Lithium Alternative - Goal Zero Yeti 3000

[J-Dog]

Originally Posted by swakyaby

......to running a hair dryer in the morning, and a CPAP machine at night.

A Goal Zero Yeti 150 will run your CPAP for two or three nights without charging. Not tried it with a hair dryer, I usually fire up the Honda generator for that while boondocking.

[Tronadora]

The relevant factoids from Goal Zero are in the red boxes I drew in the attached photo.

As you can see, the best case scenario for a full recharge is nine hours, or even down to SIX hours if you max out all its inputs. You can charge from 110V as well as solar panels at the same time.

Might end up adding a couple of flexible panels later this year. Flexible because money, weight and space will be at a premium once we are fully packed and full-timing it.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Just to further confuse the discussion, I haven't noticed anyone mention the losses/ ineffeciency of the conversion process (110vac to 12dc or vice versa).
There is ALWAYS some loss in any conversion. Especially in small, wall wart type, chargers/converters of the sort typically used for low current chargers.
If you can find, or measure, the input vs the output of these small chargers, you may find as much as 50% loss of power (watts) between in and out.
Just means that you can't count on getting the power output of any device getting through the conversion process to the next user/ device at the same power (watts) level. You gotta do the math, or measure the output at each step of the way.

9A at 110v = 990 w. out of any device won't yield anywhere near 990 w after conversion to 12 or 16v DC. ( BTW, it took more than 990 w at 12v DC to get her in the first place, if this is inverter output.)

NO FREE LUNCHES, HERE. Conversion cost something, every time.

Also, please remember, Li Ion and LiPo batteries require VOLTAGE limiting as well as current limiting during charging. Improper charging of Lithium batteries can cause fires. If you use any charge system other than the manufacturers recopmmended charger, you must make sure that their voltage and current limits are met..

Yeah, I didn't want to make the discussion any more complex than it was already, but you bring up a REALLY valid point that we should probably talk about, because the PWM controller built into the Yeti's is bad. How bad?

First, everyone who cares about conversion losses should watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpOgzUUQ6BE

Will is a pretty sharp kid, and he found that the conversion loss going through the PWM charge controller is over 40%!!!! That's huge, and is a LOT higher than I would have imagined.

The good news is GoalZero has since released their MPPT controller:

http://www.goalzero.com/ecommerce/product.i?pid=510

The beauty of this little beast is it comes with two 8mm direct-connect solar panel inputs and a APP input, and can pump 25A into the battery. The losses must be really low because GoalZero claims it will charge the Yeti 1000/1400/3000 up to 40% faster. Will measured the losses for the PWM inputs at roughly 44%, so that would make the MPPT input losses < 10% (putting some fudge factor in there for measurement variances, etc.). That's much more like what it should be.

So, if you want to minimize losses, regardless of how you intend to charge your Yeti 1000/1400/3000, I recommend you avoid the PWM inputs and just use the MPPT adapter (standard on the 3000, a $80 option for the 1000 and 1400, but I think well worth it).

Oh....one last comment (for now). As has been noted, presently GoalZero claims that charging the Yeti from your vehicle's 12v adapter will cause damage and isn't supported. In one of the Q&A's for the Yeti, GZ claims they are working on a cable to allow this, and it's "coming soon". This was posted a couple weeks ago, so I'm hoping they come up with something in the not-too-distant-future because there's a fat 25A cigarette outlet in the middle of the Sprinter dash just screaming to be plugged into the Yeti to charge it.....

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

. . .
GZ claims they are working on a cable to allow this, and it's "coming soon". This was posted a couple weeks ago, so I'm hoping they come up with something in the not-too-distant-future because there's a fat 25A cigarette outlet in the middle of the Sprinter dash just screaming to be plugged into the Yeti to charge it.....

Thanks for the update. Our Ford Transit van has a second such outlet by the rear doors, which would be a perfect location for a GZ.



Do you have a GZ link for updates on this?

Thanks

[Tronadora]

Submitted for your consumption:

Here is a YouTube video of GZ at CES 2018.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4SLp66CvzU&t=234s

At 4:45 she reveals the next model release will include USB-C ports and is wifi enabled so you can monitor and control(*) the device from your smart phone or tablet.

I had seen this video before I ordered and inquired about their claimed March/April time frame but was told it would be more like end of year for that. (or maybe that's what I was told so I would pull the trigger and help them deplete current inventory, so YOU can order the next model sooner I know how this works)

*control= turn on the 12V output section and/or the 110V output section.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thanks for the update. Our Ford Transit van has a second such outlet by the rear doors, which would be a perfect location for a GZ.



Do you have a GZ link for updates on this?

