Dead engine battery....quiz (2017 AI)

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by 73shark

I like solution #2. Hopefully someone will try it to see if it works.

Anyone that has their rig connected to shore power can confirm this very quickly. All they need to do is be plugged in and set their Magnum to Flooded vs. AGM1, then check the chassis battery (Batt Main) voltage on the tank level panel. If it's 13.4v when the Magnum shows Float on its status screen, then it's working as expected.

Unfortunately I don't have access to shore power or I would test it myself......

[lanechange]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

The Fusion is actually a nice addition IMO.

Based on what we've learned so far, until someone puts a clamp on the Fusion to see how much it's drawing when "off", the real culprit seems to be a dodgy legacy from the flooded battery days. I agree with Mike, and I think the Magnum's charger is doing an excellent job of keeping the house batts at 13.1v, which is what the Magnum provides to AGM batteries in Float mode. Trouble is, the BIM needs to see 13.3v before it will connect the house and chassis batteries together. This is likely because prior to the introduction of the AGMs, the flooded batteries were floated at 13.4v by the Magnum. See the problem?

Sure, the Fusion may be part of the issue by drawing down the chassis battery faster than without it, but there have always been parasitics drawing the chassis battery down. Does it pull it down significantly faster? At this point, we don't know, but IMO that's not the real issue here. The real issue seems to be a "disconnect" between voltage levels needed to keep everything happy when connected to shore power for an extended period of time. Frankly, this must have been an issue ever since AGMs were introduced into the Interstate, but only now has it been raised as a concern.

One solution is to do as one owner has done and any time the coach is plugged into shore power, they attach a small maintenance charger to the chassis battery through a dedicated pigtail that they leave connected and tucked under the floor mat and plug it into the outlet behind the driver's seat (great idea by the way). Another way, and the one that I'm going to use if/when I ever maintain my rig via shore power, is to simply change the setting on the Magnum remote panel and tell it I have Flooded batteries vs. AGMs so it floats them at 13.4v vs. 13.1v. This will ensure the BIM connects the batteries together, and per the Lifeline battery specs, they can be floated anywhere between 13.1v and 13.4v, so no worries there. Problem solved with the push a button. Of course there is a third solution, and is the one Airstream recommends, which is to pull the chassis battery disconnect. It takes about 2 minutes and pretty much guarantees nothing is going to draw that battery down while in storage.

Keep in mind that none of this is an issue when charging via solar, genny, or the engine because those charge voltages are all above the BIM's 13.3v requirement, so all batteries get charged from those sources.

Just drove home to Missouri to put one week old 2017 Interstate Grand Tour to bed at enclosed storage facility. I pulled the chassis battery disconnect in the drivers footwell, and plugged the rig into shore power to keep a charge going to the coach batteries. Reading all the detailed comments about how complex this rig is wired, should I have any concerns with something causing issue with the chassis? As I left the rig, the cab dome light and power door locks were still energized. This due to the power coming from shore connection?

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by lanechange

Just drove home to Missouri to put one week old 2017 Interstate Grand Tour to bed at enclosed storage facility. I pulled the chassis battery disconnect in the drivers footwell, and plugged the rig into shore power to keep a charge going to the coach batteries. Reading all the detailed comments about how complex this rig is wired, should I have any concerns with something causing issue with the chassis? As I left the rig, the cab dome light and power door locks were still energized. This due to the power coming from shore connection?

Based on what others have reported, this seems to be a good solution to avoid any issues with the chassis battery.

I have mine being maintained by solar alone, and even with the smaller-than-ideal solar panel (single 100W panel), both my house and chassis batteries are remaining healthy for weeks at a time. Frankly I'm very impressed by this given the issues others have reported, not just on this site but on other Sprinter-based RV sites. So far I have to give Airstream a B for how well this works. If they want an A, they just need to make a few little tweaks (change BIM/Magnum settings to account for new AGM batteries vs. older flooded style, replace Atkinson solar charge controller with a programmable MPPT unit, and put another 100W panel on the roof). They should be able to do this without raising the retail price of the unit at all (these changes would only cost a few hundred dollars at wholesale prices), and it would set them up for their "all electric" coach that they are obviously considering given the survey some owners have gotten.

