Watt fuel cell potential for Interstates?

[InterBlog]

The market debut of the Watt fuel cell is being discussed on one of the lithium threads (permalink here), but if anything deserves its own discussion thread, this is it.

Here are the two YouTube vids that have just emerged, and then I will follow up in a fresh post by asking some questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r7q...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naQk...ature=youtu.be

[InterBlog]

OK, based on this limited information, here are my initial questions.

(1) The aspect ratio suggests that it cannot be under-mounted. Is it strictly for internal installation? The English guy implies as much, comparing the result to putting a combustion generator in a rig. And near the end of the vid there's chatter suggesting it needs to be installed inside.

(2) Does it really require that huge vent? Where does the hole go in the rig?

(3) A third of a pound of propane per hour. Reference to hooking up the kind of BBQ tanks one can get at a c-store. Where and how do they envision people carrying BBQ tanks of propane in a Class B? We were all through that issue on the Carrying extra propane thread a few years ago. That is NOT a no-brainer of a limitation.

(4) Not a question but an observation: guy on the right said 40 to 50 amps out of it per hour.

(5) Hammill says 240 hours of charging out of one of Roadtrek's propane tanks. What on earth are they installing in the way of propane tank(s), and where?

Those are just the questions that come to mind right out of the starting blocks.

[Tobbun]

Thanks for setting up a separate thread. This is really interesting technology and will be watching this closely. It sounds too good to be true at this point.

I agree with you on the questions. I do think it is internal since they made a big deal about no fumes, etc. I think on the BBQ propane tank they were trying to use that as a reference point.. saying the equivalent propane in one of those would last 60 hours.

The question I have is about power generation for AC... so could we run the AC with this thing or is it really just battery charging and we would need a bigger inverter to run the AC from batteries and this thing is recharging those batteries?

[InterBlog]

Parallel discussion on Class B Forum:

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...stem-8313.html

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Tobbun

... The question I have is about power generation for AC... so could we run the AC with this thing or is it really just battery charging and we would need a bigger inverter to run the AC from batteries and this thing is recharging those batteries?

It only puts out 500 watts. If you watch the videos in the first post you will see it is a battery charger to supplement solar when the sun is not available. You still need a big battery bank to run A/C from batteries.

I've been following the discussion on the Class B forum as this is very interesting technology. But the Watt fuel cell being used by Roadtrek it is really part of a triad of systems; big battery, large solar array and the fuel cell.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One way or the other, the gizmo does put out byproducts. Even if it's just water and CO2, they still will build up in an enclosed space. Some sort of vent will be needed.

One pound of propane has 21,600 BTU of energy in it. That comes out to 6330 watts. If it burns in an hour, the proper units would be 6.3 KWH. A gizmo that puts out 500W over that hour is doing ... errr ... 0.5 KWH. That's about 8% efficiency. An inverter generator can get you into the 20 to 30% range.

With any conversion approach, it's just as important to look at what happens at low outputs as at high. Generators are really bad if you run them at light loads. It is a bit unclear just how well the Watt does at various loads ...

Lots of questions ...

Bob

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

One way or the other, the gizmo does put out byproducts. Even if it's just water and CO2, they still will build up in an enclosed space. Some sort of vent will be needed.

One pound of propane has 21,600 BTU of energy in it. That comes out to 6330 watts. If it burns in an hour, the proper units would be 6.3 KWH. A gizmo that puts out 500W over that hour is doing ... errr ... 0.5 KWH. That's about 8% efficiency. An inverter generator can get you into the 20 to 30% range.

With any conversion approach, it's just as important to look at what happens at low outputs as at high. Generators are really bad if you run them at light loads. It is a bit unclear just how well the Watt does at various loads ...

Lots of questions ...

Bob

Looks to me this is another solution looking for a problem to solve.

[Keithkleinmd]

I have used the EFOY fuel cell for ten years. I now have two of them It uses methanol, a much safer fuel than propane and can be stored indoors. It is a trickle charger only, it does not generate AC and is best used to keep batteries up when there is no sun.
THe waste is pure water and carbon dioxide in such small amounts that I decided to stop venting it and had no problems.

As for installing it inside, I see no problem with the EFOY or the methanol, compared to propane. You an also store it on a shelf on the trailer hitch and attach the charging cables at night. Since it is a trickle charger, they are not that heavy, probably about 16 gauge at most.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Keithkleinmd

I have used the EFOY fuel cell for ten years. I now have two of them It uses methanol, a much safer fuel than propane and can be stored indoors. It is a trickle charger only, it does not generate AC and is best used to keep batteries up when there is no sun.
THe waste is pure water and carbon dioxide in such small amounts that I decided to stop venting it and had no problems.