Thanks

No link, just this in the Q&A section of the GZ 400 Lithium:

Oscar a
· 14 days ago
Is there a cable available yet to charge the yeti with my cars 12v source?
1
answer
Answer this Question
♂

GoalZeroSupport
· 14 days ago
Thanks for reaching out to Goal Zero! Unfortunately not yet, we plan on releasing one soon! If you have any other questions concerning this please contact us by phone at 1-888-794-6250 or by email at support@goalzero.com Have a great solar day!

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Tronadora

Submitted for your consumption:

At 4:45 she reveals the next model release will include USB-C ports and is wifi enabled so you can monitor and control(*) the device from your smart phone or tablet.

Also, at the 2:50 mark, she claims they are going to allow daisy chaining with lead acid batteries (I assume that to mean SLA, AGM, etc) with the Lithiums.....

[OTRA15]

Thanks for the reply, the Q&A tab is at the bottom here for everyone's information:

http://www.goalzero.com/p/423/goal-z...-power-station

GZ email address noted. Thanks again.

Peter

[FlyFishinRVr]

@Tronadora - I was thinking about your transfer switch setup as I contemplate different ways to integrate the Yeti into the AS electrical system, and I think there's something you should be aware of. When you plug your Yeti into your coach via this new switch, the most you can supply to the coach is 12.5A AC. The lowest setting on your PCS (the Precision Circuits Power Control System) control panel is 20A AC. I don't think this will cause the PCS to do anything "odd", but it definitely won't help you in the event you try to pull too much current from the Yeti (i.e. it won't try to shed loads, etc). As a result, I think you'll be on your own with monitoring the power draw on your 3000.....

[Tronadora]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

@Tronadora - I was thinking about your transfer switch setup as I contemplate different ways to integrate the Yeti into the AS electrical system, and I think there's something you should be aware of. When you plug your Yeti into your coach via this new switch, the most you can supply to the coach is 12.5A AC. The lowest setting on your PCS (the Precision Circuits Power Control System) control panel is 20A AC. I don't think this will cause the PCS to do anything "odd", but it definitely won't help you in the event you try to pull too much current from the Yeti (i.e. it won't try to shed loads, etc). As a result, I think you'll be on your own with monitoring the power draw on your 3000.....

Yes... 12.5A... 1500W continuous... that is my understanding. You can accomplish the same thing with your new 1000 by running an AC cord into the side of your AI with the proper dogbone adapter.

So far, my dry camping test entailed having the Yeti provide power via 110V cord into the second txfr switch... my AI panel defaulted to seeing it as a 30A shore power which of course it's really not. If I have all lights running, plus the refer, plus the freezer, plus the furnace...it pulls about 330W-400W... plus or minus based on the cycling on and off of the appliances. And that included Absorb charging into the house batteries.

So I don't think I need to watch over things ... I could even run the Instant Pot while all that is going on. It's just a matter of how long do you want this second source of power to last. With the 3000 (2400Wh usable) I figure 36 hours (two nights) between shore power hookups is ideal without worrying about consumption. Three nights if I'm not using things like an Instant Pot but I'm guessing at this point. And if it's hot out, the refer and freezer will suck things down more rapidly.

As a reminder, if I want to run the microwave I unplug the coach from the Yeti to remove that load, and plug in my extension cord to the microwave and set the microwave to 70% power so it will stay on for more than a minute without shutting down. That power draw is close to the 1500W level, maybe a little higher.

Oh, and I did install that Onan resonator recently so I can now finally entertain actually using the generator within earshot of my camp neighbors. No miracles, but it takes the generator noise from being obnoxious down to just plain annoying.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Question for the Yeti-curious (you know who you are ):

How would you prefer to have the Yeti connected to the AI 12v power grid?
A) Always
B) Only when the house power is on
C) ???

[Tronadora]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

Question for the Yeti-curious (you know who you are ):

How would you prefer to have the Yeti connected to the AI 12v power grid?
A) Always
B) Only when the house power is on
C) ???

I want the AI to see the Yeti as a 12v battery bank... direct input. That way, no power conversion loss inside the Yeti as it creates pure sine wave 110v, where the AI converts it back to 12v for those things that run on 12v.

But to answer your question more directly, I like being able to manually turn on the Yeti front panel button and send juice into the AI through the extra transfer switch I had installed. But not everyone wants to install that, so in a perfect world, it would be nice for the house batteries to be used down to a Low Battery Cut Off level and then switch over to the Yeti seamlessly.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Tronadora

I want the AI to see the Yeti as a 12v battery bank... direct input. That way, no power conversion loss inside the Yeti as it creates pure sine wave 110v, where the AI converts it back to 12v for those things that run on 12v.

But to answer your question more directly, I like being able to manually turn on the Yeti front panel button and send juice into the AI through the extra transfer switch I had installed. But not everyone wants to install that, so in a perfect world, it would be nice for the house batteries to be used down to a Low Battery Cut Off level and then switch over to the Yeti seamlessly.

