Lemon Law – 2014.5 Airstream Interstate

[Boxster1971]

Here are the batteries under my van and a shot of the racks under construction. The last photo is a shot of my roof full of solar panels. I also upgraded to a 2000 watt Magnum inverter installed in place of the old battery box under the lounge seat.









- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[Boxster1971]

Void

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Here are the batteries under my van and a shot of the racks under construction. The last photo is a shot of my roof full of solar panels. I also upgraded to a 2000 watt Magnum inverter installed in place of the old battery box under the lounge seat.

Very impressive, especially the cradle work. That's probably a very specialized build beyond the scope of most local RV engineers. Are they designed to hinge down as in the photo, or were just being installed at that point?

[John Millner]

Just an FYI. In two weeks loosing that small amount of battery power is negligible. When ny Interstate is fully charged at 12.8 within two weeks I'm down to 11.8, give or take. There are a number of power draws on those batteries. Unless they are totally disconnected they will drop. In my humble opinion you're lucky that the drop is so minuscule. Wanna trade?

[lewster]

Originally Posted by John Millner

Just an FYI. In two weeks loosing that small amount of battery power is negligible. When ny Interstate is fully charged at 12.8 within two weeks I'm down to 11.8, give or take. There are a number of power draws on those batteries. Unless they are totally disconnected they will drop. In my humble opinion you're lucky that the drop is so minuscule. Wanna trade?

Minuscule.…..REALLY???? Your batteries won't be giving you much service if you let them get discharged to that point (11.8VDC) on a regular basis. According to the Lifeline Tech Manual, you are effectively dropping their capacity to close to 20%: http://lifelineb.wpengine.com/wp-con.../12/manual.pdf

Pg. 30 of this manual shows a chart for battery State of Charge (%SOC) vs battery open cell voltage. It lists 11.9VDC as having a 25% SOC and 11.8VDC is even lower.

You are effectively killing your batteries by allowing them to reach this low level as a matter of practice. There is another graph further back in their tech manual that shows the relationship between battery SOC and the number of charge cycles (battery life) that one can expect.

At a 50% SOC, they list 1000 charge cycles, at 25% SOC (75% depth of Discharge): 600 cycles and for a 75% SOC (25% depth of discharge): 2500 cycles.

Lifeline expects, by virtue of their 5 year warranty and repeated exhortations to not bring your batteries below the 50% level on a regular basis, that you will get that 1000 charge cycles from your batteries. Allowing them to go to 11.8 VDC will get you between 2-3 years (if that) from the batteries…..maybe

[InterBlog]

As an aside, I like how Mike appears to have built his own wheel ramps. So far I have been using our Valterra stackers, and I like them and feel confident in their use, but I'd like a bit more loft for certain jobs. And top quality. The commercially-available truck ramp / riser options can get expensive. Automobile versions are cheap but their weight ratings are lower.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

Ok I admit...I'm 'lectric challenged, but is .3v in 10 days/.5v in 14 all that bad?

A lot of stuff never sleeps on todays vehicles.



Bob

Yep.

All modern vehicles suck battery when parked. It is the flip side of our affliction with gadgetittis.

Even my cell phone sucks battery when switched off.


Talis gentium ceciderunt.

[J. Morgan]

<<<<REALLY???? Your batteries won't be giving you much service if you let them get discharged to that point (11.8VDC) on a regular basis. >>>>

That is why I have an affinity to old fashioned (i.e. relatively cheap) lead acid batteries.

If I screw up and let the batteries discharge at some point, (and I will), the error is not a grievous and really expensive mistake.


Talis gentium ceciderunt.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

<<<<REALLY???? Your batteries won't be giving you much service if you let them get discharged to that point (11.8VDC) on a regular basis. >>>>

That is why I have an affinity to old fashioned (i.e. relatively cheap) lead acid batteries.

If I screw up and let the batteries discharge at some point, (and I will), the error is not a grievous and really expensive mistake.


Talis gentium ceciderunt.

What about those Hover----never mind.

Bob

[splyb]

Setting aside thread-drift, Coder is seeing the very tip of a much larger iceberg. He says:
"It's a long, slow, unpleasant process." Well, that's putting it mildly... and politely.

Lemon laws look great on paper. The reality is that manufacturers and dealerships work hand in glove to crush any such claim that comes along. One would think they would be anxious to make things right, but that simply isn't so. Even good-hearted service managers that would like to help have their hands tied by the chain-of-command's upper echelons who see each LL claim as a potential flood gate.

LL claims require owners to religiously maintain and regularly produce records so complete and detailed that the average owner simply doesn't keep them. The defense is well financed and will drag its feet and/or drown you in paperwork as needed. Never make the mistake of thinking that your dealership will "do the right thing" once you make your administrative claim or even file suit. Whether because they just don't care or whether they're being forced to shill for some dark, secret Darth Vader further up the food chain, makes little difference to the consumer. Either way, LL claims are a PITA and rarely as successful as they should be.

The current political environment does not bode well for this state of affairs. Heck, the new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was defunded and gutted before it was staffed. Your tax dollars at work, folks. The Chamber of Commerce crowd is winning by a landslide... and has been for the better part of the last 50 years.