As for installing it inside, I see no problem with the EFOY or the methanol, compared to propane. You an also store it on a shelf on the trailer hitch and attach the charging cables at night. Since it is a trickle charger, they are not that heavy, probably about 16 gauge at most.

Which EFOY are you using? The largest EFOY Pro 12000 is the model that is comparable to the Watt unit. But it is a 24/48V unit.
https://www.efoy-pro.com/en/efoy-pro...pro-12000-duo/

[Keithkleinmd]

Efoy 210
The pro series is too big. This gives me about 200 watts of trickle charging. It cost around $5000 when I bought it three years ago. I had an older model for about 5-6 years

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Keithkleinmd

Efoy 210
The pro series is too big. This gives me about 200 watts of trickle charging. It cost around $5000 when I bought it three years ago. I had an older model for about 5-6 years

KEITH - I'd like to hear more about your experiences with the EFOY fuel cells. They have been around for a long time now and have a good track record. I just looked at the EFOY web site and noticed that have an integrated system by combining with MasterVolt.

I'd like to eliminate LP in my next B-van and a fuel cell like the EFOY has some real advantages.

Thanks,

[Lotus54]

When I was working, I bought several EFOY direct methonal fuel cells. Of course I can’t remember the model anymore, one of the Pro models. It put out somethign like 6 amps if I recall. (But I’d have to look it up).
They were in enclosed boxes at mountaintops- with often 10-30 feet of snow. they do require fresh air for the proper chemistry of the stack, but the CO2 exhaust or water was never a problem. The shelters did have small vents, but of course no fans or anything. That would have been counter productive, since the electronics only drew about 120mA 24/7 (about 10 amps when transmitting).

they were quite reliable and also sold for RVs. Not cheap, but super quiet and reliable. They could be mounted almost anywhere, with some small vents.

mark

[Keithkleinmd]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

KEITH - I'd like to hear more about your experiences with the EFOY fuel cells. They have been around for a long time now and have a good track record. I just looked at the EFOY web site and noticed that have an integrated system by combining with MasterVolt.

I'd like to eliminate LP in my next B-van and a fuel cell like the EFOY has some real advantages.

Thanks,

I'm not familiar with the integrated unit. I do know that EFOY fuel cells are commonly used in sail boats and campers in Europe. I may have been the first person to use an EFOY in a boat in the United States. I had to order everything from Europe, there were no US distributors at the time, and had the methanol shipped from England.

It is a different story now, of course. So on my boat I have solar and the EFOY with a charge controller. The EFOY just sits there quietly doing its thing and a red light on the control panel lets me know when to replace the methanol. It is all mounted in an enclosed space with minimal venting. I have had no problems using it in Maine winters for about six years, when I decided to upgrade to a newer unit.

[Lotus54]

I think the ones we used (still using as far as I know) is the EFOY (some were branded SFC) pro 1200- could have been the 1600, but I’ll have to find some old pictures.

They make way less noise than the water pump in the AI, maybe about like a compressor refrigerator at home. If you live in a larger city, getting the Methonal is probably easy. You could refill the special containers, BUT any contamination will ruin the stack. That is expensive. Remember, these do not combust. Here is a white paper that has some descriptions.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf

Methonal is a lot less volatile than gasoline, although of course still flammable and you don’t want to be drinking it...

The ones I have used don’t put out a lot of power, but they will do so very quietly and completely in the background. We had solar in parallel - when the panels were covered in rime ice or snow, then the fuel cell would kick on if the voltage in the rather large battery bank dropped too low.

Solar here in the mountains (especially the west side, that gets well over 12 feet of rain) where the clouds can sit right over the peaks for weeks at a time...well it doesn’t always work very well. Add rime ice into the picture and inaccessibility and you have to have something that will work no matter what. It is a big deal if the site goes down.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Keithkleinmd

I'm not familiar with the integrated unit. I do know that EFOY fuel cells are commonly used in sail boats and campers in Europe. I may have been the first person to use an EFOY in a boat in the United States. I had to order everything from Europe, there were no US distributors at the time, and had the methanol shipped from England.

It is a different story now, of course. So on my boat I have solar and the EFOY with a charge controller. The EFOY just sits there quietly doing its thing and a red light on the control panel lets me know when to replace the methanol. It is all mounted in an enclosed space with minimal venting. I have had no problems using it in Maine winters for about six years, when I decided to upgrade to a newer unit.

