gasoline in diesel tank

[Titus]

Alex
I have kept careful track of fuel and DEF usage. Fuel mpg varies from 17 to 20 with an overall 69,000 mile average of 18.3. I seldom refill DEF and thus do not have 'instantaneous' values but did calculate an overall average of 2300 mpg, 0.7% of fuel.

I retired from the world of diesel engine emissions regulations and can't help but be suspicious of my low DEF consumption. (Think VW scandal of a few years ago.)

I seldom drive over 70 mph. I know the mpg is much better at low speeds (20 mpg on the 400 miles of the 45 mph Natchez Trace) than it does at 70 mph on the interstate (17-18 mpg) but am not sure to what extent the DEF consumption varies across the different driving conditions.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Titus

Alex
I have kept careful track of fuel and DEF usage. Fuel mpg varies from 17 to 20 with an overall 69,000 mile average of 18.3. I seldom refill DEF and thus do not have 'instantaneous' values but did calculate an overall average of 2300 mpg, 0.7% of fuel.

I retired from the world of diesel engine emissions regulations and can't help but be suspicious of my low DEF consumption. (Think VW scandal of a few years ago.)

I seldom drive over 70 mph. I know the mpg is much better at low speeds (20 mpg on the 400 miles of the 45 mph Natchez Trace) than it does at 70 mph on the interstate (17-18 mpg) but am not sure to what extent the DEF consumption varies across the different driving conditions.

TITUS - I know folks that may be able to match your lifetime diesel avg mpg. But I suspect no one can match your DEF usage of 0.7%. I estimated you were at least half of my 1.7% = 0.8% just based on 1,000 vs. 2,000 and not knowing your diesel mpg. But, 0.7% is amazing. The only good thing about my usage is my DEF will never get too old since I use so much

[Titus]

There is a drain tube at the back of the DEF tank. Every couple of years, at a time when I am down to half a tank or less, I drain the old DEF. At $2.89 per gallon it is cheap insurance to hopefully prevent problems with the SCR system. I use the old DEF as lawn fertilizer in a hose end sprayer. (Probably not viable in the desert!)

[silverhio]

ATF is OK, but will leave some ash in the cylinder. Just dont use it all the time. The 2 cycle engine oil is better, and many people use it with every tank.
The gas is a bigger problem for the injection pump than the engine. Gas is a solvent and diesel is an oil. The injector pump relies on the lubrication of the diesel oil to stay lubricated, and the gas would remove the oil and cause harsh metal on metal scraping that only gasoline injectors are made for. Also, diesel engines' injector pumps operate at very much higher psi than a little gasser, so are under much more load than their soft gas counterparts.
There are diesel engines that are made to run on anything, diesel, gas, kerosene, lighter fluid….but they are special, and not in your TV.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by silverhio

ATF is OK, but will leave some ash in the cylinder. Just dont use it all the time. The 2 cycle engine oil is better, and many people use it with every tank.
The gas is a bigger problem for the injection pump than the engine. Gas is a solvent and diesel is an oil. The injector pump relies on the lubrication of the diesel oil to stay lubricated, and the gas would remove the oil and cause harsh metal on metal scraping that only gasoline injectors are made for. Also, diesel engines' injector pumps operate at very much higher psi than a little gasser, so are under much more load than their soft gas counterparts.
There are diesel engines that are made to run on anything, diesel, gas, kerosene, lighter fluid….but they are special, and not in your TV.

You must be referring to older, pre DPF engines. Using any kind of additive that contributes ash is a good way to ash-load your DPF before it's time as ash does not burn and remains in the DPF. Even the motor oil used in DPF engines is a special designation to help reduce ash loading of the DPF (which will ruin it).

On the older diesels tranny fluid, 2 cycle oil, biodiesel, peanut oil, used/filtered motor oil, pretty much anything goes. Not so much on the new ones.

[Scoutx]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Believe it or not, you can get away with putting 1/6th of a tank of diesel as gasoline. The gasoline will float to the top of the diesel tank, and so wouldn't be initially drawn into the engine.
<snip>
Sidekick Tony

That isn't always true. If your tank is low the gasoline is going to mix into the diesel by the force of free fall from the filler neck to the surface of the diesel. Further modern common rail diesel systems are much more sensitive to the presence of gasoline than the older mechanical injector pumps. So all you really have is the small amount of diesel in the fuel lines that you can count on for protection, and common rail systems recycle a portion of the fuel as it's used as a coolant to draw heat off the injectors. So, you might have a short period of 'safety' before doing expensive damage to your system. A buddy of mine wiped out his high pressure fuel pump which the dumped metal shavings into the lines to the injectors and the bill was over $8,000. So, no, do not assume your common rail system can tolerate any amount of gasoline.

