No Longer Own an Interstate

[sleeptite]

So glad to see this forum is not strictly limited to AI vehicles; there are certainly others out there that strongly compete with the AI, and I appreciate hearing about the deliberations many of us go through when choosing which RV to buy.

In my mind, the competition at this level is between three manufacturers:
1) Airstream,
2) Roadtrek, and
3) Advanced RV.

I feel I know the AI fairly well from this forum. I am learning more about the RT from this thread. How 'bout the Advanced RV? It's about as custom as you can get: they will do anything you want, and offer lots of eco-friendly and non-propane options. Have any of you looked seriously at ARV? The upsides to ARV are:
1) Total "customizability"
2) you order direct from the factory, no middleman/dealer

Downsides:
1) mass production lowers costs, and custom implies higher cost
2) factory-direct means no dealer network; not sure what how work under warranty would be handled if you don't live within a day's drive of Cleveland OH.

Your thoughts?

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by sleeptite

So glad to see this forum is not strictly limited to AI vehicles; there are certainly others out there that strongly compete with the AI, and I appreciate hearing about the deliberations many of us go through when choosing which RV to buy.

In my mind, the competition at this level is between three manufacturers:
1) Airstream,
2) Roadtrek, and
3) Advanced RV.

I feel I know the AI fairly well from this forum. I am learning more about the RT from this thread. How 'bout the Advanced RV? It's about as custom as you can get: they will do anything you want, and offer lots of eco-friendly and non-propane options. Have any of you looked seriously at ARV? The upsides to ARV are:
1) Total "customizability"
2) you order direct from the factory, no middleman/dealer

Downsides:
1) mass production lowers costs, and custom implies higher cost
2) factory-direct means no dealer network; not sure what how work under warranty would be handled if you don't live within a day's drive of Cleveland OH.

Your thoughts?

If you want more info on ARV go to these to forums:
Advanced RV - Sprinter-Forum

General Discussion Forum • Class B RV and Camper Van Discussion Forum

ARV isn't as customizable as you might think. They only have one basic floor plan layout with a choice of beds; twins or lounge in the rear. However they do offer a wide variety of finish material on the inside.

[Bikerbill]

And while mass production MAY lower costs, what I have found and not posted online YET is that Roadtrek is also cutting some corners on fit and finish.

And my new RT has been at a Mercedes dealer since the 18th awaiting problem repairs with the DEF system. Some reports are that it involves the RT shop doing something to the DEF tank and or lines but we don't know that for sure yet.

As for repairs to custom ie: Advanced vs RT or AI. Basically the equipment they install is purchased and available to many in the RV industry. Once you are beyond warranty anyone can probably fix it. What I am awaiting to see is the RT E-trek that I bought comes with a 6 year warranty--excluding the Mercedes chassis. But its still not clear what that really means. Will RT replace any or all the batteries during the 6 years? They did say that things are "covered" for the 6 years and nothing says anything about pro-rated by the 6 years. As they say, the jury is out on this one.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Bikerbill

And my new RT has been at a Mercedes dealer since the 18th awaiting problem repairs with the DEF system. Some reports are that it involves the RT shop doing something to the DEF tank and or lines but we don't know that for sure yet.

That could have something to do with the eTrek using the engine as a de facto generator. Diesel generator engines are subject to a phenomenon called "wet stacking" when run for prolonged periods of time at low rpms (such as idling, even "fast" idling) to charge the batteries. Basically it is incomplete combustion of the diesel fuel. Wet stacking does unpleasant things to exhaust chemistry, which also can have an effect on your DEF system, which is basically a diesel version of the automotive catalytic converter.

Automotive diesel engines such as the Mercedes Benz turbo-diesel normally aren't subject to wet stacking, but that's because they're not run at low rpms for prolonged periods of time; rpms vary as you drive. Roadtrek, by using the engine as a generator, has changed the operating regime and so it might be subject to wet-stacking just like any other generator.