What sort of minimum temperatures did you encounter during Maine winters? Since you were on the water I imagine just barely below freezing.

Looking at the USA EFOY dealers listed on their web pages it looks like the fuel might now be widely available from marine supply places, especially near the coasts. Have you had any issues now getting the EFOY fuel cartridges?

Doing a quick search I see widely varying prices for an M10 fuel cartridge, from $80 to $160. Certainly shipping adds to cost so it would be best to get the fuel directly from a local source.

[Keithkleinmd]

The methanol supplied by EFOY is ultra pure and any other methanol you buy may not work and possibly damage their unit. The main contaminant would be water. There are ways to remove all traces of water from methaol and attempt to refill their specialized containers, but I don't think it is worth the risk of damaging the unit. The containers come with special caps to connect them to the EFOY unit.
Recently there are a few manufactures of fuel cells that use less pure methanol, but I haven't kept up with them all. One of them may be Horizon in China.

Using propane is fine since propane is already stored on an EV, but I have issues with it as a safe fuel in boating as venting is critical. It is not as much an issue in my Airstream Interstate as venting is more natural and easier than in a boat.

If one waits, there are new fuel cells coming out, some that use sea water, some with compressed hydrogen, which is essentially what the methanol or propane is converted to, as they function as proton donors in the chemical reaction of the fuel cell that generate electricity.

One company sells a small hydrogen powered fuel cell with a hydrogen generator. It is still too small for use in an RV, mainly to charge cell phones and the like, but one can predict the future with certainly here.

[Keithkleinmd]

There are no longer problems getting the methanol containers for the EFOY. There are at least three suppliers on the East Coast and one in San Francisco on the West coast and delivery is very quick. I keep two spare containers all the time.

Maine temperatures dropped to around freezing, the boat was not always heated, so the temperature in the compartment with the fuel cell probably got close to freezing.
It didn't appear to affect the unit and alcohol has a lower freezing point than water, so the methanol never froze. I later took my boat through the Panama canal to Los Angeles, 3 months, three hurricanes with the boat tossing and turning and pounding, and no problems encountered with the EFOY unit being tilted at every crazy angle and suffering the pounding of the boat in rough seas.

[Keithkleinmd]

I enjoy the discussion about the fuel cell and I do NOT want to sound like an advertisement for EFOY, and apologize if I do sound like that. To the point, I have no financial relationship with the manufactures of any fuel cell system.

I am simply fascinated with the technology, having studied it in my chemistry classes decades ago as a test tube experiment and seeing it now going commercial is exciting.
If I had to replace my EFOY unit. I am not sure I would get that before investigating how the market has evolved and what new companies, new fuel sources and new power availability is out there. So to my dear online RV friends, please thoroughly investigate the companies and technology before committing to any specific unit. I would feel horrible if I contributed to any problems you may have going for this technology .

[Air99]

Originally Posted by Keithkleinmd

I enjoy the discussion about the fuel cell and I do NOT want to sound like an advertisement for EFOY, and apologize if I do sound like that. To the point, I have no financial relationship with the manufactures of any fuel cell system.

I am simply fascinated with the technology, having studied it in my chemistry classes decades ago as a test tube experiment and seeing it now going commercial is exciting.
If I had to replace my EFOY unit. I am not sure I would get that before investigating how the market has evolved and what new companies, new fuel sources and new power availability is out there. So to my dear online RV friends, please thoroughly investigate the companies and technology before committing to any specific unit. I would feel horrible if I contributed to any problems you may have going for this technology .

Thanks for the great info on user experience, I’m watching the LP Watt system closely since propane is already on board.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Keithkleinmd

I enjoy the discussion about the fuel cell and I do NOT want to sound like an advertisement for EFOY, and apologize if I do sound like that. To the point, I have no financial relationship with the manufactures of any fuel cell system.

I am simply fascinated with the technology, having studied it in my chemistry classes decades ago as a test tube experiment and seeing it now going commercial is exciting.
If I had to replace my EFOY unit. I am not sure I would get that before investigating how the market has evolved and what new companies, new fuel sources and new power availability is out there. So to my dear online RV friends, please thoroughly investigate the companies and technology before committing to any specific unit. I would feel horrible if I contributed to any problems you may have going for this technology .

Thanks KLK - appreciate your info on experience with the EFOY unit. You gave us some good info on use of a fuel cell and it did not come across as an advertisement.

I like the EFOY as a possiblity for my next van, that will not have propane.