"Winterize" in a mild Climate

[HowieE]

We are missing a few point here.

Wind has NO EFFECT with respect to freezing on things other than LIVING things. Wind effects the evaporation rate off a living thing and thus gives the feeling of a lower temperature but it does not lower the temperature. Yes it will accelerate the rate of heat loss but it can not lower the ambient temperature.

Another point commonly lost is that insulation does not keep something from freezing it only postpones it. If there is not a heat source on the protected side of the insulation postponement is the best you will get. In fact insulation can be a detriment. Say it is below freezing for the first night and goes above freezing during the next day. The insulation prevents the system from coming up to that days temperature and starts the system on second night at a lower temperature.

The one thing to keep in mind here is it take 80 times as much loss of heat to freeze a drop of water from 32 degrees water to 32 degrees ice as it did to drop that same drop from 33 water to 32 water.

Another thing is the damage is not done during freezing it is done during thawing.

[Punch]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Wind has NO EFFECT with respect to freezing on things other than LIVING things. ....Yes it will accelerate the rate of heat loss ....

I guess I`m getting sick of a circular discussion here. I`d just point out that you contradict yourself. Last word from me.

[bennu36]

Ok so here is what I did yersterday ..... I wanted to get one of those kits to put a "by pass" at the water pump so I went to camping world to get it driving Morrison because my plan was to rent a spot for the day at a near by RV park so I could use the dump and the electricity and have a place to work. I should explain I live in a floating home in the middle of the columbia river. Our parking is limited and Morrison barely fits with is back end sort of hanging over a steep bank. On my way to camping world I had a thought. They have a free dumpstaion, they have a big parking lot, I spent lots of money there, I have a genset, so I decided to do the work there.

Well I went in and bought the by pass kit, and a wrench they had hanging on the wall for removing the plug from the hot water tank and it came with two repalcement plugs. So the plan was:
1. Drain the freshwater tank ( I didnt think to use your idea of using the out side shower next time I will) I did not get under it and use that plug I forgot it had been mentioned before in other posts and there is no mention of it in the AS owners manual.
2. Blow the lines clear with the low point drains open
3.Close them again and first drain then blow out the hot water heater, then set by pass valve in winterized position.
4. Dump the tanks
5. Pump antifreeze though the line using the pump and the by pass..... so here is where my plan went a bit sideways the by pass kit as it was could not be used the pump in Morrison has Flo-Jets "quick connect " fittings not the more mundane threaded conectings. Had I known before I left I think I might have all I need for my own sort of by pass here in the boat well as my boat has much the same pump on it. So step 5 became
5a.Add two gallons of anitfreeze to the fresh water tank And pump through system till pink runs though both the cold and hot sides of all including the out side shower and head. (if needed add more anitfreeze)
6. Pour antifreeze in all drains including the floor drain in the shower
7. Return to dump to dump tanks again thus getting antifreeze in bot dump valves and the pump and hose.

so thats what I did took all together including the messing around in camping world first buying the returning the by pass kit about 2 hours and a good portion of that was waitng in line for the pump out twice and talking with folks in the parking lot that wanted to ask about Morrison.

[PharmGeek]

If you are at a temp outside just above freezing, and never below freezing...how much wind will it take to freeze the pipes?

If just below freezing, but just ever so barely....I suppose in principle winds could hasten the transfer of heat...but in the end, freezing temps freeze and non-freezing temps do not? I think?

[73shark]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

If you are at a temp outside just above freezing, and never below freezing...how much wind will it take to freeze the pipes?

If just below freezing, but just ever so barely....I suppose in principle winds could hasten the transfer of heat...but in the end, freezing temps freeze and non-freezing temps do not? I think?

I believe you are correct. As long as the exposed pipes or tanks are not wet on the surface, the temperature of the liquid inside should never go below the ambient temperature. All the wind would do is hasten the cooling to ambient.

[HowieE]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

If you are at a temp outside just above freezing, and never below freezing...how much wind will it take to freeze the pipes?

If just below freezing, but just ever so barely....I suppose in principle winds could hasten the transfer of heat...but in the end, freezing temps freeze and non-freezing temps do not? I think?

In your fist comment the pipes would never freeze.

In you second the pipes would freeze in time but the wind would not be a contributing factor.

We have to separate the hysteria that the weather man promotes with respect to our comfort from science.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Another thing is the damage is not done during freezing it is done during thawing.