This is all just informed speculation, but as a working hypothesis it does hang together pretty well.

[73shark]

I read someplace that the MB 3.0L w/ the "fast idle" option can idle for a specified period of time (which I can't remember) w/o any problem. It may have been in the RT E-Trek brochure.

[Bikerbill]

Our problems with the MB DEF system have nothing to do with idling time. Since we owned it we have not had a chance to sit and idle. FYI its been at the MB shop since the 18th. Every day or so they order another part or control unit for the DEF and its many varied systems. Nothing has been confirmed and another part arrived today and hopefully they will get to the bottom of the issue.

[Tomzstream]

I guess I can weigh in as well since I am both an AS trailer owner, and a RT CS owner. Mine is a standard length conventional CS with propane and an ALDE hot water/heating system. I generally camp with electricity so E-Trek was not a priority for me, and to tell the truth,I am waiting for the technology to advance a bit before making that investment. I went with a non-solar equipped unit for now. When I do decide to go solar, I trust that a retrofit will be easily done and the reduced cost of components over time will more than compensate for any additional labor cost over equipping new.

In particular, RT is now testing Lithium Ion batteries. If you follow solar technology as I do, you may be aware that Solar City is now marketing purpose built home storage battery packs branded by their sister corporation, Tesla. I see no reason why these won't be adaptable to RVs as well. Besides the significant weight advantage, the batteries are much more versatile and capable of nearly full discharge and recharge cycles unlike conventional wet cells. Many of you also know that solar panels are becoming more efficient and cheaper at the same time. Being patient for this technology to mature only seems prudent.

As far as generators go, I am OK with an ONAN propane unit for now, but find it hard to justify the added weight and maintenance requirements (running an hour a month to satisfy the warranty requirements). I look forward to ditching it at some point. Not a big fan of diesel generators either.. as I prefer sustainable/renewable solutions for the long term. I will likely keep the propane as I do like cooking with gas and sometimes use a grill outside. The ALDE can run on either gas or electricity. The fridge is electric only and is quite different from what is offered in the AS, but I like it and it is very quiet (and large!) I do have a portable induction cooktop for inside use.

Other than that, we are very happy with our unit and have had no DEF or Chassis issues to date. I did wait for the 2014 chassis to get all of the safety upgrades and am glad I did. Blind Spot alone is worth the added premium of buying new. I appreciate the natural cherry wood cabinets that some consider old school, but to me, they add an air of fine craftsmanship in an otherwise "plastic" world. To Each their own.

One or two last comments about our comparison to AS, we were dissatisfied with the existing floor plans offered by Thor and in particular the arrangement of the microwave and fridge. Even the Grand Tour left us wanting. We love the CS. And when we sat in the AS second row seats, we noticed the seat bottom was appreciably shorter than the front seats as well as the single second row seat in the CS which is full sized. Important if you are transporting adults IMO.

[dznf0g]

Re. LION batteries for RV use: (My knowledge base comes from automotive use, but applies to all LION batteries)

For the longest life of the batteries, a LION should not be charged above 80% of it's capacity and not lower than 20% of its total rated capacity. However one needs to know if the manufacturer is marketing a total capacity spec, or has accounted for this in their specs.

For RV use, I would see the need for a new line of converters and solar charger controllers that specifically address LION charge routines. I haven't researched it, but I imagine there may be solar controllers out there, but has anyone heard of RV converters with a LION charge routine?

LION is still expensive, and I believe will become somewhat outdated with the newer Lithium Phosphate (brain fart alert....I think it's LIPO) technology that is beginning to emerge. I hear rumblings that the newer technologies are not only more energy dense, but also cheaper. I have no training yet on the charge routines on LIPO.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

LION is still expensive, and I believe will become somewhat outdated with the newer Lithium Phosphate (brain fart alert....I think it's LIPO) technology that is beginning to emerge. I hear rumblings that the newer technologies are not only more energy dense, but also cheaper. I have no training yet on the charge routines on LIPO.

