Engine battery dead

[Land Sailer]

Thank you so much. I'll research Victron more. Also considering Renogy and Windy Nation. After interviewing three different local rv solar installers, I think I found someone who actually owns an rv and seems to know what he is talking about. I've researched a lot and appreciate one who knows more that just how to install a kit.
This forum is wonderful. If not for your many responses, I would probably be either jumping off a cliff or putting a match to my rv.
Thank you, all.

[Alex AVI]

Ahhh, I am so late to this party but better late than never. I re-read all the posts and have a few post-mortem questions too. And glad your unit is good to go DENA M !

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

Main Disconnect on = Fusion on -> chassis battery dead.

+1 here, though I have not taken it to the "chassis battery dead" state, due to my habit (for better or worse) of flipping "Main Disconnect off" even on very short storage situations (and do not want to try to kill my battery just to verify, I trust it will die).

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

What we discovered is the Fusion is wired to BOTH banks, at least in some coaches.

+1 here too on 2018 AI Lounge. In this subject of "wired to both banks", I pulled Fusion install diagram for Primary Wiring Harness and saw this: 12 Vdc constant and switched.


Without pulling my unit apart, does anyone know how these 2 power-in leads are connected to AI. If I follow the logic, then 12 Vdc switched would connect to chassis ignition and 12 Vdc constant would connect to house batteries (though technically those are also switched via Main Disconnect). This implies the Fusion head unit behaves a certain way when 12 Vdc switched is present vs. not ?? I am confused. I think I am missing something

And with regards to the kill switch and the 2x 12 Vdc inputs, how is it wired into the Fusion harness? I imagine 3 options:
1. SPST switch to 12 Vdc constant
2. DPDT switch to 12 Vdc constant & switched
3. SPST switch to GND

I bring this up because there is controversy about where "master battery kill switch" should be (search NHRA and stock car sanctioning bodies). Granted, these are talking about "entire car kill switch" used in the event of a crash, but the concept follows. NHRA mandates a positive side kill switch but stock car sanctioning bodies say a negative side. I fall in the negative side kill switch camp. And it just follows same logic used to jumpstart a car - connect negative cable last to complete circuit, remove negative cable first to open circuit.

EDIT: Just saw Fusion spec's Max Current Draw = 12A Wow!

[Land Sailer]

My question may or may not be related to the Fusion. When boondocking, how much voltage does your engine battery loose per day?
In the "old days" I could leave my truck parked for weeks then get in and fire it up. Guess new systems work quite differently.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Dena m

My question may or may not be related to the Fusion. When boondocking, how much voltage does your engine battery loose per day?
In the "old days" I could leave my truck parked for weeks then get in and fire it up. Guess new systems work quite differently.

I've found that over night in my Lounge, my chassis battery will go down to about 12.4v from 12.7v. So, I'm losing about 0.3v in 8hrs. The chassis battery is a 90Ahr sealed lead acid model, so that means it drains about 20% over night. Since these batteries are just like the house batteries and they should only be drained by 50% to avoid long term damage, on my coach my chassis battery will be flat in about 24hrs if it's not maintained. I know in my case this is due to a mis-wired Fusion as it's drawing primarily from the chassis battery, even when it's supposedly "off" (press and hold power button for a few seconds until button turns red).

With my house power off (Main Disconnect off), my chassis battery loses voltage much slower and can go 4-5 days without a problem. My van is parked where the sun hits it all day (at least on the top....I'm parked between 2 other RV's), and I live in sunny California, so my single 100W solar panel w/ Renogy MPPT charge controller does an excellent job of keeping it topped up (along with my house batteries), even with the original BIM in place. With that replaced with a Blue Sea ACR, things will only improve. Prior to replacing my solar charge controller, my chassis and house batteries would get dangerously low, especially during the winter months when it can be cloudy and rainy for days at a time.

[Land Sailer]

Thanks. Think mine is ok then. I recorded about the same draw with the main switch on, and also a bit less with it off.
I live at the beach in So. Cal so keep my rv in covered storage. It's hooked up to a trickle charge every few days. So, I won't have the benefit of using the solar to keep it charged.
I'm anxious to toss the Sun Explorer! Would love to stay at State or BLM parks without worrying or cutting my trip short.
Appreciate the info.

[Land Stitchy]

Dena,

Can you send a pic of the Fusion cut off switch. I am getting ready to tackle this myself and looking for ideas.

Does anyone know the right rocker switch to order to replace the blanks on the MB dash? Is there one that fits best and looks original?

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Land Stitchy

Dena,

Can you send a pic of the Fusion cut off switch. I am getting ready to tackle this myself and looking for ideas.

Does anyone know the right rocker switch to order to replace the blanks on the MB dash? Is there one that fits best and looks original?

