Carrying extra propane--2006 T1N Interstate Parkway

[InterBlog]

I'm curious about this Extend a Stay option so I dove into a couple of threads on other forums... it looks like it MIGHT be possible, but I would not assume such without examining the specific propane tank configuration of the OP's vehicle. Several threads say things like "all you need is a couple of inches of space..." Heh heh. Never assume that an Interstate will have even a couple of inches where you need them. Especially a T1N.

Anyway, this IRV2 thread has pics showing the tank adaptation. The tank in the photos appears similar to what we have on our T1N Interstate but is not identical - it appears to be larger, which is potentially important.

Even if the adapter can be added, a means of securing the tank would still be needed in a populated area, or else it might sprout legs. Either that or it would call attention to the boondocking, which might run afoul of facility policies. Probably a hitch platform similar to our configuration, as someone else noted above. That way a fitted tarp could be placed over the tank to disguise it.

If the connector could be made to work, this might not be a bad option. And not that expensive either.

[don000]

My research indicates that any arrangement involving the transport of propane on a hitch platform is probably illegal and certainly unwise. Refer to NEPA 1192, the National Fire Protection Association standard for recreational vehicle propane use.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by don000

My research indicates that any arrangement involving the transport of propane on a hitch platform is probably illegal and certainly unwise. Refer to NEPA 1192, the National Fire Protection Association standard for recreational vehicle propane use.

I was wondering about getting rear-ended and the thing blowing up!

[don000]

Originally Posted by amirm

I was wondering about getting rear-ended and the thing blowing up!

It is said that the NFPA restrictions were prompted by a family getting toasted in their RV, when someone rear-ended the DOT propane tank on their hitch carrier.

Section 5.2.3.3 of NFPA 1192 seems to limit the location of propane tanks on a Class B to a recess or vented compartment isolated from the passenger compartment, mounted to the chassis or floor, behind the front wheels and higher than the axles. Section 5.2.3.4 states explicitly "Containers shall not be mounted on the exterior of the rear wall or the rear bumper of the vehicle".

I was hoping that it might be possible to mount a low-profile ASME tank on the roof, but that is prohibited by Section 5.2.3.3.

That diesel generator trailer is looking better . . .

[InterBlog]

I didn't read the reference, but a lot of those types of regulations refer to PERMANENT installations. If a person rents a tank for on-site use, it's not permanent any more than plopping an aux tank on the ground next to the vehicle would be permanent.

For years on the Texas coast, some waterfront business operators had six-inch gaps at the bottom of the walls of their waterfront buildings. It's not a "permanent" building if the walls don't go all the way to the ground. Therefore certain building codes aren't interpreted to apply.

I'm not saying either strategy would necessarily be smart in all scenarios. I'm just relating stories about what sometimes gets done in the real world.

I would be OK with having an extra tank staged temporarily on my hitch carrier if the Interstate were staying in once place, especially since (as my husband will attest) I never go nose-in anywhere unless forced. I'm a back-in driver, so the only thing likely to impact my rear end is a Burford holly or Yaupon shrub.

[LB_3]

I like the hitch mounted tank. Just use the spare tank first and fill up near your destination so you're traveling with an empty tank.

[don000]

Originally Posted by LB_3

I like the hitch mounted tank. Just use the spare tank first and fill up near your destination so you're traveling with an empty tank.

Unless you are carrying a never-used tank, which is even permitted inside the vehicle under NFPA 1192 section 5.2.3.2, there is always residual propane, typically about 20% of the fill.

The NFPA refers to both permanent installations of ASME tanks and non-permanent use of DOT tanks. Carrying propane in a hitch-mounted carrier is contrary to the NFPA's express proscription, and without doubt unsafe.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by LB_3

I like the hitch mounted tank. Just use the spare tank first and fill up near your destination so you're traveling with an empty tank.

There is no such thing as an "empty" propane cylinder. They still contain propane vapor at normal atmospheric pressure and are still a fire/explosion hazard in a collision.

Empty cylinders ARE safer than full or partially-full ones because when heated they won't become torches when the boiling liquid vaporizes, spews out the pressure relief valve, and ignites (there's no liquid to boil)— and it's a lot harder to make them explode— but that does not mean they're completely safe to transport on a hitch-mounted carrier.