LiFePO4, Lithium Iron Phosphate. Mastervolt has LiFePO4 systems for marine use, so RV use can't be far behind. The biggest problem is the cost; a single battery can cost as much as $2,900, and of course you can't just get the battery, you need the whole system, complete with inverter/charger, charge controller/shunt, distribution panel, and status display, with all components using Ethernet LAN connectivity to intelligently monitor the system status.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

LiFePO4, Lithium Iron Phosphate. Mastervolt has LiFePO4 systems for marine use, so RV use can't be far behind. The biggest problem is the cost; a single battery can cost as much as $2,900, and of course you can't just get the battery, you need the whole system, complete with inverter/charger, charge controller/shunt, distribution panel, and status display, with all components using Ethernet LAN connectivity to intelligently monitor the system status.

Thanks, Pro, I am wondering if that is the chemistry in the 2016 Volt. It won't be announced until next month at the LA auto show, but it appears there is a new batt in the Volt that is smaller (allowing for 5 passenger seating??), more energy dense (longer range, even with a smaller package), and CHEAPER than the current LION.
We'll have to wait and see, but that is the scuttlebutt.

I am sure that some sort of LI battery and charge system is in my future, before I hang up the RV lifestyle, but that $2900 is going to have to be closer to $500 (today's dollars) before I change out.

[Tomzstream]

Great discussion! A little off topic but lets indulge. Any of the latest and greatest technologies will always cost more than the prior generation with the exception perhaps of solar panels. One of the reasons I decided not to have any solar to start with was exactly that... no need to replace incompatible charging systems etc. When I do make the leap,it will be for the long term, just as I did my rooftop solar system for my house.

Per the charging limits, I believe Tesla builds that into their systems. I expect the home base to have the same. For example, the drivetrain for the Mercedes B-Class EV has a Tesla system that by default only charges to 80%. There is an "option" for extended range that basically ignores the 80% and uses the reserve battery capacity and is designed for "occasional" use.

One of the things that RT considers a value add and proprietary, is in fact this system level engineering including things like the engine mounted generator and charging systems. I'd rather go with a commodity based approach.

As far as newer designs go, these will take time to ramp up and have costs come down. The strategy that Tesla uses is to build a bank of cells from basic commodity batteries (Panasonic) and thus reduce costs significantly. We'll see how soon they adopt any newer chemistry. BTW, this is the same strategy that Elon Musk uses for the SpaceX Falcon series rockets... Multiple units strapped together in varying configurations. On my home system, I utilize micro inverters (enphase brand) to eliminate the single point of failure inherent in older single inverter systems (they come with a nifty internet enabled monitoring system called Enlighten). Not sure this at all appropriate for storage (I have a 100% grid tied system), but I would look to Solar City to see how they implement the Tesla storage solution.

Also very interested in Multi-Purpose storage solutions ala tapping an EV's storage for other uses such as powering an RV while boondocking... Having an EV as a toad could be a way to defer costs of having two separate dedicated storage systems...

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by sleeptite

So glad to see this forum is not strictly limited to AI vehicles; there are certainly others out there that strongly compete with the AI, and I appreciate hearing about the deliberations many of us go through when choosing which RV to buy.

In my mind, the competition at this level is between three manufacturers:
1) Airstream,
2) Roadtrek, and
3) Advanced RV.

I feel I know the AI fairly well from this forum. I am learning more about the RT from this thread. How 'bout the Advanced RV? It's about as custom as you can get: they will do anything you want, and offer lots of eco-friendly and non-propane options. Have any of you looked seriously at ARV? The upsides to ARV are:
1) Total "customizability"
2) you order direct from the factory, no middleman/dealer

Downsides:
1) mass production lowers costs, and custom implies higher cost
2) factory-direct means no dealer network; not sure what how work under warranty would be handled if you don't live within a day's drive of Cleveland OH.

Your thoughts?

I am one of the soon to be Advanced RV owners, or I should say owner just waiting for mine to be finished. I can probably answer any question now.