Actually, having seen frozen centrifugal pumps that were ruined at one of our field facilities by a cold snap (cast steel sump pump housing cracked) long before they thawed out, I'd have to dispute that. It's the expansion of the ice as it forms that does the damage. It has only snowed three times since I've lived here, and this was one of those times.

Side note…
I'm confused about all of the emphasis on wind chill in so many of these posts. It's not really germaine to whether— or how extensively— to winterize in a mild climate.

Another side note…
No mention has been made about which pink antifreeze to get. RV antifreeze comes in several grades, depending on what the concentration of propylene glycol is. The rating listed on the jug is the temperature at which a copper pipe containing the antifreeze will burst. Plastic pipe will burst at higher temps, about 40°F higher than copper on average, for the same wall thickness on the pipe. You would need RV antifreeze rated for 40°F colder than the temperatures you expect to encounter, if you want to protect the plastic pipe.

So, if you want to protect your Interstate's plumbing from a Portland winter, where the record low temperature ever was -3°F, you need RV antifreeze rated for about -50°F, which is about 58% propylene glycol, to protect against the record low temp.

Here in New Orleans, IF I were to use RV antifreeze, I would only need antifreeze rated for -30°F, or about 52% propylene glycol, to protect against the record low temperature of all time. And most years, I could buy any RV antifreeze, regardless of the temperature rating, and still be okay, because even the lowest concentration will provide enough protection for our typical mild winters.

[73shark]

All of the RV antifreeze sold locally that I have seen is good for -50 degrees F. It typically runs about $2 a gallon.

[HowieE]

Punch

If I am going to be quote here please at least complete the quote.

"Yes it will accelerate the rate of heat loss but it can not lower the ambient temperature."

[PharmGeek]

Protaganist...I think wind chill is a considerable factor for various home related pipe freezing...

So like pipes in an attic or a garage where there is ambient transfer from home heat to that other compartment that has the pipes....often online articles on the subject give numbers like "below 20 degrees" to need to worry too much about freezing pipes...because of the home generating heat...but if the attic is leaky to air, or the pipes are below the home...etc...wind could mean the difference between freezing and not for these spaces....so the internet told me lol...I will say that for my home, I have only once froze a pipe, and it got into the teens, the 30's do nothing to my pipes so far...but perhaps 30 degress + 30mph winds? possible.

but for RV's and such...I think wind would play a factor but much much less so if at all...the freezing temps would still have to reach the pipes...exchange of heat would still need to happen but AS's are not highly insulated...as the sun falls and the temp falls, how long will it take the pipes to get down to equal outdoor temps? arguably even faster with wind as a factor...

I suspect that once down into the 30's early in the night...and freezing all night...even on a wind-less night that would be conditions enough to freeze a pipe? even an insulated ones?

Here is a question then...as far as homes go...we often hear about 20's being a threshold to worry about it....I can confirm that with my home...is there an RV outdoor "functional" temp that differes from the actual outdoor freezing temp?

I doubt it

[HowieE]

Protaganist

You are correct. As quoted from
Why does water expand when it freezes?
Why does liquid water have a density maximum?

Most liquids have a quite simple behavior when they are cooled (at a fixed pressure): they shrink. The liquid contracts as it is cooled; because the molecules are moving slower they are less able to overcome the attractive intermolecular forces drawing them closer to each other. Then the freezing temperature is reached, and the substance solidifies, which causes it to contract some more because crystalline solids are usually tightly packed.
Water is one of the few exceptions to this behavior. When liquid water is cooled, it contracts like one would expect until a temperature of approximately 4 degrees Celsius is reached. After that, it expands slightly until it reaches the freezing point, and then when it freezes it expands by approximately 9%.

[PharmGeek]

water expands when freezing, yup....

Perhaps the perception that thawing causes the damage is that perhaps some of the evidence of the damage is not seen until thawing occurs?

Anyway, this post turned all sciency didnt it

good stuff though cause for now, I assume that until I winterize, if the temps will drop below freezing at all...I will be having the furnace run...

[Skater]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

good stuff though cause for now, I assume that until I winterize, if the temps will drop below freezing at all...I will be having the furnace run...

Yep. Right now, our camper's furnace is set to 40 degrees - just in case (we replaced the original thermostat with a digital one, and it actually goes down to 40 degrees; the original only went as low as 50).

With a setting of 40 degrees, around here, this time of year, the furnace runs pretty rarely, if ever, so I'm not burning much propane or using much power by having it ready.