[Alex AVI]

This is the only diesel I have ever owned - 2017 with DPF DEF SCR stuff. So I only know what I have read in the owner's manual & from this forum on how it's supposed to be taken cared of. Being a newbie to the diesel world, I am already overly cautious of this technology. So, I do not understand how a little gas (or a little atf or 2-cycle oil or kerosone, etc, etc) is no biggie to some? Why is this ok? These Sprinter engines, while strong & robust, are already known for finicky & unforgiving emissions components that result from bad driving habits. I can not afford to risk a potential 4or5 figure expenditure. If it happened to me, I probably would've just had it towed to MB coz I can not trust my work under high stress, high stakes repair on the road. Unlike TITUS, I would've been a crying mess

[Titus]

Alex,
Based on the opinion of some I went overboard. But I have doubts that their experience with old diesels relative to gasoline is applicable to modern diesels. Injection pressures are now incredible high, meaning that injection system tolerances are incredibly tight. One of the concerns about using a high percent of biodiesel (B20 or above) is the lower lubricity - same problem that exists with gasoline. I don't know what percent of gasoline is OK, but my drain and flush approach got the gasoline percent down to what I was confident (hoped!) was an acceptable level. But I was still a bit nervous for the first few miles. I don't think that 5-10% (or more) gasoline would actually hurt anything in the aftertreatment system. But I wasn't sure but what it might cause an check engine light error code.

Bottom line I gladly paid a $150 for a local mechanic to help me with the drain and flush. The mechanic brought containers and hoses - things that I couldn't get without access to a vehicle. He also had a helper who got dirty crawling around underneath while I sat in the drivers seat cycling the key every 20-30 seconds.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Titus

Bottom line I gladly paid a $150 for a local mechanic to help me with the drain and flush. The mechanic brought containers and hoses - things that I couldn't get without access to a vehicle. He also had a helper who got dirty crawling around underneath while I sat in the drivers seat cycling the key every 20-30 seconds.

TITUS - you got away cheap compared to RIVERDWELLER in Canadian wilderness but he is also lucky no damage

[Sebtown]

It's like a right of passage for us Sprinter owners. A mistake we only make once! When I put 15 gallons of gas in mine the only thing that saved me, a huge potential expense, was the knowledge and information I learned here, that being "DON'T START IT". Had it towed on a barely long enough flat bed to a local shop. The mechanic hooked a hose and small pump before the fuel pump and drained the tank. I was charged $49 labor and no disposal fee for the fuel! This whole ordeal and we were only 4 hours late to our destination.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by dugster

Sorry to pick on you but who fills a tank with the engine idling? Bet that won’t happen again!

Probably the same ones who idle their rig for 30 minutes before setting off in the morning and the whole time they are setting up camp at the end of the day. Reasoning is the starter motor wears out really fast if they use it too often

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

Probably the same ones who idle their rig for 30 minutes before setting off in the morning and the whole time they are setting up camp at the end of the day. Reasoning is the starter motor wears out really fast if they use it too often

It's not the starter... it's the turbo that eventually fries from lack of lubrication when you pull in off the highway into the fuel station without letting it spin down at idle. In the few minutes at the pump in a turbo-diesel isn't worth turning the engine off as the turbo is just getting spun down as you finish fueling anyway.

[Titus]

85MH325:
It is not turbo speed that I worry about. At high loads the turbo spins at 100,000 + rpm and at idle it spins at a few thousand RPM. Turbo speed drops about as fast as does engine speed. But at high loads the turbo is hot hot hot, and is cooled by the oil that lubricates the bearing on the shaft between the compressor and turbine. I want it to idle a while so that this oil continues to flow and remove heat. If shut down hot the oil will coke the shaft and bearing, causing premature failure. A 'standard' turbocharger is probably $1000. The Sprinter turbocharger is what it called a variable geometry turbocharger, so add another $1000. Add probably another $1000 because its MB. And add another $1000 in labor to change it. Hence the idling...