All that said, if your LL case is to have any chance at all, document, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, right from the git-go, until you're blue in the face. Write down everything that is said to you quickly while its still fresh in your mind. That goes for telephone as well as face-to-face conversations. Even better, consistent with your state laws, record every word.

Okay. Let me down from this soap box and I'll shut up.

Jay and Lisa

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by splyb

...

All that said, if your LL case is to have any chance at all, document, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, right from the git-go, until you're blue in the face. Write down everything that is said to you quickly while its still fresh in your mind. That goes for telephone as well as face-to-face conversations. Even better, consistent with your state laws, record every word....
Jay and Lisa

Document even if you don't think you'll ever make a LL claim or a warranty claim and even if you think your overall expenses are going to be unremarkable. It will serve you well upon resale if you can hand a concise bundle to a prospective buyer and say "Here are all the replacements and upgrades that were done."

Hubster and I kept our receipts of course, but didn't explicitly document from the beginning because we didn't imagine that we were going to get into expenditures as far as we have. So now I'm going back and spreadsheeting everything we've invested, and also creating a 3-ring binder to organize original receipts and personal note-taking (tab headings = Electrical, Solar, Mechanical, Structural, Appliances, Propane, Plumbing, Finishings, Accessories, and Misc).

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by UKDUDE

Very impressive, especially the cradle work. That's probably a very specialized build beyond the scope of most local RV engineers. Are they designed to hinge down as in the photo, or were just being installed at that point?

Yes it was a very specialized build. The racks do swing down to install/remove batteries. Got the basic idea from some others on the Sprinter-Forum. The tolerances I had to build to for the available space made me sweat a few times. I had to do a lot of fit checks as I built the racks. BTW I'm an Aerospace Engineer. 😀


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

As an aside, I like how Mike appears to have built his own wheel ramps. So far I have been using our Valterra stackers, and I like them and feel confident in their use, but I'd like a bit more loft for certain jobs. And top quality. The commercially-available truck ramp / riser options can get expensive. Automobile versions are cheap but their weight ratings are lower.

I built those ramps from scrap 2x lumber I had laying around my shop. You could make them higher if needed. Mine are in pieces stacked together like Lego blocks. I had to size mine to fit the storage limits of my garage/shop.


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes it was a very specialized build. The racks do swing down to install/remove batteries. Got the basic idea from some others on the Sprinter-Forum. The tolerances I had to build to for the available space made me sweat a few times. I had to do a lot of fit checks as I built the racks. BTW I'm an Aerospace Engineer. 😀


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

Really impressive, Mike. I was a software engineer, not exactly the right type of engineer for this work.
Peter

[73shark]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

BTW I'm an Aerospace Engineer. 😀


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

So it is rocket science.

[toskeysam]

Nice pics Mike.....I noticed a little "pavement kiss" on the ground effects.....also, how did you manage to get up on those ramps without smashing the LP box?


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by toskeysam

Nice pics Mike.....I noticed a little "pavement kiss" on the ground effects.....also, how did you manage to get up on those ramps without smashing the LP box?

Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

That pavement kiss came from a friends place in North Carolina. Their driveway is so steep I always scrap a little going in and out of their place. I'm working with a local Sprinter speciality shop to add some custom made assist airbags to the rear suspension. Hopefully they will allow me to lift the rear for those steep driveway situations.

Those ramps do touch the LP box lightly. I just have to place the ramps carefully and as I back up them the LP box clears OK. I've had to replace the cover on that LP box once already after hitting a deep pot hole. On my current trip I noticed the cover is all cracked up again. This time I think it was when I backed over some frozen snow in a parking place after the big snow we got in January. My goal is to relocate that LP fill panel higher, but I haven't yet figured out exactly how I will do it. The location of that fill panel is the dumbest thing Airstream did on these Interstates.


- - Mike
2013 Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[Titus]

Perhaps we should have a 'dumbest thing Airstream did' site. My candidate would be a shower stall that does not drain completely regardless of vehicle orientation. Though on any given day/trip my vote may change. My wife's (spotter) main job when parking Titus is to watch the LP fill box.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

... On my current trip I noticed the cover is all cracked up again. This time I think it was when I backed over some frozen snow in a parking place ...

I hope the weather jockeys are reading this. The argument was put forth on other threads that the "Interstate was designed to be used outdoors" and therefore snow does not matter. And as someone who lived over 20 years in a harsh winter climate, I noted that it's the *Sprinter* that was designed to be used in sub-zero weather - not the Interstate. The additions and appurtenances under the chassis were in no way designed to take the punishment that can result from slush ice and similar hazards that accumulate during snowy conditions. Case in point.

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by coder

Yes, if they cannot fix the Interstate, Airstream gets to buy it back for what I paid originally. It's a long, slow, unpleasant process. Working with Airstream on repairs has been pointless and aggravating.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/motor-home-lemon-law

While I do not own an Interstate, the fact that Washington has a lemon law for "motorhomes" intrigued me. Reading through the law, in the link you provided, it makes it clear to point out that the only thing covered by the law is the same things that would be covered by the automobile version, thus unless the house batteries are used to start and run the driving aspect of the vehicle they would not be covered under the law, so if there is a normal battery under the hood then it's a 5 min argument by the Airstream lawyer to shut it down. With how much of a process it would be to file a LL action, I would recommend confirming it before beginning the process. Best of luck correcting your issue.