But it must be said that transport on a hitch-mounted carrier is still better than transport inside an enclosed vehicle.

Placing a propane cylinder inside a plastic milk crate will keep it upright and minimize the potential for cylinder damage during transport, but will not keep it from being crushed in a collision or heated enough to explode in a fire.

To be clear, I'm not the safety police and I will not tell anyone not to do it— that option went away when I retired and someone else took over my collateral duty as safety coordinator at work. I'm just saying that, if you're going to do it, make sure you know the risks beforehand so you can make an informed decision.

[InterBlog]

I am mostly familiar with NFPA in the OSHA context, not the DOT context. NFPA provisions are generally not enforceable in standalone form even if the regulator explicitly endorses a particular standard. In order for a safety provision to be truly enforceable in this country, it has to go through a formal adoption procedure that includes rule proposal and public comment periods. It's part of the "checks and balances" legal process which is necessarily a cumbersome process, hence the development of third party standards (e.g., NFPA churns its electrical safety standard every 3 years; OSHA is lucky if it can muster an update every 20).

Again, my point is not to deny the technical legitimacy of an agency such as NFPA - it's actually a Godsend to those of us who work in industry because it provides ideas and guidance for which we'd have to wait approximately forever if it didn't exist. My intention is to point out that, unless there has been a formally-adopted DOT equivalent measure, nobody is going to get ticketed for effectively violating some NFPA provision.

Carrying propane cylinders - or plastic gasoline containers for that matter - on the back of a vehicle may not be the smartest option, but it is done. It is done universally by street-legal off-road vehicles because their risk of tank puncture is infinitely greater if their tanks are under-mounted. There are commercial products for sale that allow for the mounting of both on the backs of vehicles. Aluminess makes a gasoline tray that sits on their rear bumper. For liability reasons they may not advertise it as such, but their photo gallery shows it containing gasoline. Here's an example in the propane realm, maker unstated:

[don000]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I am mostly familiar with NFPA in the OSHA context, not the DOT context. NFPA provisions are generally not enforceable in standalone form even if the regulator explicitly endorses a particular standard. In order for a safety provision to be truly enforceable in this country, it has to go through a formal adoption procedure that includes rule proposal and public comment periods. It's part of the "checks and balances" legal process which is necessarily a cumbersome process, hence the development of third party standards (e.g., NFPA churns its electrical safety standard every 3 years; OSHA is lucky if it can muster an update every 20).

Again, my point is not to deny the technical legitimacy of an agency such as NFPA - it's actually a Godsend to those of us who work in industry because it provides ideas and guidance for which we'd have to wait approximately forever if it didn't exist. My intention is to point out that, unless there has been a formally-adopted DOT equivalent measure, nobody is going to get ticketed for effectively violating some NFPA provision.

Carrying propane cylinders - or plastic gasoline containers for that matter - on the back of a vehicle may not be the smartest option, but it is done. It is done universally by street-legal off-road vehicles because their risk of tank puncture is infinitely greater if their tanks are under-mounted. There are commercial products for sale that allow for the mounting of both on the backs of vehicles. Aluminess makes a gasoline tray that sits on their rear bumper. For liability reasons they may not advertise it as such, but their photo gallery shows it containing gasoline. Here's an example in the propane realm, maker unstated:

I see this issue as much like texting while driving - illegal in some states, not expressly prohibited in others; having potentially severe consequences, but so infrequently that an occasional breach doesn't seem too unreasonable, given the practical necessities of everyday life.

Unfortunately the adverse consequences typically involve other, innocent people, so I don't think the practice should be condoned.

While the risk of explosion is almost nil, even in a severe impact, leakage is the real danger. A combustible aerosol fog, capable of ignition by even a spark of static electricity, could drastically magnify the adverse consequences of even a minor accident.

[InterBlog]

I saw that fog yesterday and it can be an incredible sight. Thankfully it did not ignite. I had my tank filled by a newbie who made a mistake. Apparently by our local (state?) law, there is a specific switching arrangement that must be set before propane will actually be transferred into a remote tank. If an operator opens the dispensing valve at the end of the hose without having the main tank valve set properly, it will vent from an emergency release at the end of the hose, rather than going into the tank to be filled.