Let's see if I can link this excellent write-up and pics provided by don000 and tk.1217 who went through this a while back. The post is here: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240...on-171644.html

and the doc is here: http://www.airforums.com/forums/atta...8&d=1504013181

Note that this doc CAME FROM AIRSTREAM. If you think your Fusion is mis-wired, went to AS in Jackson Center, OH, and they confirmed it, this is how they would fix it.

As for a cutoff switch, I can't remember which post(s) covered this, but some "sleuthing" on the Forum should provide an answer.

P.S. Keep in mind the Fusion can pull over 10A in full "ON" mode, so be sure any switch you select can handle at least that amount of current.

[Land Stitchy]

Thanks FlyFish,

Read through all four pages of Don000 posts last fall. I believe my unit is wired as expected - to both the aux and main batteries.

I believe this (somewhat) conclusively based on:

1. With the main battery disconnected at the gas peddle I can still run the Fusion (presumably on Aux battery)
2. Working with a meter I eliminated a 1.0 amp draw on the main battery when I pulled the #10 fuse label radio - and fusion would shut down.

I am moving forward with the kill switch plan. Will find and confirm with meter that the cutoff goes on the same yellow wire that Don000 found.

Once the switch is installed I understand, or hope for the following condition:

1. With switch off I can still play music on fusion while parked using aux batteries. Which in my case means 90% of the time on shore power so no drain concerns.

2. With switch on I can run fusion on main batteries mainly while driving.

3. With switch off I will stop the drain on the main batteries with the potential side affect of loosing stored data or taking a minute for a full reboot of fusion when I first get started.

Ordering a K1 Otto switch tonight.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

Ahhh, I am so late to this party but better late than never. I re-read all the posts and have a few post-mortem questions too. And glad your unit is good to go DENA M !



+1 here, though I have not taken it to the "chassis battery dead" state, due to my habit (for better or worse) of flipping "Main Disconnect off" even on very short storage situations (and do not want to try to kill my battery just to verify, I trust it will die).



+1 here too on 2018 AI Lounge. In this subject of "wired to both banks", I pulled Fusion install diagram for Primary Wiring Harness and saw this: 12 Vdc constant and switched.

Attachment 311970
Without pulling my unit apart, does anyone know how these 2 power-in leads are connected to AI. If I follow the logic, then 12 Vdc switched would connect to chassis ignition and 12 Vdc constant would connect to house batteries (though technically those are also switched via Main Disconnect). This implies the Fusion head unit behaves a certain way when 12 Vdc switched is present vs. not ?? I am confused. I think I am missing something

And with regards to the kill switch and the 2x 12 Vdc inputs, how is it wired into the Fusion harness? I imagine 3 options:
1. SPST switch to 12 Vdc constant
2. DPDT switch to 12 Vdc constant & switched
3. SPST switch to GND

I bring this up because there is controversy about where "master battery kill switch" should be (search NHRA and stock car sanctioning bodies). Granted, these are talking about "entire car kill switch" used in the event of a crash, but the concept follows. NHRA mandates a positive side kill switch but stock car sanctioning bodies say a negative side. I fall in the negative side kill switch camp. And it just follows same logic used to jumpstart a car - connect negative cable last to complete circuit, remove negative cable first to open circuit.

EDIT: Just saw Fusion spec's Max Current Draw = 12A Wow!

Did I just wired my switch incorrectly????



When I pulled the Fusion unit out... the red wire had a label with Switched power on it... and the Yellow wire had the Battery 12 volt label... here take a look (sorry, did not take a photo of the red wire label



So I was thinking that if I switched off the yellow wire the unit, when off, would not have constant power... and if I turned on the engine, because of the red wire being switched, it would turn on...

Well, that is not the case... new switch on, if I start the engine, I can turn on the radio... normal function... but if I switch off the new switch that I installed, the Fusion turns off...

I thought the yellow wire was strictly to keep the memory on or the OS running in the Fusion...

I am confused...

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by wachuko

I thought the yellow wire was strictly to keep the memory on or the OS running in the Fusion...

I am confused...

I think the way they intended it to work is either the chassis battery or the house battery will power the Fusion based on a few things. First, if you step into your coach and turn on the house power, the Fusion will come on and it should draw power from the house batteries. If you get into the cab and start the engine, the Fusion will come on and it will draw power from the chassis battery. Where I think they F'd up is on some coaches, and I believe mine is one of them, the Fusion always pulls power from the chassis battery, regardless of how it has been turned on. I have anecdotal evidence to prove this because I stopped by my coach to grab something and left the house power on, which meant the Fusion was also on. The next day my chassis battery was dead, but my house batteries were fine (> 12.7v). Never once did I turn on my ignition, so if my theory of operation is correct, then mine is definitely wired wrong.

