voting my opinion in DuQuoin. I am voting according to the feedback from my unit. Of course, that feedback can only come from those who have provided it to me. Under our current system, I didn't send out a questionnaire.

One more point. International attendance is shrinking. If you eliminate the Delegate Meeting, it will result in lower attendance. Some units have only their Delegate and Alternate there, because it is their duty to attend. Eliminate that responsibility and you reduce attendance further.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

I like your Summary. I like the ideas optimism. In practice, however, it falls short.

Our delegate and his predecessors are typically the only members who follow International and Region politics. More than one has returned from International with a whole new perspective, interest, and frustration.

In our business meeting, that delegate asks for direction. Since he knows for several years in advance that he will be called upon, he normally is better informed than most. On that basis, we expect him to represent us but accept any new information he gathers before and during the Delegate Meeting.

About 15 to 20 percent of our members get involved at the 2 Business Meetings. The Delegate gets informed and goes to International. Few others attend the current delegate sessions. Votes are cast by the well informed, based on the input they receive.

The alternative, we would have the same 15 to 20 percent involved. Fewer would attend the member caucus. Very few listen to the Mid-winter or Delegate streaming and that wouldn't likely change. So our votes would be cast by the 20 percent who become informed and the unknown number of in-informed. No options once the ballots go out. Simply an up or down vote.

Our membership is uncomfortable with votes by the in-informed, with only the International recommendation as a guide.

Matt,

Not looking for an argument here, just want to understand your position. I am getting the impression from your recent posts that you intend to vote against adoption of the proposed revised constitution unless the provision to do away with the Delegates Meeting is eliminated at this year's Delegates Meeting.

In earlier posts you said,

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

Our delegate was instructed to vote on changes as he understands the memberships' wishes. Those include:

1. Keep unit / delegate voting. If MALs vote individually or send a delegate, that is ok too.

2. Eliminate the Nominating Committee Recommendation. Report out ALL qualified candidates.

3. Demonstrate how the changes will cut costs.

4. Share draft Bylaws with the Delegates BEFORE the vote. If necessary, table the revision until the Bylaws can be reviewed by the delegates.

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

Actually the vote would be FOR the perfected document that contains 3 of the 4.

from which it sounds like you did not consider retaining the Delegates Meeting as an absolute requirement for acceptance--you would vote for adoption if the other three conditions were met.

Could you please clarify?

Thanks,
Nuvi

[mbmbstreamer]

Excellent question. To be honest, I was allowing exception for sharing complete Bylaws.

If the proposed Bylaws demonstrate that appropriate debate and discussion take place before votes can be submitted, that would satisfy the 3 of 4 statement. I don't think a Caucus on one day is sufficient discussion and debate.

I would expect all issues go back to the units for discussion and debate. I like counting the votes through the Unit, rather than Jackson Center, allowing Units to implement their own procedures. Obviously the MALs would go through Jackson Center.

I would still get concerned about undue influence from the EC5 and IBT. They are simply too insulated from our members to get real feedback. There is always room for discussion.

I would prefer to look at proposed changes in advance and allow feedback from our units before the vote.

[HowieE]

Bill

It looks like you asked your question about the Caucus on April 6th
Article XVI member caucus
and was answered as follows. If you still have questions please elaborate.



There have been many suggestions that the International Rally needs more flexibility in setting dates and some question whether it should be held annually. We would expect that the Caucus would normally be held at the Rally but what if a Rally is not held or is cancelled? This provision would give the Club the flexibility to schedule another venue for a Members’ Caucus.

Freeing the International Rally from the July 1 – July 4 bracket can have benefits of more flexibility in finding good locations and may facilitate attendance by more members, but it creates challenges for statutory requirements for conducting certain Club business associated with the start and finish of a fiscal year, such as the installation of new officers. We believe that suitable electronic systems are available to allow effective participation. Details of how these meetings will be conducted will be addressed in Bylaws and policies.

The current delegate system is being replaced by both direct member voting and the Members’ caucus. They are fully linked. Direct member voting obviates the role of the delegate and we want to retain a deliberative forum through the Caucus. We are encouraging broad discussion throughout the Club so that members can decide if these combined changes are an improvement.



.

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by mbmbstreamer

I would still get concerned about undue influence from the EC5 and IBT. They are simply too insulated from our members to get real feedback. There is always room for discussion.

How can they influence the delegates or members, when?

As far as being insulated from member feedback. I don't agree, they can email or phone. When the Wbcci forum is running again that may be another avenue.

Yes always room for discussion.


.

[wkerfoot]

Yes, you can email them, but receiving an acknowledgment that they opened your email, much less read is different. I am still waiting for an acknowledgment from the IP and 1VP on an email I sent on April 4, 2011. In addition, many of my emails are not acknowledged.

What information do you have that they will participate in the next forum?

Bill

Originally Posted by LI Pets

How can they influence the delegates or members, when?

As far as being insulated from member feedback. I don't agree, they can email or phone. When the Wbcci forum is running again that may be another avenue.

Yes always room for discussion.


.

[LI Pets]

Discussions at the Annual Members’ Caucus shall serve to inform members and the originators of proposed amendments about concerns, possible modifications and benefits of the proposal before a direct vote by members takes place.

A debate before the units final meeting on such amendments.
Any member can part take in the debate


Art XVI Sec. 2 Any chartered Unit may submit in writing to Headquarters a proposed amendment to this Standard of Conduct or Constitution.

No longer a majority vote of the units within a Region which can take time prior to sending it out to all the units needing to vote which can take a year and a half or more.

1. Member(s) of a unit propose an amendment, the unit decides it should propose such an amendment to HQ.

2.Goes to CBL if technical correct it moves forward regardless of that committees opinion.

3.Placed on agenda published in BB and web site.

4.Debate at local unit level

5.Caucus debate.

6.Debate at local unit level again if needed

7.Member direct vote

8.HQ will tabulate votes within 5 days of ballot due date

9.Published next BB and website.




.

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by LI Pets

When the Wbcci forum is running again.
.

Correction that forum idea is on a very back burner.