Lithium Batteries?

[galvestongrl]

Has anyone actually replaced their AGM batteries with Lithium batteries?

We are about to purchase once again a pair of Lifeline AGM and they are expensive. We know lithium are WAY more expensive, but maybe it's a break even proposition if we keep ruining our batteries by letting them get too low.....

Thanks for any help - it is amazing how much more we've learned from you all on the forums than we've gotten from all the books that came with the Interstate!

[AWCHIEF]

There is at least one person here that had, cost thousands of dollars for all the parts and pieces required. Personally I cannot justify the extreme cost at this time.

[nrgtrakr]

There are a few threads, an example:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f449...es-135426.html
This one includes solar.
But what I'd be curious about, and I think that's also what you're asking is, simple replacement - no extras.
Doing a simple investigation the first thing I noticed is it's difficult to find batteries of the same dimensions - close, but not the same.

[kscherzi]

AM Solar has a good education page here http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/smar...batteries.html

It looks to me to be more cutting edge than I'm prepared to go for at this time. Cost is pretty high too.

[Boxster1971]

I did a lot of research on upgrading to lithium batteries. In the end I've decided to stay with AGMs. To convert to lithium requires more than just new batteries. It requires a whole system upgrade for charging, heaters if you plan to be in freezing temps and battery monitor systems to prevent damage to the lithium batteries. I think they are great, but not as an upgrade to my Interstate. Maybe they will be in my next B-van if I ever buy another one.

Lewster who is on this forum can probably say more about them as he installs them.


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[Boxster1971]

Oh - I forgot to mention you can solve all your battery problems by upgrading to at least 200 watts of solar and a good controller.


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[lewster]

I've been installing a lot of AM Solar's lithium batteries this summer....from 200 amp/hours to 600 amp/hours. Their usable capacity is far greater than AGMs, including starting and running a 15K roof A/C for almost 3 hours solely from a 400 amp/hour battery pack and 3000 watt sine wave inverter. Add to that the significant decrease in weight and size, the fact that they do not need complete re-charging to 100%, have no charge memory and their lightning fast re-charge and significantly increased amp draw capacity.

They do come at a cost though......and that is above their increased buy-in price. You need to have the proper charging systems for lithiums, which in our systems include solar with Blue Sky MPPT programmable charge controllers and a Magnum sine wave inverter/chargers (minimum MS-2012).

Will pricing drop soon? That is a question that is difficult to answer.The supply pipeline for new lithium cells is still greatly restricted due to their huge demand. Early adopters are getting the benefits of increased capacity at greatly reduced weight and a projected 5000+ charge cycles (approx. 15 years), but there are caveats; specifically: you can USE lithiums below freezing but can not CHARGE them below 32ºF for now.

This should not present a significant problem, as most RV use has interior temps well above freezing to prevent water system freeze-up and these batteries must be placed indoors and away from any moisture incursions.

Definitely a great leap forward......but at a price!

[Gsmblue]

Lew, a great and balanced post. Thank you!

[73shark]

Originally Posted by Gsmblue

Lew, a great and balanced post. Thank you!

Let me guess, you tried out for Richard Gere's role in Pretty Woman.

[Titus]

Here is a good link to read about a lithium battery trial.
Lithium Ion Batteries for RV Motorhome House System - LFP / LiFePO4 | Technomadia
More of a science project than I am interested in taking on at this time. But maybe after a few hundred of the rest of you have worked on the bugs for me...

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Titus

Here is a good link to read about a lithium battery trial.
Lithium Ion Batteries for RV Motorhome House System - LFP / LiFePO4 | Technomadia
More of a science project than I am interested in taking on at this time. But maybe after a few hundred of the rest of you have worked on the bugs for me...

I met Chris and Cherie at AM Solar last summer. They are definitely interesting folks. I would consider their lithium installation to be 'lithium 1.0' and the systems that we are now using to be 'lithium 2.0'. I say this because we now have many technical issues under control which allow for a more 'plug and play' type of installation.

The next level of lithium technology will be for all weather/all temperature use; meaning that they can be placed anywhere (like an AGM battery) and also be charged below freezing (they can be USED below freezing now, but should not be CHARGED below 32ºF).

I would guess that level is still several years down the road.

[UKDUDE]

Advanced RV install Lithium batteries as an option. In fact they have several different sized banks to choose from. They are encased in a heated, insulated and reinforced box hung where we have our generators. It's an expensive option, but probably worth it if you intend to keep the vehicle long-term.
I took a look at one belonging to a blogger known as Davydd when he and his wife visited this area. It looks like a very professional and well-thought out installation. Even has the ability to start the chassis engine automatically if the charge state gets below a given threshold. It has the optional secondary generator fitted to provide a quick charge.


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[73shark]

Originally Posted by UKDUDE

It has the optional secondary generator fitted to provide a quick charge.


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

Did his have the optional generator? If so, where do they put it?

I do remember reading his thread awhile back but don't recall.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by 73shark

Did his have the optional generator? If so, where do they put it?

I do remember reading his thread awhile back but don't recall.

I seem to recall it was actually a second alternator attached to the engine.

[73shark]

Sounds right. Thanks.

