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Old 11-17-2019, 08:45 AM   #1
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T1N Interstate mystery leak - source?

We have our first rainwater leak in 5 years of ownership. Trouble is, I haven't found the cause yet.

It is a BIG leak - there was nothing whatsoever, and then BOOM - Just Like That, water was dumping in.

It's emerging consistently at one spot only, and you can see it in the annotated photo below (sorry for the messy rig - I'm in the middle of doing some unrelated work).

Before we begin tearing the place apart, I thought I'd ask if anyone else has seen anything similar, and if so, what did you discover?

And you know what we say on this forum - if it's happening to me now, it will be happening to you tomorrow, if you also have a T1N rig.

TIA.

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Old 11-17-2019, 09:31 AM   #2
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I had some water infiltrating into the ceiling cavity from a crack in my vent fan trim piece. I couldn’t see the crack but found it only after removing the fan from the lower trim. My guess is it’s one of the penetrations in the roof and it’s moving down your ceiling panel and coming in right there.
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:02 AM   #3
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I think I have a leak in the window on mine (I assume it is ‘glued’ in, but not sure what the small screws do).
I would suspect the rack mounting due to location. But I’m sure you inspected that well- perhaps that fan housing like suggested?
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Old 11-17-2019, 10:05 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by nateallen80 View Post
I had some water infiltrating into the ceiling cavity from a crack in my vent fan trim piece. I couldnít see the crack but found it only after removing the fan from the lower trim. My guess is itís one of the penetrations in the roof and itís moving down your ceiling panel and coming in right there.
That would be my assessment as well. I had water POURING into the ceiling of my van and to BOTH sides when parked level; even after the previous owner had the through-hulls "resealed." Climbing up there was a revelation. There were holes EVERYWHERE in the Dicor they used. Judicious application of another tube of Dicor after ripping out the "new" sealant and cleaning the surfaces with acetone seems to have done the trick.

As yours is the rear sleeper version and mine is the front sleeper, I can't quite align your interior in your photo with the awning mounting screws... but that's also something you might want to check.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:28 AM   #5
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I forgot about the awning mounting screws. I’d better check those on mine.
Thanks!
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Old 11-17-2019, 09:32 PM   #6
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I had a similar leak that showed up rather suddenly. It was limited to the forward area above the galley and over the passenger seat. I was sure it was from the MaxxAir fan on my roof as the caulking looked aged and had some cracks. It was the original caulking from 2012. The only other penetration on forward part of the roof is the SiriusXM antenna and it's caulking looked OK.

I removed the fan and cleaned the area. The bare edges left by Airstream were rusted. I treated the rust and replaced the caulking with Sikaflex 221. Haven't seen evidence of a leak since.

I'm attaching some photos I took of my vent fan flange to show how it was butchered by Airstream when they did the original installation. That V-cut they made on the flange left less than 1/4" surface to seal the flange to the roof. No wonder it started to leak.
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Old 11-18-2019, 05:01 AM   #7
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Boxster1971, Airstream did the same to the trim ring on my coach. Totally unnecessary.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:44 AM   #8
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Dear T1N Interstate community


Our 2006 Interstate also developed a water leak suddenly through the under-cabinet fluorescent light fixture. This happen at 2 AM at a campground in Arkansas. I thought my wife was pouring water on my leg; it was that bad. After we arrived home and examined the roof, what I found was quite disturbing. The tubular rack is attached to the roof of the Interstate at four points. Four square plates, with holes at three corners of each plate, are attached with 3/16" blind-rivets. On our Interstate, the passenger-side rear plate had become detached, leaving a 3/4" gap between the plate and van roof. This allowed a leak/stream of water to enter the Interstate, and somehow the water was channeled to the hole in the cabinet where the 12 v power to the fixture descends. As I examined the tubular roof rack more closely, I found that it had been welded together with 3/4" of torsional stress lengthwise. The three pop-rivets on the plate had all failed at the same time, explaining while the leak/stream had occurred so suddenly. I decided that the best remedy was to remove the tubular rack. The other plate-attachment points were barely holding, meaning that the rack could have easily removed itself as we drove down the road. I then patched the holes in the roof with sealant, and said goodbye to extra weight (around 50 pounds). In summary, only twelve 3/16" pop-rivets hold the roof rack to the Interstate. If other racks were welded together with same torsional bend as ours, I expect more failures in the future.


