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Old 01-18-2018, 01:06 PM   #1
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Need some suggestions re Battery Box in '06 Interstate

Well, the battery in our "new to us" 2006 Interstate (center bath, rear lounge) bit the dust. Some of this is a "been there, done that" experience. We also have a 1979 AS trailer that had an old Univolt converter/charger that would murder batteries. It was eventually replaced with a Progressive Dynamics 3-stage unit (and a new set of batts) that improved things greatly.

Even though I had experienced the problem and found a solution before, it still was a major pain sorting through all the information out there to determine a solution path this time. Of course, I had to eliminate many, many complex and expensive options, and parse it down to a workable solution for me. Bottom line: I need a new battery, and new charging system to be able to use my T1N to go to a nearby campground, have heat and amenities for the night, and be able to get up in the morning to go fishing. Keepin' it simple. I have a Progressive Dynamics PD4655 converter upgrade (w/ optional remote pendant) and a LifeLine AGM battery GPL-27T on order from BestConverter.com (Thanks, Randy!).

So, the battery box (located behind the roadside rear wheel in this model) was in somewhat bad shape. I pulled it out and sent it off for sandblasting and powder coat. The box was loose, and the wet cell group 27 battery had not been secured, so things were a bit beat up. Also, there was no cover for the battery access point, so weather and dirt off the rear wheel had obviously entered the trailer. The first picture shows the location of the battery. The next is a closer view showing the fine craftsmanship used in this installation. Notice, there is no cover. It seems likely there was one at once, but I have no idea what it looked like. Finally, the third picture shows a closeup of the edge of the plywood exposed, and damaged by exposure to the elements. InterBlog has commented on this stupid shortcut used by AS installers on several occasions. What you can see is the flooring, then the plywood. Not too visible is the metal floor pan at the bottom.

Here is my plan. Please feel free to comment or offer suggestions for each step.
1) Paint the exposed edges with something. Should I just use House Paint, perhaps Oil Based? I could get some in that AS Grey. Or would bed liner paint be better. What else?
2) Reinstall Box. Will replace bolts with Stainless Steel, as the ones that came out were a little rusty. Will use fender washers to spread the load across more of the surface. Do you think I need to put something more substantial to spread the load? I've been eyeing strips of metal, thinking about using that. (It involves painting more stuff).
3) Install new battery. a) Will need to get some sort of battery tie down thing. Will go to Tractor Supply to try and source something. b) Terminals: Currently the negative side is a battery post clamp type. The positive sides (there are 2) are ring terminals that can either be secured over a battery bolt with a wing nut (as often seen in marine battery installations), or secured with a bolt terminal. Are there advantages/disadvantages? All three installations seem to work, but having a mix is not as aesthetic (maybe that's just me).
4) Fashion some sort of cover. There was nothing there when we got it. I cut a piece of luan plywood to fit over it. That would be a simple fix, but I better get it painted... Any other ideas?
OK, a long post. Looking forward to comments and ideas. Thanks!

Oh, I thought I'd leave you with a quote from a friend of mine who's in the solar energy business:
"Batteries don't just die, they are murdered."
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:29 PM   #2
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Insert some wood glue and use two aluminum (or steel) flat strips to sandwich everything well and let the glue do its thing... paint exposed wood with some enamel paint (not house paint) so it last more...you just want to seal it to avoid having it come apart again...

Others will chime in, but looks like you got pretty much everything covered with your approach.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:56 PM   #3
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Yeah, well, I may have commented several times on AS's unwise practice of leaving exposed plywood edges, but I've never set my blinky eyeballs on a case such as yours before. Holy frijoles. Other old-timer T1N owners with batteries in the rear - does yours also look like that?! I would check them if I were you. And reinforce the area if common sense so dictates (as it does here).

Most of the time, I use Sherwin Williams enamel oil-based paint because I usually have it around from other projects. It's very good at encapsulating and waterproofing but it's expensive - 26 bucks per quart (not gallon) in my area. I normally accumulate a few small projects so I can consume most of a new can at once because it doesn't have a good shelf life.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:13 PM   #4
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My 2006 is a rear sleeper, and the batter is under the passenger seat.
But when I installed a larger battery, I used an old inner tube to line the battery platform. Then used a strap to keep it all snug.
Perhaps some rubber around the battery to cushion it and keep it from moving?

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Old 01-20-2018, 09:18 AM   #5
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Some good suggestions, thanks all!