[lanechange]

This is my first Airstream, first Sprinter chassis. Having owned 9 previous RV's of various type, this unit is by far is the most complex. I really appreciate all of the forum members and the collective concern to help one another solve issues and enjoy their Airstream. My enclosed storage is in and out by appointment, so I can't get in to inspect the unit as easily as I might like to. I'm going back to check on it in 3 weeks. I'll post what I find once I've been there. I'm trying to prevent battery damage or other issues while in storage. Thanks again for all the great input.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by lanechange

This is my first Airstream, first Sprinter chassis. Having owned 9 previous RV's of various type, this unit is by far is the most complex. I really appreciate all of the forum members and the collective concern to help one another solve issues and enjoy their Airstream. My enclosed storage is in and out by appointment, so I can't get in to inspect the unit as easily as I might like to. I'm going back to check on it in 3 weeks. I'll post what I find once I've been there. I'm trying to prevent battery damage or other issues while in storage. Thanks again for all the great input.

Best luck and please do report back. I think you will be fine as long as the solenoid between the Magnum inverter/charger and batteries doesn't go bad. That seems to be the one fly in the Chardonnay with respect to the new Interstates.

The solution for those who maintain their batteries via shore power is to either have the stock solenoid replaced with one that is higher capacity (200A seems to be the choice du jour) or bypass the pesky thing entirely. Both are fairly easy to do and cost little to nothing. I will likely do the former just for peace of mind.

[VAtom]

Following the detail of this thread has been tedious but interesting.

It may have given me an explanation for my "defective" BIM. Thanks

Changing the Magnum setting to "Flood" so that "float" is 13.4 V is a capital idea as the BIM really does need 13.3V to switch.

In the interest of science and at risk of losing another chassis battery, I am going to change the setting straight away.

I eagerly await the thread asking whether the "flood" setting will somehow damage the AGM batteries

[lanechange]

I returned to check on the AI in storage yesterday and was pleased to find the chassis battery still sufficiently charged. I'm in enclosed storage (no sunlight for solar), plugged into shore power, coach main disconnect is on, and chassis battery is disconnected at the terminal in the drivers footwell. I made sure all lights, accessories, LP disconnect, etc., were turned off. I arrived, unlocked the door, inserted the key into the ignition, reattached the chassis battery at the connection in the footwell, turned the key to on, and then started the engine. All seemed fine. I took the AI out and drove it for about an hour and then put it back in storage. My next winter inspection visit will be after 4 more weeks. So far so good.

[ScottP]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

The Fusion is actually a nice addition IMO.

Based on what we've learned so far, until someone puts a clamp on the Fusion to see how much it's drawing when "off", the real culprit seems to be a dodgy legacy from the flooded battery days. I agree with Mike, and I think the Magnum's charger is doing an excellent job of keeping the house batts at 13.1v, which is what the Magnum provides to AGM batteries in Float mode. Trouble is, the BIM needs to see 13.3v before it will connect the house and chassis batteries together. This is likely because prior to the introduction of the AGMs, the flooded batteries were floated at 13.4v by the Magnum. See the problem?

Sure, the Fusion may be part of the issue by drawing down the chassis battery faster than without it, but there have always been parasitics drawing the chassis battery down. Does it pull it down significantly faster? At this point, we don't know, but IMO that's not the real issue here. The real issue seems to be a "disconnect" between voltage levels needed to keep everything happy when connected to shore power for an extended period of time. Frankly, this must have been an issue ever since AGMs were introduced into the Interstate, but only now has it been raised as a concern.

One solution is to do as one owner has done and any time the coach is plugged into shore power, they attach a small maintenance charger to the chassis battery through a dedicated pigtail that they leave connected and tucked under the floor mat and plug it into the outlet behind the driver's seat (great idea by the way). Another way, and the one that I'm going to use if/when I ever maintain my rig via shore power, is to simply change the setting on the Magnum remote panel and tell it I have Flooded batteries vs. AGMs so it floats them at 13.4v vs. 13.1v. This will ensure the BIM connects the batteries together, and per the Lifeline battery specs, they can be floated anywhere between 13.1v and 13.4v, so no worries there. Problem solved with the push a button. Of course there is a third solution, and is the one Airstream recommends, which is to pull the chassis battery disconnect. It takes about 2 minutes and pretty much guarantees nothing is going to draw that battery down while in storage.