They are not totally customizable in the sense you can build any floor plan you desire such as Sportsmobile touts. They have a basic plan. The Genesis of that plan came first from a Pleasure-way Plateau and then the Great Wes Van Legend, the two Class Bs the CEO of ARV owned before starting his company. Yes, an owner with real RV experience. By luck and coincidence those were the exact same two RVs that I owned in the past (as well as an Airstream trailer). So the basic plan part was familiar to me and not a stretch to know if it would work out. I knew about Advanced RV before it actually became a company but didn't pull the trigger to buy one until 2 years after.

You do deal directly with the company. There is no dealer network. I am in weekly communications with the CEO as well as many of the staff be it about cabinetry design, electrical, finishes, ideas or whatever. I've chronicled my progress with ARV in the ClassBForum.com and the Sprinter-source.com forums with a thread called Advancing Alvar. Those threads pretty much cover the process. Each message thread kind of takes on a course of its own.

Most customers have been farther than a day's drive away as we are. Warranty work is simple. Any RV dealer/service center can do warranty work and Advanced RV will make direct arrangements with the dealer. It is not a kick it out the door and let a dealer make adjustments. My ARV will be finished a week before I pick it up so they can thoroughly check it out. Then when I pick it up I will spend at least a couple of days at the factory going over everything with them before driving away.

A Class B is not built "mass production" style by anyone. It is kind of a put one leg on at a time process in that the converters are forced to build inside a van. In watching the numerous videos Roadtrek has produced the B doesn't get built much differently. However, with ARV a lot more goes into it at every phase of the work. When it comes to quality there is no comparison. If you are worried about the cost, when you get into the stratosphere of $150,000 for a B you can be penny wise and pound foolish as the saying goes. If you go piece by piece in comparison there is no difference in price I can see. But, I am getting exactly what I want and not a palette of standards, options and finishes available on a check list in a brochure. I'm not getting anything I don't want but will reluctantly rip out or modify after taking ownership.

Finishes are interesting. There are 24 Mercedes Benz exterior colors. That is the choice, not just black, white or silver or a short palette of a half dozen or so. There are no combinations of two or three interior color combos that happen to be the trend of the year. You build your own MB cargo van order from everything offered by MB.

ARV allows you to select your own curtain, upholstery, cabinet, countertop. wall, ceiling, trim and flooring. They have suggestions but most make their own choices that I have seen so far. Some I would never like. The downside of that of course, is I will have to live with my choices and I don't expect others to agree with them. Going from samples to a finished product can produce surprises good and bad. There will never be an identical B to mine unless a new customer sees it and says they want it too.

Technically, ARV is cutting edge. I am getting 800ah of LiFePO4 batteries and 480 watts of flexible solar panels, both of which are custom designed systems. I will not have a generator or propane. The second under hood engine alternator is their standard. Heating and hot water will be supplied by an Espar diesel fired system. The CEO of ARV started that trend with his semi customized Great West Van Legend being the first and it has been in every ARV. One thing no Sprinter RV manufacturer can provide in North America is the VB Air Suspension system. You have to drive one to understand how much of a difference it makes. ARV offers it. I'm getting it.

Now for the custom part. The plan is pretty much standard but there are many things you can change. No, you are not going to move the bathroom but I understand one customer is going to get a composting toilet which will make for quite a bit of modification. I have extensively redesigned the wardrobe cabinet behind the driver's seat. I did my own CAD drawings to convey my desires.

In the back they have built with the tri-fold sofa and twin bed configurations so far for customers. The twin beds have taken on many different interpretations as I have yet to see two alike. One had two custom dog kennels built underneath. One for a New York musician had a speaker system probably like no other in an RV, or at least a Class B. But stay tuned. You ain't seen nuthin' yet. I have put a lot of work on mine.