Given all of this, I think people putting in bypass switches first need to determine if their Fusion is properly wired. If it is, move to step 2. If not, fix that first, and then move to step 2. Step 2 is to put a physical switch between the chassis battery and the Fusion. This is dramatically complicated by the horrible wiring, where they've swapped red and yellow wire colors all over the place. The best advice I can give here is to punt on following red/yellow wires and just use a continuity tester (ie. ohm meter set to beep when it detects a short) and find which of the two power inputs going into the Fusion is wired to the chassis battery. Put your switch in that circuit and you will always be able to isolate the Fusion from the chassis battery, which is the whole point of the switch in the first place. If you want to isolate the Fusion from ALL power, then put in two switches, one for each power input (Switched and Constant). Unless the guys at Fusion Entertainment really screwed up their design, all settings should be saved in FLASH so removing all power shouldn't lose any settings.

Good luck.

[wachuko]

Thank you!!

I have an extra switch...I am just going to swtich both....

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by wachuko

I have an extra switch...I am just going to swtich both....

I was just about to say switch both Or in my case, taking a different approach, switching GND lead instead (when I get back from CO).

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

If you want to isolate the Fusion from ALL power, then put in two switches, one for each power input (Switched and Constant). Unless the guys at Fusion Entertainment really screwed up their design, all settings should be saved in FLASH so removing all power shouldn't lose any settings.

This reminds me of HAL2000, designed to have no way to completely power down I am just glad Fusion engineers did not design the president's nuclear football switch

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by Land Stitchy

Dena,

Can you send a pic of the Fusion cut off switch. I am getting ready to tackle this myself and looking for ideas.

Does anyone know the right rocker switch to order to replace the blanks on the MB dash? Is there one that fits best and looks original?

This is the one I ordered. Got a message today from the vendor that they should be available again in about two weeks

New message from: impactproducts Top Rated Seller(1,020Red Star)
2 weeks, they are in production.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/141859343063?ul_noapp=true

I thought I had more... turns out, I only had two...

[gmillerok1]

Originally Posted by Land Stitchy

Dena,

Can you send a pic of the Fusion cut off switch. I am getting ready to tackle this myself and looking for ideas.

Does anyone know the right rocker switch to order to replace the blanks on the MB dash? Is there one that fits best and looks original?

I bought one of these to kill the power to the radio. Mine was a double throw, so I could use the chassis battery when the key was off to power the radio as well. The one I use has two on and a middle position which is no power at all.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NCV3-Sprint....c100005.m1851

[pilotbit]

Originally Posted by Land Stitchy

Dena,

Can you send a pic of the Fusion cut off switch. I am getting ready to tackle this myself and looking for ideas.?

Without any real knowledge base in this arena, I am concerned about the addition of a "kill switch".

Does not this Fusion monster need to be powered up at all times to retain volatile memory? Even if it only draws less than 2 amps in 'sleep' or power off mode does it not need the small draw to keep its bank of information happy? Does a kill switch not confound this strategy?

When we try to update the Fusion data/maps it loses its mind and reverts the Mercedes CANBUS to PSM,(which creates all sorts of MB mayhem previously outlined in other threads) causing us to have to go into settings to correct the error - which we would never have thought to do without input from this forum!

What happens when you shut off all power to Fusion with a kill switch? Does it reset CANBUS or do other unknown damage to the MB software?

Sorry for the volume of questions, some rhetorical, - but I am concerned about completely powering down the Fusion.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by pilotbit

Without any real knowledge base in this arena, I am concerned about the addition of a "kill switch".

Critical settings are stored in non-volatile memory (FLASH). Many people have killed their chassis batteries, myself included, and there's no impact on the Fusion once the battery has been recharged. Removing power via a kill switch is no different than letting the chassis battery go flat. Keep in mind that Winnebago figured out this chassis battery drain problem and installed a "kill" switch as standard fitment from the factory, so all we're doing is rolling our own since AS neglected to do it for us.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by pilotbit

What happens when you shut off all power to Fusion with a kill switch? Does it reset CANBUS or do other unknown damage to the MB software?

PILOTBIT - Yes on last response by FLYFISHINRVR. He has probaly seen the most issues with Fusion. So I would follow his advice.

As far as above question with kill switch, no module can reset the CAN-B (body, interior) other than maybe a physical electrical short. Remember, CAN-B is the lower speed & fault tolerant bus. CAN-C (chassis) is the high speed, critical bus that includes engine & emissions management. But Fusion is not connected there.

If you go with kill switch & Fusion keeps defaulting back to PSM, you might incorporate a power-up procedure like :
1. Turn on house batteries
2. Turn on Fusion via kill switch
3. Turn on Fusion via Pwr icon (top right)
4. Check Settings and change back to CAN
5. Then turn on ignition. This guarantees CAN-B does not power up and it sees Fusion in PSM setting, putting it in confused state. Remember Fusion with wrong setting only becomes problematic when it powers up and all other modules in CAN-B powers up and the conflict appears on the bus as they go through polling