[graysailor]

I was all set to go with lithiums but have had second thoughts. I think for my needs Lifeline AGM will do the trick. With a good charging system and a solar panel or two the AGM's have quite a descent life span also.

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

I seem to recall it was actually a second alternator attached to the engine.

Yes, I had a brain malfunction.... I meant alternator - a Sprinter option.


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[LB_3]

I looked pretty seriously at the AM Solar lithium batteries just last week. I concluded that Lithium batteries don't yet make much sense on a class A where size and weight aren't of much concern but there is a valid argument for them in smaller class Bs where useable volume and weight are already at a premium.

In our case we have a single 100 AH AGM battery under the passenger seat which only provides about 50 usable Amp-hours since dropping below a 50% charge damages the battery. We've already switched all the lights over to LEDs so we don't have much more efficiency to squeeze out of our usage.

We don't have room for a second battery under the passenger seat and there is no convenient way to relocate or add batteries elsewhere so our only option for increasing capacity would be to increase energy storage densities. If a 200 AH LiFePO4 battery provides a true 200 AHs, then that is a 4x improvement over what we have now. At about $350 for a 100 AH AGM, that equates to about $1400 for 200 usable AHs. That gets us into the same pricing neighborhood as the LiFePO4 batteries. Add in the increased number of charging cycles and the built in auto cutoff circuits that eliminate the most common failure mode (over drained battery), and these fancy new batteries start looking like they have a place in our Interstates.

The hard part is convincing myself that after adding solar, I will still NEED 4 times our current battery capacity.

[InterBlog]

Hi, Galvestongrl. That's my husband above (LB_3). We live down the road from you (IH-45 and SH-96).

What the other posters said above makes sense to me. Your thumbnail indicates you have a newer model Interstate. For the reasons given, it doesn't seem to make sense in your case to do lithium at this point, UNLESS:

(a) you have a personal scenario for which it might be indicated (e.g., a medical need requiring greater electrical power reserves... for instance I have diabetic friend who goes to enormous lengths to ensure he always has multiple ways of making ice); or,

(b) you are hobbyist who, for the fun of it, simply chooses to allocate your disposable income to specialized projects such as that. (I am very familiar with this phenomenon... for instance my husband is hell-bent on putting air shocks on our T1N Interstate and is going to achieve that supposing he has to paddle a canoe to Europe and bring them back himself).

We haven't finished our analysis yet, but with our older Interstate for the reasons my husband noted (only one battery, no way to add a second, no existing solar), lithium starts to become a contender. Particularly if we can avoid the cost of solar, it might be a way to go. That is TBD.

[galvestongrl]

Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge on this topic. We have a 2013 Extended Lounge on a 2012 Sprinter – must be similar to Boxster1971’s. I thought we had 2- 100ah under the lounge when we picked it up in Dec. 2012, but we’re not sure if they ever worked. We were so new to all things RV we followed the outline in the owners manual and didn’t leave the Interstate plugged in – just plugged in every 30 days for a 48 hour period. At that time we didn’t know you were supposed to monitor the batteries so closely. The batteries were determined to be bad about a year ago and were replaced (at our cost). And these replacements are bad now and need to be replaced. This is over a period of only 2 ½ years now since we got the vehicle. The replacement batteries may have been damaged already when we bought them from our dealer. They were “barely used” from a trailer they had just received as a trade-in. Again, we didn’t know how much maintenance is required to keep these AGM batteries alive. We’ve now focused and learned a lot, mostly from these forums and reading the manuals on line.

The replacement batteries have turned out to NOT be 2-100 ah, but 2-80 ah. They are Lifeline and they fit perfectly in the tray that slides out from under the rear lounge. (Makes us wonder if we ever had 100ah sized batteries to begin with or not.)

We are trying to figure out if we can just drop in Lithium right now and worry about upgrading our solar later this year. We have a trip planned in October (the Grand Circle in Utah) and want to have batteries for it. Our Interstate came with the Magnum MM1212 inverter/charger with a Magnum ME-MR remote. I’ve spoken with Magnum tech support (very helpful) and tech support for Smart Batteries, Lithium battery people.

It sounds like the Magnum equipment that came with the Interstate will be “OK” with the lithium Smart Batteries. The lithium requires the Magnum to operate at Bulk 14.4V, Absorb 14.6V, and Float 13.6V. And these batteries come with a built in Battery Management system to keep them from overcharging, etc. But they are expensive. And the dimensions aren’t perfect to fit in our tray under the lounge. The 2-80ah we took out were 11.1” long by 6.6 wide by 9.3 high. The 11.1 dimension was snug. (I don’t see how Airstream put 2-100ah batteries (13.1” long) in that tray at the factory. I wish I had asked to see them when they were replaced at our dealer.) The Lifeline 100ah correlates well to Smart Batteries 100ah which is 12.75” long. So I think this company is trying to make their battery a direct replacement.
12V RV Batteries | Deep Cycle Lithium Ion Batteries | Smart Battery

But even if we get the 2 smaller Lithium 75aH, we could have 150 ah we could use instead of 2-80aH AGM that we can only use a portion of the 160 ah.

And if we’re right about being able to just drop these in, we would be paying $2000. for lithium vs. $600 for Lifeline AGM’s.

Hard to pull the trigger on the $2000. But if we somehow keep ruining the AGM’s……