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Old 05-03-2011, 08:27 AM   #15
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To send ballots with only our existing communications (IP and CBL Chair recommendations) would result in a very uninformed membership voting as recommended.

I will be voting for a change that keeps delegate voting, reduces the size of the IBT, establishes the Delegates as the final authority on the Constitution, and open for some method of empowering MALs.
My feelings exactly. MAL votes can be collected electronically and treated as a virtual unit delegate with proportional voting. 1M1V is taken care of.

The trickle-down of information in this club is terribly biased.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:02 AM   #16
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John,

My thoughts exactly!

Wow and to think that could have been done "without" re-writing the WBCCI Constitution!

The heck with the baby and bathwater thing. I guess some just like making new babies!
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:32 AM   #17
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Norm told you to clarify the bylaws and make it consistent to the Constitution last August. You decided to rewrite the Constitution. What is the difference in what you did from what you say a delegate might do? Seems like you are saying that the delegates do not pay any attention to their fellow members tell them. I do not think that is true for most delegates, but this is a weakness of all representative democracies. (which I pointed out 50 postings ago.) You can imagine that any delegate that acted that way would be thrown out of the unit as soon as the members found out what he had done.
You are absolutely incorrect, Norm never said that at all!

Where do you get that one from?

...

Delegates do not always follow the desires of their unit.

I don't think they would get thrown out.




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Old 05-03-2011, 09:36 AM   #18
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To send ballots with only our existing communications (IP and CBL Chair recommendations) would result in a very uninformed membership voting as recommended.
Quote:
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My feelings exactly. MAL votes can be collected electronically and treated as a virtual unit delegate with proportional voting. 1M1V is taken care of.

The trickle-down of information in this club is terribly biased.

Folks are you saying that there in no other source of communications or debate on any issue to be voted upon?

What about the MEMBER caucus with streaming for all to see and listen?

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Old 05-03-2011, 09:57 AM   #19
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What about the MEMBER caucus with streaming for all to see and listen?
.
A member caucus would be as useless as hobnail boots on a butterfly (I usually use a different comparison, but I'm on my best behavior this morning).

Consider how few listen to the presently streamed meetings. I can almost certainly count on one hand the number of our unit members that listen to streamed IBT or delegates meetings. Nothing will change by christening a meeting "caucus".
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:14 AM   #20
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John haven't heard that expression in a while

A lot changes, if the vote isn't made under all kinds of pressure.

Now there is no way for a delegate to relay new info obtained and get the input from its members while at the delegate meeting.

Some delegates may not fully understand and vote incorrectly.

In the Revision method there is a benefit of additional member input at the Caucus (not voting) when the members get back home BEFORE voting in several weeks.


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Old 05-03-2011, 10:45 AM   #21
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"What about the MEMBER caucus with streaming for all to see and listen?"

Bob,

Will this be done via Unicast or Multicast video/voice? Who will make that decision and pay the cost?

Do you understand the cost to setup a temporary service like this for up to 6000 users which may or maynot be able to be done based on the location of the meeting?
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:28 AM   #22
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I like your Summary. I like the ideas optimism. In practice, however, it falls short.

Our delegate and his predecessors are typically the only members who follow International and Region politics. More than one has returned from International with a whole new perspective, interest, and frustration.

In our business meeting, that delegate asks for direction. Since he knows for several years in advance that he will be called upon, he normally is better informed than most. On that basis, we expect him to represent us but accept any new information he gathers before and during the Delegate Meeting.

About 15 to 20 percent of our members get involved at the 2 Business Meetings. The Delegate gets informed and goes to International. Few others attend the current delegate sessions. Votes are cast by the well informed, based on the input they receive.

The alternative, we would have the same 15 to 20 percent involved. Fewer would attend the member caucus. Very few listen to the Mid-winter or Delegate streaming and that wouldn't likely change. So our votes would be cast by the 20 percent who become informed and the unknown number of in-informed. No options once the ballots go out. Simply an up or down vote.

Our membership is uncomfortable with votes by the in-informed, with only the International recommendation as a guide.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:13 PM   #23
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The alternative, we would have the same 15 to 20 percent involved. Fewer would attend the member caucus. Very few listen to the Mid-winter or Delegate streaming and that wouldn't likely change. So our votes would be cast by the 20 percent who become informed and the unknown number of in-informed. No options once the ballots go out.
But you really don't know for sure that fewer would attend!
The reason is because the members have never been allowed in.

If there are 600+- members attending the International how many will attend? I guess half (that also depends on what the subject of the vote is) if it was the addition of SOB motor homes I guess all 600 would show up

As far as watching a stream v hearing a boring audio I think (with a picture worth a thousand words) more would participate, be mindful that they could replay it at any time or record exerts out for further debate before voting.

Quote:
Our membership is uncomfortable with votes by the in-informed, with only the International recommendation as a guide.
Not sure what you mean there? they want them excluded, I doubt that.

They are entitled to a vote.

Also, not sure what International recommendation as a guide means.

Matt as one of the largest units in the club with over 300 members I believe is that correct?

Question, when your delegate casts his vote with 20% voting or 60 member votes how are the other 240 votes cast?


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Old 05-03-2011, 12:38 PM   #24
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Bob,

Members have never been allowed in?? To what, I attended the delegates meeting in Bozeman as a spectator. What are members not allowed into?

As far as the members not voting, I assume that it is like most units, non votes are not counted and the voting members are grossed up to the voting strength of the unit. ie, if a unit has 300 votes and only 20 members vote, one half for and one half against, the votes at the delegates meeting are cast 150 for and 150 against. Isn't that the current procedure?

Bill

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But you really don't know for sure that fewer would attend!
The reason is because the members have never been allowed in.

If there are 600+- members attending the International how many will attend? I guess half (that also depends on what the subject of the vote is) if it was the addition of SOB motor homes I guess all 600 would show up

As far as watching a stream v hearing a boring audio I think (with a picture worth a thousand words) more would participate, be mindful that they could replay it at any time or record exerts out for further debate before voting.



Not sure what you mean there? they want them excluded, I doubt that.

They are entitled to a vote.

Also, not sure what International recommendation as a guide means.

Matt as one of the largest units in the club with over 300 members I believe is that correct?

Question, when your delegate casts his vote with 20% voting or 60 member votes how are the other 240 votes cast?


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Old 05-03-2011, 12:54 PM   #25
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1. The in-informed are those who could vote from home and never attend a meeting or become involved in unit events. My unit would accept MAL votes from home, but doesn't want it for unit votes.

2. The "International Recommendation" is the information we receive in the Blue Beret or by mail from Jackson Center. Better information is gathered at Unit Rallies and meetings. Discussion with others forms a more reasoned opinion.

3. Currently, those voting at our Business Meeting determine how our unit votes will be cast. Whether the 320+ are split or unanimous is also up to those in the business meeting. By the way, we seldom have a split vote in our meetings, except when more than a single candidate is put for a vote. Then, we split it proportionally.

4. All our members have the chance to participate, but they must choose to attend the meeting. The delegate votes as the unit (those present) direct him.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:56 PM   #26
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Make that "The UN-informed" in item 1.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:00 PM   #27
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One more point. I have attended every Delegates Seminar and Delegates Meeting since joining. You are required to wear your badge and are absolutely welcome to attend.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:41 PM   #28
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I have attended a few as well. You need not even be attending the International Rally or the Mid Winter IBT, all business meetings are open to all WBCCI members free of charge.
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