[Scoutx]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

FUEL ANGEL MISFUEL PREVENTION DEVICE

Attachment 347964


https://m.yout-ube.com/watch?v=B4QQ5FJBbAQ

Which would be great if every station always used the proper sized nozzle, but they don't. I've run across a gasoline nozzle being used on a diesel pump a few times. So it's best to verify for yourself. This is not to say you should get this as it may save you from a oops and thus lower your risk, but it's not going to be zero until AMD unless all stations comply with the nozzle requirements all the time, every time.

[silverhio]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

You must be referring to older, pre DPF engines. Using any kind of additive that contributes ash is a good way to ash-load your DPF before it's time as ash does not burn and remains in the DPF. Even the motor oil used in DPF engines is a special designation to help reduce ash loading of the DPF (which will ruin it).

On the older diesels tranny fluid, 2 cycle oil, biodiesel, peanut oil, used/filtered motor oil, pretty much anything goes. Not so much on the new ones.

Yes, straight pipe run older diesels. Sorry, I don't have to think in terms of these add-on things in the pipe.
Still ATF and motor oil are not good for all diesels, they are downright bad for some, and Im not talking post-turbo. They are bad for the injectors, pump and esp cylinder area. 2-cycle oil is good for it though.
The ash or deposits left by atf is the problem, the 2-cycle oil is made to not leave deposits since it is made to be mixed with fuel and burnt in the chamber.
I think those really old Ford 7.3 can handle anything along with their injectors and pump, but other engines I would be wary. The 2nd gen Cummins do not like anything except 2 cycle oil, and they last longer with the 2 cycle oil so that should be used.

I hope I never have to have engine-killing DEF DPF garbage on my engine, ever. Im not so sure it even helps air quality after all is done.

[silverhio]

Originally Posted by Titus

85MH325:
… Turbo speed drops about as fast as does engine speed. But at high loads the turbo is hot hot hot, and is cooled by the oil that lubricates the bearing on the shaft between the compressor and turbine. I want it to idle a while so that this oil continues to flow and remove heat. If shut down hot the oil will coke the shaft and bearing, causing premature failure. ...

I sometimes run engine at the pump, or I sit with it a few mins and let it idle while the turbo cools. Loose diesel is about as flammable as water, there is no vapor that can explode and there is no safety concern. I am not sure, but I think the law only says do not run a gas engine while pumping… Don't quote me on that.

I run the engine to keep oil moving through the turbo as it cools down. I wait until the exhaust temp is below 300 degrees before turning off engine, lower is better.
If you own a diesel it is very important to have gauges on exhaust, oil, and esp transmission temps.

[Titus]

I agree that the diesel fuel is not very flammable at low temperatures. But one could argue against idling a diesel at a combo pump (diesel and gasoline). But if you can safely drive up to a pump and pull away from a pump with the engine running it is hard to see how you could not have it running while sitting at the pump. Or is that being too logical?

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by Titus

I agree that the diesel fuel is not very flammable at low temperatures. But one could argue against idling a diesel at a combo pump (diesel and gasoline). But if you can safely drive up to a pump and pull away from a pump with the engine running it is hard to see how you could not have it running while sitting at the pump. Or is that being too logical?

Common sense must prevail. The flash point of gasoline is -45* F. The flash point of #2 diesel is +210*F. Likely one will never see a diesel flash-fire at a diesel pump without some extraordinary circumstance. Even at it's low flash-point, gasoline flash-fires at gas pumps are very rare, and are usually started with a spark AT the vehicle's fuel fill opening where there's a higher concentration of fuel vapor and oxygen, or of course, if there's a flaming object (cigarette butt) dropped into a pool of evaporating gasoline fumes. In order for any fuel to flash-over, there must be the correct air/fuel mixture AND an ignition source at that instant.

Generally a hot, breezeless day carries more risk of a higher fuel/air concentration than a cool, breezy day. Of course, most of the public isn't capable of assessing that risk, hence the mantra "never leave your vehicle run at the pump."

And even after all that, you're probably more likely to ignite a gasoline vapor explosion with your refrigerator's pilot light than with your engine running.

[SuperTrouper]

My Wife filled our 7.3 Excursion 44 gal tank with gas once and then drove around town until it started running funny. She scanned the gauges and saw the Diesel Only label under the fuel gauge and realized what she had done and shut it off quick. The flat bed operator was nice to her and told her that heavy machinery operators mix up fuel all the time. Not shire what cost more... 44 gal or fuel or cleaning the fuel lines/manifold. Engine was fine. Still running great at 288 K miles.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Titus

But if you can safely drive up to a pump and pull away from a pump with the engine running it is hard to see how you could not have it running while sitting at the pump. Or is that being too logical?