Safe travels,


Paul
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
I had a similar leak that showed up rather suddenly. It was limited to the forward area above the galley and over the passenger seat. I was sure it was from the MaxxAir fan on my roof as the caulking looked aged and had some cracks. It was the original caulking from 2012. The only other penetration on forward part of the roof is the SiriusXM antenna and it's caulking looked OK.

I removed the fan and cleaned the area. The bare edges left by Airstream were rusted. I treated the rust and replaced the caulking with Sikaflex 221. Haven't seen evidence of a leak since.

I'm attaching some photos I took of my vent fan flange to show how it was butchered by Airstream when they did the original installation. That V-cut they made on the flange left less than 1/4" surface to seal the flange to the roof. No wonder it started to leak.
For what it's worth, my T1N has a Fantastic fan about 2' forward of the rear doors. Other floorplans in the T1N coaches have the FF in other locations, but I believe that they all used Fantastic Fans as OEM equipment rather than the Maxx Air units apparently used on the NCV3 units.
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:07 AM   #10
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See the two lower red arrows in this older pic at the end of this post? They point to the area around the roof rack "feet" on the back of the van.

Those feet were carefully sealed with Sikaflex 221 and then top-coated with Bus Kote, like every other roof penetration, including the front feet.

However, it appears that materials science has bitten me on the patootie once again. On the outer rear corners of those back feet, tiny cracks developed in the Sika. Only in those locations. The cracks were so small that they could be mistaken for dirt streaks. They clearly allowed water to penetrate, and it may have proceeded down the bolt holes for the roof rack.

Why there? Why there ONLY? Every other seal appears to be fine, including the older self-leveling caulk around the Fantastic (I had not re-caulked that one because we are planning to rip that thing out and install a MaxxAir).

Could be a combination of amplified vibration in the rear of the van (the "tail wag" effect), plus, features in proximity to corners and edges are subject to differential weathering and breakdown generally (which is one of the cornerstones of materials science, in which that kind of phenomenon is studied at the molecular level).

Anyway, I'm going to start with a complete re-do of those feet - an in situ redo (we will eventually have to remove the rack, re-weld the sheet metal and re-install the rack and solar panels - a huge job). Right now the rust is not structural, but it's definitely gotten in there. I'll phosphate / POR-15 it, then multiple layers of paint, then re-Sikaflex, then elastomeric paint on top of the Sikaflex. Essentially, a 5-step sealing and recoating.

I don't know if that's what led to my present leak, but it definitely needs to be done either way.

Check your rear roof rack feet carefully, if you are a T1N Interstate owner.

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Old 11-19-2019, 11:46 AM   #11
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See the two lower red arrows in this older pic at the end of this post? They point to the area around the roof rack "feet" on the back of the van.

Those feet were carefully sealed with Sikaflex 221 and then top-coated with Bus Kote, like every other roof penetration, including the front feet.

However, it appears that materials science has bitten me on the patootie once again. On the outer rear corners of those back feet, tiny cracks developed in the Sika. Only in those locations. The cracks were so small that they could be mistaken for dirt streaks. They clearly allowed water to penetrate, and it may have proceeded down the bolt holes for the roof rack.

Why there? Why there ONLY? Every other seal appears to be fine, including the older self-leveling caulk around the Fantastic (I had not re-caulked that one because we are planning to rip that thing out and install a MaxxAir).

Could be a combination of amplified vibration in the rear of the van (the "tail wag" effect), plus, features in proximity to corners and edges are subject to differential weathering and breakdown generally
I would further conjecture that the roof rack is a much more rigid structure than is the van's body and will not flex as the van body does, likely stressing both the attaching hardware and the sealants as well likely also contributing to those observed stress cracks in the sealant. That's what appeared to have happened to the sealants on my coach.
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:19 PM   #12
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I would further conjecture that the roof rack is a much more rigid structure than is the van's body and will not flex as the van body does, likely stressing both the attaching hardware and the sealants as well likely also contributing to those observed stress cracks in the sealant. That's what appeared to have happened to the sealants on my coach.
T1N Sprinter owners do, indeed, have flexure issues generally. That's why the lap welds on the roof tend to rust out. Differential motion tends to open up the seams and crack the overlying paint, allowing water penetration. I watch those like a hawk, but they seem to be doing quite well since I added the elastomeric (Bus Kote) about 2 years ago.

The roof rack feet may represent another case of something breaking when it should be bending (like Airstream's plumbing had also done).