I've been spending my time, while we were experiencing sub-freezing weather, mulling over the prospect of how to get glue to seep into horizontal layers between the plywood plys. At first I was clueless, but of course this topic has been at least touched upon on the internet. The basic plan that is evolving is:

1) Attempt some sort of clean up of the exposed edges. Perhaps sanding, perhaps some light application of some cleaner like 409 or something. I don't really think I'll be able to make it look much better, but glue should stick better to clean stuff, right?

2) Probe the plys to see if I can get a putty knife or something between them. If so, perhaps I can open a bit of a gap between plys and get the glue to slide down the knife into the gaps. Or, perhaps I can use a syringe with a big bore needle to "inject" glue into the gaps. I have some of this sort of stuff from other projects, just not sure if "glue" has a consistency that would allow this. We'll just have to see.

3) Which brings us to the glue question. What kind would be best? I've seen Tightbond mentioned quite a bit on the web. Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue is waterproof for Exterior/Interior use. I'll have to see if it is available locally, and while I'm at it peruse the glue aisle of the local big box hardware store. I know Gorilla Glue is a popular glue, but my experience with it includes a problem with "squeeze out" (where excess glue is pressed out of the gap upon clamping). That is very difficult to clean up. Also, the glue seems to do a lot of bubbling, like it expands and squeezes itself out of gaps, I my thinking is to avoid that.

I've thought about epoxy, I have some left over from a boat building project. However, it's messy and doesn't have an easy clean-up option. Plus, with cooler temperatures it can take a while to set-up. OTOH, it's fluid enough that it does work with a syringe and needle for injecting into gaps. I'll keep that option open.

4) Clamping. I think I'll use a board on top. The bottom layer of the exposed edge is metal (at least I assume it is, better bring a magnet to check it) covered with undercoating should be rigid enough without reinforcement. I'll wrap the board with Saran Wrap to keep it from sticking if I get some glue above the flooring. I'll use several C-clamps on each edge. If I go with Tightbond, it's "water clean up" until it sets, so I should be able to deal with squeeze out with a damp rag.

5) I'll get some enamel oil-based paint for finishing the edges. Thanks for the heads up on what to use there.

The powder-coated battery box came out great! It's 49° now, with a high of 55° projected. Seems like that weather should work for getting started.
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Old 01-20-2018, 10:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckdave View Post
....
It's 49° now, with a high of 55° projected. Seems like that weather should work for getting started.
This is exactly the kind of wild weather swing that makes me VERY nervous. In short order, we (in Houston) transitioned from 20 to 30 degrees back to 70 degrees with full subtropical humidity resuming in our area.

When this happens, moisture condenses on EVERYTHING, including electrical components. There's just no getting around it. And then because of the high humidity, even after equipment is brought up to temperature equilibrium with the air, the condensation tends to persist because conditions work against evaporation.

Be careful working around electrical systems in any conditions resembling what I just described.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InterBlog View Post
Be careful working around electrical systems in any conditions resembling what I just described.
It will be a few days until the converter/charger and new battery come in. I'll just be doing carpentry, painting and battery box reinstall for a while anyway.
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Old 01-20-2018, 04:33 PM   #8
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Once I got my nose in closer to the battery box job I found things might not be as bad as they seemed at first.

First off, what appears in the picture to be severe delimitation of the plywood is not actually what's going on. The floor construction here is made up of layers. At the bottom is a metal pan, similar to what you see in the back of a pickup truck, kind of corrugated to give the pan some strength. Above that is a layer that looks kind of like roofing tar paper, a mat maybe 1/8" thick that I assume serves to cut down on noise and maybe give the floor a bit of insulation (?). Then, the plywood. Note, the plywood here is only 1/4" ply, but I suppose, since it's completely supported below by the metal pan it's strong enough. Finally, the top layer is the vinyl flooring.

So what with the pan having high and low areas, and the rest of the materials being relatively flat, there is naturally some gaps there. And between the mat and the plywood, the mat being flexible and following the contour of the metal pan, while the plywood is pretty flat. Finally, the vinyl, which in this case has worked it way free of the underlayment.

And I found a significant contributing factor to all this damage! I had forgotten, but the rear mud flap on this side is not in place. The PO included it in a box of miscellaneous stuff, and I haven't gotten around to reinstalling it yet (involves taking off the rear wheel to gain access to area to re-rivet or whatever seems appropriate to reattach). Without the rear guard, significantly more water and road crap would be thrown directly onto the battery box. Fixing this will be a new priority, and will help prevent future damage here.

So, to Plan B:
1) continue to sand the exposed edges to achieve a better edge, and to help clean for later painting.
2) get some vinyl flooring glue and re-attach the flooring in this area.
3) fill in some of the gaps with something... Bondo, perhaps? Something paintable, waterproof, quick, etc. This should give me a nice surface to paint before I reinstall the battery box.