Keep in mind that none of this is an issue when charging via solar, genny, or the engine because those charge voltages are all above the BIM's 13.3v requirement, so all batteries get charged from those sources.

Many of you were following the thread regarding the issue of the 2017 (Fusion equipped) Interstates with a battery drain problem.

Thanks to our terrific dealer, AS NW Adventures in Portland OR, the dealer completed the Service Bulletin to correct the factory wiring. Then the dealer was kind enough to to replace all house and chassis batteries, and just to make sure (against the tech's advice) I installed this KILL KILL KILL switch (think Uma Thurman)...ok oops all i'm showing here is the location the switch is "going to be installed" .....



What I like best is .... when engine is off, and running off coach batteries I can isolate/kill the radio draw....call me paranoid ...(I think some of my ex-wives did) .... but it's a lovely addition to the moving mass of wires we call an ASI


Caveat: Remember - the master switch for the coach remains in the "on" position when plugged into a power AC source for maintaining charge on batts.

[InterBlog]

"...the moving mass of wires we call an ASI"

Having just assisted my husband with our lithium update, this phrase resonates with me.

[VanGo]

Originally Posted by VanGo

Your statements are all correct Boxster. The only time I'm plugged in is when in use and the only time house power is on is when in use (so far). And this is the only time I have had battery issues.

Seems pretty crazy that the best way to drain my battery is to plug in to shore power.

Update on my situation.

After 10 weeks in the service center, it appears all of my electrical issues have been resolved. I haven't had a chance to fully test, but so far so good. While it was in the service center, 3 other units came in with similar issues. Apparently the issue went up the food chain at Airstream to Mike Goetz. The BIM was indeed one problem. That was replaced. Also the tank monitor and Fusion were apparently mis-wired so that the tank monitor only worked when the BIM was engaged, and the Fusion was wired directly into the chassis battery.

The Fusion rep never got back to me, but it appears the problem was in the wiring and not the unit.

It took a long time to resolve but I'm very happy to get everything resolved in time for the season.

[Lily&Me]

10 weeks!

Hope it is all resolved, now, and you can start enjoying.


Maggie

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by VanGo

Update on my situation.

and the Fusion was wired directly into the chassis battery.

So, how is it wired now? And I assume by "wired directly into the chassis battery", you mean it was drawing power from the chassis battery when "on"?

I have confirmed what Mike (Boxster1971) suspected and the Fusion does indeed pull it's power from the chassis battery (turned the Main power on, held the Main Batt toggle down to watch the chassis batt level, and the moment the Fusion kicked on, the voltage level started ticking down like a timer, losing 1/10th of a volt every 1-2 seconds), making the Main Disconnect a "soft switch" only. In your case, did they change it such that the Fusion now draws its power from the house batteries?

[VanGo]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

So, how is it wired now? And I assume by "wired directly into the chassis battery", you mean it was drawing power from the chassis battery when "on"?

I have confirmed what Mike (Boxster1971) suspected and the Fusion does indeed pull it's power from the chassis battery (turned the Main power on, held the Main Batt toggle down to watch the chassis batt level, and the moment the Fusion kicked on, the voltage level started ticking down like a timer, losing 1/10th of a volt every 1-2 seconds), making the Main Disconnect a "soft switch" only. In your case, did they change it such that the Fusion now draws its power from the house batteries?

Unfortunately, I was speaking to the service rep and what I stated was as much detail as I got. I was just happy that they recognized there was a problem and resolved it. I believe you had mentioned previously that you could test by disconnecting the manual disconnect and seeing if it shut down the radio. I did not test this before I took it in for service, but I did after it returned and the radio indeed stays on after pulling the disconnect.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by VanGo

I believe you had mentioned previously that you could test by disconnecting the manual disconnect and seeing if it shut down the radio. I did not test this before I took it in for service, but I did after it returned and the radio indeed stays on after pulling the disconnect.

Interesting!!!!

I'm guessing all of the '17's were wired like yours was with the Fusion pulling power from the chassis battery, but apparently they meant to have it wired to the house. I wonder if Airstream is going to issue a SB so this gets changed as rigs roll in for service.....