An interesting aside: A lot of our flexing occurs because I have to climb into our driveway at a very shallow angle, due to the concrete inflection where it meets the street. Now that we've got skid wheels on the rear end of the van instead of the original useless plates, I might try steepening that angle up a bit - there's potentially less consequence for me now if I misjudge and scrape, and a higher angle will keep the rear wheels closer to the same plane, potentially resulting in less flex.

Scrape, rattle, and roll...
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Old 11-20-2019, 10:33 AM   #13
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Hello All,


I may not have emphasized my main concern in my previous post adequately. Our tubular rack was attached to the roof of our Interstate with only twelve 3/16" diameter aluminum blind rivets. Airstream used blind rivets because they did not have access to the inside of the outer surface of the Van's roof. During vehicle flexion, the rivets wear and eventually fail. In addition, our tubular rack was welded with torsional stress, giving rise to the abrupt failure at one of the attachment points. I raise the possibility that many other roof racks on Interstates may now be attached to vehicles with sealant only.


Sincerely,


Paul
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:50 PM   #14
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... our tubular rack was welded with torsional stress, giving rise to the abrupt failure at one of the attachment points. ...
This is great information - thank you.

Could you provide a bit more detail please?

From your ID tile, you had a 2007 Interstate, and you live in the southern U.S. (geography can become relevant when we are assessing metal wearing and corrosion).

1. Which attachment point failed?

2. Was it only one? Upon inspection, what was the condition of the others that had not failed?

3. When did it fail?

4. How did you discover the failure?

5. Had you been using the roof rack for any specific purpose? Did you place any loading on it, even if minor? (Airstream specified a 100 lb. limit for those racks).

6. What did you do about the failed attachment point? Did you repair the attachment, or remove the rack, or just sell the Interstate, or what occurred?

TIA - these details will help us and other owners to determine an investigation decision tree.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:57 PM   #15
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Dear Interblog


Answers to your questions:



1. Which attachment point failed?



The passenger side rear attachment plate.


2. Was it only one? Upon inspection, what was the condition of the others that had not failed?


Yes. Only one failed completely, and the plate lifted 3/4", breaking the sealant, and allowing water to enter through the three holes in the Van's roof. The other three plates were still attached to the roof with unbroken sealant. After I removed the sealant from the three remaining plates for inspection, the rivets were loose in the holes. The sealant did not appear to be compromised at these plates.


3. When did it fail?



We drove to Nevada in June of 2019, and the failure occurred on our return trip back to NC. Our Interstate has 115,000 miles.


4. How did you discover the failure?


The rain water on my leg was the first indication of something being out of sorts. When we got home, I inspected the roof with a ladder and identified the problem. The leak was fixed by filling the holes in the roof. When not in use, our Interstate stays under a covered structure. We did not encounter rain until Arkansas on our return, so the failure could have occurred much earlier on that trip, or on previous rain-free trips.


5. Had you been using the roof rack for any specific purpose? Did you place any loading on it, even if minor? (Airstream specified a 100 lb. limit for those racks).

Nothing was added to the rack.


6. What did you do about the failed attachment point? Did you repair the attachment, or remove the rack, or just sell the Interstate, or what occurred?


A slight bit of rust was present at all 12 holes; i.e., about 1 to 2 mm of rust extended outward from the the inside circumference of each hole. The holes didn't appear to be much larger that 3/16" in diameter. The aluminum rivets that had not pulled at three of the plates showed some wear and were loose in the holes. Apparently, the steel roof did not play well with the aluminum rivets.


I removed the rust with a Dremel tool, masked the 4" by 4" roof area were each plate had been attached, and then sprayed the 4 areas with zinc priming paint. After drying for two days, I then covered each area with a thick coat (around 1/4") of self-leveling sealant to fill the holes and cover the plate area. It may not be pretty, but I got rid of the rust, and upon testing, the roof does not leak.

The rack has been removed.

Sell my baby, NEVER!!



Paul
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:37 AM   #16
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...I may not have emphasized my main concern in my previous post adequately...
...
It wasn't you - it was me. This had been my bad for not seeing your initial post as thoroughly as I should have. I was on the road for part of this thread, and I'm still having trouble with the Air Forums logins if I'm not at home. The forum developers have not worked the bugs out of this system (it's discussed on other threads). I have been getting the "too many redirects" error, and I sometimes miss important content when I am prevented from logging in.