TITUS - Not only is it logical (which obviously eludes some) but also established & documented truth, either in published form or de-facto practice by millions of folks, experts & ex-spurts & lay people alike. Read on if you have time. Enjoy!

Fair warning, this is a long rant. But still has valuable everyday use. Feel free to read, not read, agree or disagree. My statements are my opinion, but are backed by the Petroleum Equipment Institute and many are backed by the Service Station Dealers of America.

TITUS - full disclosure, in my entire 45 yr driving history, I have fueled a gasoline car while running (maybe couple times because either battery is weak and headed to replace it or in midst of testing intermittent fuel pump). In both cases, just was not going to risk dead car at gas station. Thru the years, society has trained me through drivers ed, gas station signs, repitition, and practice to make it a habit of shutting off engine before pumping. Its now a habit with keyed vehicles. But with the advent of new smart-keys, it is getting easy to forget once you get used to not removing a key to take with you, since key is always in one's self nowadays

Now having said that, vehicles will have multiple vapor catching mechanisms to minimize vapors escaping. The chances of a running engine causing a fueling fire is infinitesimally less than causing a fueling fire filling up a lawn mower gas can on top of pickup bed vs. filling can on the ground.

A rear or front-engined car will have the gas fill usually on the opposite end from where the engine is. The gas tank is still usually mid-car. On mid-engined cars, the tank can be front/back and filler can be front/rear.

As a commercial user, filling up in a commercial gas station, along with maybe a dozen or 2 dozen others, while you are filling up in the rear of your running front-engine, that next customer is rolling in behind you with engine still above idle (maybe even a MB Sprinter turbo still red hot off the freeway) within 6 freakin' inches of your gas nozzle. Your running front-engine is 16 feet away. This is a chained event that happens millions of times a day. Is anyone saying this is a dangerous event and should not be done? Is anyone willing to fillup at 1-person-at-a-time pace? I doubt even the "shut off the engine" proponents will.

More ranting - on a roll here

OTOH - Smoking while pumping gas is a different issue altogether. The danger factor is exponentially worse, even to boneheads.

OTOH2 - Warnings that using a cellphone near a gas pump could spark a fire or explosion are based on an urban myth. The Petroleum Equipment Institute says it hasn't been able to document a single incident when a cell phone sparked a fire at a gas station. Call them or go to their website:

"In fact, many researchers have tried to ignite fuel vapors with a cell phone and failed," the institute says on its website.

OTOH3 - A far bigger danger at gas stations is driving away with gas nozzle still attached to car >> Gas stations, apparently, have long planned for this. Fortunately, driving off with the gas nozzle doesn't pose a big danger. The gas pump has a break-away device that detaches the hose automatically even if it is pulled with enough force.

Kirk McCauley, Director of Member Relations and Government Affairs for the Service Station Dealers of America published these factoids (he is the expert on gas station safety - not me, or anyone here that I know of) - "NO gas escapes from the pump when this happens. He continues "gas hoses have had breakaway devices for as long as I've been in the industry." He also says "I've never seen anyone pull over a pump, and even if someone did knock over a gas pump, today's equipment features automatic shutoff valves."

If you ever lived and pumped gas/diesel at -5° with -40° windchill, pumping GAS without turning off car is routinely done, not only by lay folks but authorities (police, airports, snow crew, public transport, school bus depots, 1st responders, FIRE DEPT, etc). Grew up & lived in Chicago half my life and provide computer service to all of the aboveDiesel rigs do it all the time. No one blows up because of it.

And lastly, does anyone ever see a gas station close their pumps while a double semi big rig (with engine running) empties it's 2 huge tanks with fire-hydrant size fast-fill hoses into multiple underground tanks ready to blowup under your cars? And if you were in line to fillup, would you say "I will come back when it is safe?" Why would any NA, SA, Euro, Asia, Aust. regulating body permit this dangerous practice. And when will they end the USAF practice of fueling their bombers mid-air? And I could go on & on & on . . .

All the research info from industry experts are public. All one has to do is spend their idle time reading it. Instead a few choose to give a valuable contributing member a hard time for something that (while still considered not the norm) is basically not a huge danger to the fueling public at large. All without even a minimum amount of verifiable stats to back up their claims.

So to the few who posted giving TITUS a hard time about fueling his diesel without shutting it down - REALLY? Give the guy a break, will you? Geez Louise!

<<end-rant, finally getting sleepy>>