[busb2]

Just picked up a new 2017 today. After reading all the posts about the chassis battery problems I am totally confused. My Fusion system will only turn on if the house batteries are connected or with the house battery disconnect off, it will work with the ignition key turned all the way to the right and or the motor running. I have already installed a permanent connection to a battery maintainer just like I did with my 214.5, and the unit is stored connected to power. Not sure what else I can do. Based on all the posts on the issue, I am concerned about even limited overnight boon docking. Ironic that the chassis battery is a boon docking issue when it is typically the house batteries you have to watch. I guess I will learn more as I use it. By the way, the dealer sales staff knows nothing about this issue.

[busb2]

Flyfishingrver I just tried your suggestion of resetting the Magum to flooded battery type after disconnecting my trickle charger from the chassis battery. The result was immediate and just like you resoned, the Magnum brought the chassis battery right up to 13.3.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by busb2

Just picked up a new 2017 today. After reading all the posts about the chassis battery problems I am totally confused. My Fusion system will only turn on if the house batteries are connected or with the house battery disconnect off, it will work with the ignition key turned all the way to the right and or the motor running. I have already installed a permanent connection to a battery maintainer just like I did with my 214.5, and the unit is stored connected to power. Not sure what else I can do. Based on all the posts on the issue, I am concerned about even limited overnight boon docking. Ironic that the chassis battery is a boon docking issue when it is typically the house batteries you have to watch. I guess I will learn more as I use it. By the way, the dealer sales staff knows nothing about this issue.

If you store your coach connected to shore power and have a battery tender of some sort permanently connected to your chassis battery, you're good to go and shouldn't have any problems at all. The troubles all come in when folks don't disconnect the chassis battery per Airstream's recommendation, plug their coach in, then leave it for an extended period (several weeks plus). They all come back to dead chassis batteries, locked ignitions, etc.

As far as boondocking goes, no reason to be worried. Just monitor your battery voltage as you would any time you're unplugged and run the genny for big loads (A/C, microwave, etc) or when the batteries start getting low. Easy peasy.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by busb2

Flyfishingrver I just tried your suggestion of resetting the Magum to flooded battery type after disconnecting my trickle charger from the chassis battery. The result was immediate and just like you resoned, the Magnum brought the chassis battery right up to 13.3.

Nice! Thank you very much for testing that.

If I'm ever lucky enough to have access to shore power, I'll be doing exactly the same and reprogramming my Magnum.

[pilotbit]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

Interesting!!!!

I'm guessing all of the '17's were wired like yours was with the Fusion pulling power from the chassis battery, but apparently they meant to have it wired to the house. I wonder if Airstream is going to issue a SB so this gets changed as rigs roll in for service.....

My '17 GT was manufactured in January of 2017.
When performing the steps to check the power source for the Fusion this is my result:

1. House power - OFF, Ignition - ON, Fusion - ON
2. Ignition - OFF, Fusion - OFF
3. House power - ON, Ignition - OFF, Fusion - ON
4. D/C Chassis battery isol. - FUSION STAYS ON

In this state the House battery is dropping by .1 volts approximately every 5 seconds but the solar has not kicked in at 12.6 v in bright sunlight. It would appear that AS has changed the wiring to the Fusion as of January 2017, or by mistake on my unit. I do wonder why the solar is not trying to help the house battery, but I doubt that it could keep up with the drain from the Fusion.
I am not on shore power.

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by pilotbit

My '17 GT was manufactured in January of 2017.
When performing the steps to check the power source for the Fusion this is my result:

1. House power - OFF, Ignition - ON, Fusion - ON
2. Ignition - OFF, Fusion - OFF
3. House power - ON, Ignition - OFF, Fusion - ON
4. D/C Chassis battery isol. - FUSION STAYS ON

In this state the House battery is dropping by .1 volts approximately every 5 seconds but the solar has not kicked in at 12.6 v in bright sunlight. It would appear that AS has changed the wiring to the Fusion as of January 2017, or by mistake on my unit. I do wonder why the solar is not trying to help the house battery, but I doubt that it could keep up with the drain from the Fusion.
I am not on shore power.

Unfortunately it's down to the way the Atkinson Solar Controller kicks in, only after the voltage drops to approx 80% (around 12.4V). We all wish for a smart solar controller in place of the Atkinson.
However, that's no excuse for the way they've wired the Fusion: my Kenwood goes off in battery disconnect mode.