Onward!
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:26 AM   #9
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IIRC, the mud flaps on ours are connected with hex-headed screws... and the more I think about it, the more I suspect that they might have been the self-drilling kind with the integrated neoprene washers.

It should be possible to re-install the missing flap without removing the wheel, I would think. But it might involve inserting yourself beneath the chassis. If that's the case, you might want to consider ramping (here is one example of a method).
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Old 01-21-2018, 07:31 AM   #10
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P.S. just for laughs...

Targeted advertising works so efficiently on this forum that the moment I pressed "submit", the referenced item was already showing in the ad tile to the right of the thread. The algorithms don't need any time at all to assemble the correct product references. Here's a screengrab of my view of that comment above, with the aforesaid hex head adjacent to the text. Complete with price.


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Old 01-21-2018, 08:15 AM   #11
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Yup. And it’s still irritating and intrusive as ever. If I want something, I’ll search for it myself. Those ads either get tuned out totally, or laughed at because they are so far out of context....
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Old 01-21-2018, 09:54 AM   #12
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Thanks for the tip on the screws. I have some of those "in stock", so will bring some to the AS Warehouse to see if they will work. IIRC, I tried to fit the fender guard/mud flap in place right after we got the T1N and there was not sufficient clearance... but maybe I was thinking I would need different tools. I'll check it out.

We'll see what ads this generates.
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Old 01-24-2018, 08:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InterBlog View Post
IIRC, the mud flaps on ours are connected with hex-headed screws... and the more I think about it, the more I suspect that they might have been the self-drilling kind with the integrated neoprene washers.

It should be possible to re-install the missing flap without removing the wheel, I would think. But it might involve inserting yourself beneath the chassis. If that's the case, you might want to consider ramping (here is one example of a method).
My mudflap was held on with two allen-headed screws, two rivets and a slide-on spring thing that holds between the sheet metal and the plastic flap. I had to remove the wheel to gain access.

If you have not removed a wheel from a T1N, you are in for a treat. I had to use a 3 foot cheater bar to remove wheel lug bolts. Yes, I said bolts, it does not have nuts. That means when you go to replace the wheel, there is nothing to "hang" the wheel on and assist with lining things up. And that wheel is heavy. Finally, recommended torque is 170 ft lbs. That also requires a cheater bar on the torque wrench.

They make (and sell) an alignment tool to assist in getting the wheel re-mounted. It is simply a long stud you put into the wheel hub to hang the wheel on while you line things up.

Having that mudflap in place will seriously go a long way toward protecting the battery box.
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Old 01-24-2018, 12:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckdave View Post
...
If you have not removed a wheel from a T1N, you are in for a treat. ....
Ever notice how different people have different tolerances for different jobs? Generally my tolerance level is pretty high. I'll pull apart pieces of the T1N and be perfectly happy if I get sprayed with oil or wastewater or whatever. But I have a THING against wheels. Maybe someday I will get over it. Until that time, I'll watch OTHER people removing our wheels.

And yes, I could tell by the struggle that it's not an easy job. Plus, given that I had to have two tires stripped and re-valved in The Middle Of Absolute Nowhere, two of our nice wheels are all scuffed to pieces now (but I didn't blame the servicer because he otherwise did such a great job under demanding conditions).

Someone Else working on our two front wheels, with my general attitude reflected below it:

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Old 01-25-2018, 04:46 PM   #15
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I’ve pulled the wheels off my T1N- it seemed pretty straightforward and easy to me.
Of course, I have an air impact gun and floor jack etc. Plus my van has the BigFoot levelers, so I can just jack a whole side (or front or back) up with those and pop the wheels off in a few minutes. (I do use jack stands also).

I put antisize on the lugbolts- and even will put a little on the hub/wheel interface to keep rust from ‘locking on’ the wheel. Have to be pretty careful not to get too carried away with the antisize there and get on the brakes.

Of course, anything I use antisize it seems to get everywhere!
(I do hope I never need to change a tyre out on the road though- but I air up the spare regularly, just in case)

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Old 01-29-2018, 12:31 PM   #16
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I put antisize on the lugbolts- and even will put a little on the hub/wheel interface to keep rust from ‘locking on’ the wheel. Have to be pretty careful not to get too carried away with the antisize there and get on the brakes.
Mark,
I appreciate your comment and suggestion, however, my concern is that with anti seize the torque values would be compromised. Most torque values are for "dry" applications; when you add a lubricant that same torque value actually pulls the bolt longer than it would if the bolt were dry.

I took a brief spin around the internet on this, and opinions vary widely. I'm not an engineer, so my opinion could be wrong.