They don't send out Advanced RVs on a 9 day production schedule ala Roadtrek. I ordered my MB cargo van May 4th, it arrived September 11th and won't be finished until February 6. Part of that is because I wanted a 2015 chassis. Part is because of the extensive design collaboration and testing we have been going through, and part is I didn't want to rush development as I knew of some technical things coming online. And, I didn't need it until February.

Now the bad news. If I have tweaked anyone's interest it appears if you want an ARV today you probably might not expect delivery until the summer of 2016. They are that backed up. They have no intention to cut cost, process, or quality to deliver what they want to be the best. ARV is for people that don't want to settle for less. This will be my third Class B RV and I decided I was not going to compromise because something was the best I thought available at the time. That's what I thought the first two times and it ultimately wasn't good enough. I'm not saying there will never be a fourth. Design doesn't stop and I am already thinking about it.

There is a Facebook group that is open to read or join that has been chronicling the progress of ARV owners. It is called "B"ing in an Advanced RV.

[Boxster1971]

Davydd - thanks for sharing this insight on ARV.


- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[73shark]

Did you purchase this Sprinter yourself or have Advanced RV buy it? Just wondered if there was an advantage either way.

[Davydd]

Advanced RV orders it but you sit down with them and work up the order going to Mercedes Benz. It is your choice to load it up with options or not in such things like heated seats, fog lights, which engine (4 or 6 cyl) and all the safety features. There are some things Advanced RV will tell you what you need or don't need for the conversion. As I mentioned, the color is a big one. I went with graphite grey metallic along with factory glossy black wheels.

Advanced RV has ordered some vans on spec. One that went out just last week was selected by a customer after me but since it was available it got built ahead of ours.

[73shark]

Can they build one on a 2500 chassis? I've heard that they ride better than 3500.

[UKDUDE]

With the VB Air Suspension, the ride on a 3500 is way superior to even a 2500.
Incidentally, Davydd forgot to mention that Advanced RV is also building on the 4x4 version of the Sprinter van. A number of them have been ordered with customers putting down a deposit. This is another exciting direction to be taking since many of us are interested in dry camping in true wilderness areas.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by 73shark

Can they build one on a 2500 chassis? I've heard that they ride better than 3500.

I can't answer for Advanced RV but I suspect they would say no. They have stated they are only interested in converting 3500 RB and EB Sprinter vans. If you know your history most of the B converters initially tried building on the 2500 chassis with the NC3V Sprinter and all abandoned them almost immediately. It is simple math. B converters build on the 3500 because it has a GVWR of 11,030 lbs. A 2500 GVWR is 8,550 lbs. The problem is people who have weighed their Class B converted Sprinter Bs have reported anywhere from 9,400 to 9,900 lbs. Clearly the 2500 is not up to it in load capability.

I had a 2500 T1N Sprinter and I had the NC3V dually. I am not sure where you got that a 2500 rides better. Mercedes Benz is now compensating the 2500 with crosswind assist technology which they find not necessary on the 3500 chassis. My experience is a 3500 dually chassis gives a much more stable ride. The VB Air Suspension is going to make it all the better. It takes out the sway and side to side bounce on turns and it smooths out the bumping and jarring of the rear end.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by UKDUDE

With the VB Air Suspension, the ride on a 3500 is way superior to even a 2500.
Incidentally, Davydd forgot to mention that Advanced RV is also building on the 4x4 version of the Sprinter van. A number of them have been ordered with customers putting down a deposit. This is another exciting direction to be taking since many of us are interested in dry camping in true wilderness areas.

Advanced RV put out a news release that they are developing what they call their EcoRanger model, a 4 x 4 Sprinter. In anticipation they reserved an order for 20 of them to convert. I thought about it briefly but realized my build delay would be all that much longer.

[FromDad]

I had a RT for over 10 years. Good luck dealing with them. I'll never own anything other than an AS again. Made a huge mistake switching.....the treatment I received was deplorable. When I wrote about my experience, my truth, at another site, they threatened a lawsuit. I learned a lesson. Maybe they have changed, hope so for your sake.