How about if the Yeti was "just another battery" in the house bank, and it would supply the AI inverter and/or charge the AGMs based on the position of it's Output switch? Output ON, Yeti is supplying juice to the AI (charging the AGMs, supplying some juice to the inverter, etc). Output OFF, Yeti is 100% isolated from the AI. Position of Main Disconnect doesn't matter. If you want to use the Yeti inverter, you can do that AND still supply current (up to 10A DC) to the AI. Everything is driven from the Yeti front panel. Sound good so far?

[Tronadora]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

How about if the Yeti was "just another battery" in the house bank, and it would supply the AI inverter and/or charge the AGMs based on the position of it's Output switch? Output ON, Yeti is supplying juice to the AI (charging the AGMs, supplying some juice to the inverter, etc). Output OFF, Yeti is 100% isolated from the AI. Position of Main Disconnect doesn't matter. If you want to use the Yeti inverter, you can do that AND still supply current (up to 10A DC) to the AI. Everything is driven from the Yeti front panel. Sound good so far?

You just got promoted to Project Manager !
No raise, just a title. New business cards are on the way....

[FlyFishinRVr]

By the way, the AC wall chargers get HOT when they're charging the Yeti, so I highly suggest not keeping them under the lid.

@Tronadora, have you tried plugging 2 AC wall chargers into the 8mm inputs on the MPPT controller? Curious if you see any difference in charge rate vs. using the other 8mm inputs. GZ claims up to a 40% improvement, but I don't know if that means from the PowerPole inputs and solar panels or if that includes the 8mm inputs.....

[Tronadora]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

By the way, the AC wall chargers get HOT when they're charging the Yeti, so I highly suggest not keeping them under the lid.

@Tronadora, have you tried plugging 2 AC wall chargers into the 8mm inputs on the MPPT controller? Curious if you see any difference in charge rate vs. using the other 8mm inputs. GZ claims up to a 40% improvement, but I don't know if that means from the PowerPole inputs and solar panels or if that includes the 8mm inputs.....

Any connection I've tried (8mm or APP) at the left side of the unit (the PWM side) yields about 62W per charger connection. Any connection through the MPPT expansion module at the upper right yields right about 72-75W per charger. So that's only about a 16-20% improvement. And a person can mix and match the connections if you don't wanna spend for the 4-into-1 8mm to APP combiner cable. You can put two 8mm connectors into the PWM side and two into the MPPT side.

I have the charger bodies laying close to each other but I did not bind them together to let em dissipate the heat. But I did bind all the cords to cut down on the clutter back in the "garage". I'll take a revised picture tomorrow.

[Tronadora]

Here's my wiring layout for the Goal Zero Yeti installation.

As a bonus, today I found a used Brompton folding bike... white and black to match the AI. The dirt mat provides cushioning under the folding chairs.

Almost packed and ready to go... can't wait to get going full time in May.

[iaqstuff]

So, you did away with the AGMs?

[Tronadora]

Originally Posted by iaqstuff

So, you did away with the AGMs?

I kept the AGM house batteries and run this as an auxiliary power source.

To summarize, for output I can either:
1) plug it into the coach via a second transfer switch and it becomes my silent generator, charging the AGMs and running the coach electrics as if I were plugged into a 15A wall outlet, or

2) run an extension cord to my microwave / coffeemaker / InstantPot / whatever, as needed. No need to start up the Onan generator or engine. There are also 4 outlets for USB charging of devices and a 12V cigarette lighter type of outlet. Maximum output is 1500W continuous, same as the Yeti 1000, and 1400 models.

To charge it back up, I can either:
1) Plug it into my coach's interior inverted 110V outlet, in which case it's getting juice from whatever is powering the coach (AGMs, generator, engine, shore power, and yes there will be power conversion losses), or

2) Plug it into shore power via 110V cord, or

3) Plug solar panels directly into it (up to 360W) via multiple 8mm plugs and/or an Anderson Power Pole connection. Their APP connection is a unique stacked configuration that is not normal... they want to sell you their solar panels. However, there is a THIN folding 100W panel made by GrapeSolar for $300 that has an 8mm connector. I might try one or two of those. That's more $ than roof mounted panels, but there's no labor, no adapters or cabling costs, and the thin folded size gives me options on where they get stored. I would only expect to get about 60-65W from one of those panels, and I saw one reviewer say they got less than that. But the convenience factor is huge.

**********
By having the second transfer switch I can avoid having a cord run outside for plugging into the side of the coach. By positioning the Yeti at the far left side of my "garage", it stays out of view when I only need to open the right hand cargo door to access my water hose and shore power cord. As further precaution, I'll try to always lay a towel over its face if I'm opening the left cargo door.

[iaqstuff]

Where did you put the second transfer switch or did you replace the battery disconnect with a two-way?