Your broken attachment point is at the same location as where I'm suspecting my leak might be originating. And I had reached that preliminary conclusion BEFORE I properly read your statements.

^^ Take note, everyone - this is the latest example of exactly why we do forum threads - because there's a good chance that the knowledge is already out there somewhere, and that it'll come to light if we talk about it.

And, on the larger topic - more shoddy work on Airstream's part. Lovely. We will have more to say about how we are going to deal with this roof rack issue over the long term.

Incidentally, we forward-pitched our solar panels out of an abundance of caution, not knowing how strong that roof rack was (all we knew was that Airstream stated a 100 lb. limit in the user's manual, and our panel array is about 85 lbs.).

In other words, the leading edge is lower than the trailing edge, so that, while driving, the panels won't act as a sail, pulling up from the roof. There's a downward component of force placed on the rack because of this configuration. It's subtle, but it's there. You can see it in this low drone view:

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Old 11-21-2019, 09:11 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RossFam05BH View Post

2. Was it only one? Upon inspection, what was the condition of the others that had not failed?


Yes. Only one failed completely, and the plate lifted 3/4", breaking the sealant, and allowing water to enter through the three holes in the Van's roof. The other three plates were still attached to the roof with unbroken sealant. After I removed the sealant from the three remaining plates for inspection, the rivets were loose in the holes. The sealant did not appear to be compromised at these plates.


Paul
One more question Paul... was the rack mechanically damaged in any way? did it appear that any of the tubing was deformed, dented, or bent? Were any of the welds fractured or otherwise compromised?

I'm just curious whether it was a bad jig weld-up that the factory used and shouldn't have, or over the years a tree branch or some other insult happened that might have bent or pulled the rack out of square, plumb, and level?

My rack seems to be perfectly square and flat, and when I re-caulked mine, I hadn't seen any deformation on it or any problems with the fasteners at all.

Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks!

Roger
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:15 AM   #18
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Good questions, Roger.

My prediction: Hell will freeze over before the roof rack itself deforms. It appears to be ADA-compliant stainless steel, and it is about a hundred times stronger than the sheet metal to which it is attached. Literally.

We haven't discussed this in any thread recently, but it has always been a source of fascination to me as to why and where Airstream sourced that stuff. AFAIK, it exceeds the specs for the material from which they manufacture grab bars in handicapped toilets and showers (for openers, it's a half-inch larger in OD than much of it).

Why such high-quality material?! There are about a zillion ways to create a cheaper roof rack. Yet Airstream made this expensive choice, but then attached it in a questionable manner. There's no logic to it that I can see, unless they got fire sale prices on the stock.
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Old 11-21-2019, 02:41 PM   #19
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Good questions, Roger.

My prediction: Hell will freeze over before the roof rack itself deforms. It appears to be ADA-compliant stainless steel, and it is about a hundred times stronger than the sheet metal to which it is attached. Literally.

We haven't discussed this in any thread recently, but it has always been a source of fascination to me as to why and where Airstream sourced that stuff. AFAIK, it exceeds the specs for the material from which they manufacture grab bars in handicapped toilets and showers (for openers, it's a half-inch larger in OD than much of it).

Why such high-quality material?! There are about a zillion ways to create a cheaper roof rack. Yet Airstream made this expensive choice, but then attached it in a questionable manner. There's no logic to it that I can see, unless they got fire sale prices on the stock.
Well, I concur. I suspect they chose it for looks and no other reason. It's not really useful as a roof rack, other than as you've done, to attach solar to. On my coach the AC unit sits dead center, so I couldn't even really do that. It may act as a FOD deflector/cow catcher for the AC unit, I suppose, but there again, there'd be a LOT better ways of doing that as well. No I suspect it was a nice cosmetic touch to complement the lines of the coach. And it does... it was just a very expensive, not-so-practical way to accomplish that. There's that pesky "practical" again.

And I'm guessing that in Paul's case, his rack was a bad weld-up and Airstream used it anyway; NOT of course, that sort of thing has ever been done by Airstream before... *sigh*
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:14 AM   #20
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Not sure where your antenna and awning wires enter, but the plastic plate covering that entry point was the source of our leak. The plate is covered by about 1/2 tube of caulk. It was removed and replaced (again with 1/2 tube of caulk) at JC and the leak went away. The leak was sensitive to orientation - did not leak with nose up, only with nose down.
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