In my case, I believe the shop that previously mounted the wheels likely used an impact wrench, perhaps improperly. My reason for saying that is that some of the lug bolts seems to be on much tighter than others, and some seemed to be on too tight. Because of this, I went around to the other wheels and loosened the lug bolts and re-torqued them down to the specified 170 ft lbs.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:08 PM   #17
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duckdave

A brief update on progress with battery box and other things.

First off, this project is taking too long, like most I suppose. This one involved a bunch of trips to hardware stores, then to flooring companies, to gain materials and knowledge. Early, I noted that much of the apparent damage was not the plywood delaminating, as I first though, but was the vinyl flooring lifting up. I had assumed that the flooring was glued down. However, one very helpful flooring company person opined that the floor was more likely "floating" and just secured on the edges. Around the hole for the battery box, the floor was no longer secured, or water damage, exposure to the elements, etc. had caused it to lift and curl. She suggested I just try to secure it around the hole edges. What a great idea—so that's what I did. It was a two day job: first to do one side, with lots of clamps to hold it down, then the other side.

As I already mentioned, I sanded the exposed plywood to make the edges more cosmetic, and to clean up the wood surface. Then I applied two coats of oil based enamel (two more days, waiting for paint to dry). Below is an after cleanup picture.

It makes sense to me that there must have been a fancy cover over this battery access point that would have hidden the poor craftsmanship of the hole, covered the edges of the flooring, and provided a lid for the battery. Does anyone have a picture of what that might have looked like?

Also, note (again) that the metal at the bottom is not flat. It has a pattern of ripples in the pan, probably to give it strength. Like the floor of a pickup truck bed. I'm thinking I want to keep as much of the elements from the road side out, to prevent them from coming into the battery box, or into the interior. To that end, should I put some sort of foam weatherstripping between the battery box and the metal floor, something that will conform to the corrugations in the pan? Again, I wonder about the original install—wouldn't they want to keep the road debris out? What was there originally?

OK, I've also been working on the other end of the battery cables, installing a new Converter/Charger. I chose the Progressive Dynamics PD4655VL Upgrade kit. It essentially replaces the "guts" of the old Paralax7655 (single stage) with a 3-stage charger. There's a great write up of this here http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...es-162905.html. It's a challenge laying on the floor on your elbows in that 19" aisle trying to work with your hands (add two more days here). Almost done!
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:54 PM   #18
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Yes, the antisize will most certainly affect the torque value.
But I figure my torque wrench is likely off as much as the lube will change it anyway- so I’ve never worries about it.
I’ve been doing it for decades. No issues so far. I’ve never had a wheel come loose/off, never had a bolt/stud break, never damaged a wheel etc.

I’ll speculate more damage it done trying to remove it after extensive corrosion with the nut/bolt being installed for a long time. Complete speculation of course, but I’ve taken off bolts/nuts that were VERY hard to remove. I suppose to keep fully within design specs the bolts/nuts would be replaced every time and the threads cleaned each time. Heck, if I change wheels on the road I won’t even have a torque wrench. And I’ll bet the tyre store won’t look up the specs either.

Not to take away at all from your comment- you are completely correct.

Mark
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:12 PM   #19
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I spoke with a friend who worked in the "hi-end" automotive repair industry for some years, and he was in agreement with you. He said they always put a dab of anti-seize on all lug bolts they accessed. So, you pays your money and takes your chances. Thanks for your feedback. I'm on the fence now.
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Old 01-30-2018, 06:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckdave View Post
...

...To that end, should I put some sort of foam weatherstripping between the battery box and the metal floor, something that will conform to the corrugations in the pan? Again, I wonder about the original install—wouldn't they want to keep the road debris out? What was there originally?

OK, I've also been working on the other end of the battery cables, installing a new Converter/Charger. I chose the Progressive Dynamics PD4655VL Upgrade kit. ...
Good question on that first one. Maybe someone will post a photo. I can't quite picture the box or how tightly it will fit, but it sounds like an application that would lend itself to a Sikaflex 221 final finish on the outside (underside), after you've found a way to deal with the corrugations. The debate goes back and forth on which caulk is best, but for an underside application in particular, I would choose the Sikaflex (whether 221 or I believe someone posted somewhere that there was a next-gen version of that formulation).

You've hopefully made a good choice on your converter/charger upgrade. Not knowing any better, we had originally gone from the OEM single-stage Parallax to a brand new multi-stage Parallax which promptly proceeded to burn out and danged near set our van on fire (thread). My lack of trust in Parallax products generally was one of the reasons why we began the lithium upgrade process soon thereafter.
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