There are just too many factors to make a firm determination of exactly when it's no longer safe to let the camper go without winterizing. Even two campers of the exact same model, parked right next to each other, could be different due to seemingly minor differences, like different curtains in the windows that change the rate of heat loss.

I usually winterize the first time after Thanksgiving, because December temperatures around here can sometimes get decently below freezing. From about October through Thanksgiving I watch our temperatures to make sure we don't have a super cold night, and if we do I set up the furnace.

[PharmGeek]

Luckily only perhaps 10 or so freezing nights here in Alabama -

Hmm - wonder if my thermostat goes to 40 - if 50 that could prove annoying - in that case I would go out and turn on furnace or freezing times only (oh you are thinking human error now right )

[avanti]

I'm with Protagonist: Even though I live up north, I use my Interstate occasionally even in the dead of winter, including full plumbing. If I used antifreeze, I too would end up using a LOT of it. I also agree that "to each his or her own". If the pink stuff lets you sleep better, fair enough. But, my bottom line is that over 8 northern winters, compressed air has done the job for me.

As for leaving the furnace on, during short periods of un-winterized storage, I usually leave an electric space heater turned on in the vehicle with its stat set appropriately. If it gets cold, it just turns on and takes the chill off. No worry about running out of propane. When I do this, I also open up appropriate cabinets, etc, to improve circulation of the warm air to the pipes.

[Kota]

Wind chill is not a factor. Wind will blow cold air through cracks and freeze pipes. The only thing that matters is what the thermometer reads and wind doesn't effect that. (Thermodynamics)

Cracked pipes and fittings form freezing will always occurred in the absolute hardest place to access. (Murphy)

I made a fitting with a hose that hooks up to the input of the pump after disconnecting the line to the tank. Saves a bunch of antifreeze in not having to put any in the tank. I rinse the tank with a Sanitizer solution, drain it, and leave the drain valve open.

I run the pump an open the faucets and flush the toilet until pink solution runs until enough flows to fill the traps. Take my about 2 gallons to purge the system and make sure the accumulator is full.

I open the drain plug on the hot water heater and put it in the bypass position. I'll crack the bypass valve for a moment until pink flows from the water heater drain.

I open the waste drain gate valves and make sure the tanks are dry.

The whole process take about 30 minutes.

That's my procedure.

[TouringDan]

PG & Ntex- No need to winterize. If it is going to go down into the 20's, turn the wh on and run a small electric heater on low. This way you are all set to camp when the opportunity presents itself.

Dan

[PharmGeek]

dan and others....20 is about as cold as it will get...every once in a rare while we will hit 15-18 degrees...last time this happened I had a single pipe freeze in my house...did not burst...no damage luckily (whew) -

will just a room heater really get down to even warm the pipes?

[TouringDan]

Pharm Geek & Ntex

I bought a remote thermometer at Walmart for $10 to keep track of the temperature inside the fridge and at the instrument, which would be the interior temperature of the Airstream on the kitchen counter. It works quite well. You can see a photo of it in post #33 of my thread- Dan's 66 Tradewind Improvements.

I don't need to monitor fridge performace now, so I moved the remote sensor from the interior of the fridge to the outside of the Airstream- namely the A frame. This allows me to monitor the outside temperature and also the inside temperature of the Airstream. This comes in handy when the night time temperature dips close to or below freezing and you want to keep the temperature in the Airstream above freezing so you don't freeze any pipes.

For example, about one week ago, the area temperature dipped to 25 degrees. I had my electric heater set on low (about 700 watts using my wattmeter) and the wh was turned on. When I checked the temperatures at 6:00 the A frame temp was 29 degrees, the interior temp was 37 degrees.

My goal is to keep any lines from freezing, but also not spend any more money or resources than necessary to do this.

This works well when the weather is mild and you really want to be ready to camp.

Dan

[TouringDan]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

will just a room heater really get down to even warm the pipes?

Another use for the remote thermometer- leave the instrument on the counter and put the remote sensor where the pipes are located. It will tell you the relative temperatures. You could also use a fan in the Airstream to blow heated air into any area that you may be concerned about.

I think a small electric heater will be fine. I also use a 13 watt bulb in my rear trunk area where most of my plumbing lines are to keep this area from freezing.

Now I am in Virginia, so I will drain my lines very soon, within 2 weeks, but I just am not ready to say that I am all done camping yet.

Dan