So this poor dude basically screwed the transfer hose onto my fill port and let 'er rip, such that the full force of the main tank pressure was released directly to the atmosphere. For a couple of seconds, the fog enveloped him to the point where I all I could see remaining was the top outline of his head.

After we got everything straightened out, he told me it was only the second RV he had ever filled, hence the operator error. I went into the store and told his boss that he was a really nice guy and I wasn't upset with him. Boss said, "We all make mistakes and learn by them."

[Protagonist]

That fog you saw was frozen water vapor in the air. Liquid propane expands to 720 times its volume when it vaporizes, and the sudden expansion causes a drastic drop in temperature (remember the "ideal gas law"?).

Ignition of the vapor requires two things— a spark and a propane content between 2.1% and 10.1% by volume. But even if neither of those prerequisites exist, there is a distinct possibility of frostbite from contact with the vapor— that's how cold the vapor gets during sudden expansion. We're not talking liquid nitrogen instant-freeze like in the movies, but there's a reason most licensed propane fillers I've encountered wear heavy leather gloves when handling the fill hose…

I've already mentioned the possibility of asphyxiation from breathing vaporized propane in another post, but I thought the frostbite risk was something interesting that most people wouldn't necessarily know— unless they've read the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for propane.

[mimiandrews]

I've heard propane truck drivers say they cooled their soft drinks by releasing a bit of propane directed at the six pack. At least I hope it was soft drinks. There's a lot of propane in those delivery trucks they drive.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

That fog you saw was frozen water vapor in the air. Liquid propane expands to 720 times its volume when it vaporizes, and the sudden expansion causes a drastic drop in temperature (remember the "ideal gas law"?).

.....

Yes, I remember the ideal gas law. It was one of many preludes to what was probably the most challenging course I ever took in my life - geochemical thermodynamics at the graduate level.

I've never seen an operator NOT wear leather gloves, even that newbie. Most of them do release clouds of propane every time they fill - just not as huge as the one I saw on Saturday. I have no idea why the transfer mechanism is constructed as it is. It seems counterproductive.

Oddly enough, the newbie was the only operator I ever encountered who physically got down and checked my propane tank plate, even after I told him that I had the tank replaced at a location less than a mile from that fill station (checked because of the 10-year limitation on RV propane tank certifications). He was a very large man and it was an immense struggle for him, as the T1N only has nine inches of clearance at the running boards. I offered to scoot under there and take a cell pic for him if that would make it easier. He was having none of it. So conscientious, and then he accidentally almost offs himself in a massive propane haze. But I have no doubt whatsoever that he won't make that particular mistake twice.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I offered to scoot under there and take a cell pic for him if that would make it easier. He was having none of it.

I have never taken a selfie with my smartphone, but I carry a telescoping selfie stick specifically to inspect the top and underside of my Interstate— ever since I snagged a low-hanging tree branch in my brother's yard last year. With the smartphone in video mode the selfie stick works surprisingly well as an inspection stick.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

I have never taken a selfie with my smartphone, but I carry a telescoping selfie stick specifically to inspect the top and underside of my Interstate— ever since I snagged a low-hanging tree branch in my brother's yard last year. With the smartphone in video mode the selfie stick works surprisingly well as an inspection stick.

Now that is a good idea. The low-end ones are so cheap that I'm going to get one and stash it permanently in the Interstate. I have no hesitation about crawling under there but it can be very dirty. The last time I had to do it in an unplanned manner was at a gas station in Wichita Falls when I noticed that the exhaust pipe for the genset had broken free from the chassis and needed to be re-strapped - greasy ground, not good. I carry a cut piece of tarp so I don't have to be dragging myself across filthy concrete, but a stick might be better in certain scenarios.

[InterBlog]

I'm wondering if the OP made any headway on this issue since the thread was last active?

Your problem has become our problem, too. One of the most significant things we learned on our recent jaunt across the US and eastern Canada is that it's almost impossible to recharge an RV with propane north of Bangor. In a future year, I'd like to take my husband back to NS in the fall to see the changing of the leaves, an event which intentionally coincides with a large music festival called Celtic Colours. My husband is a native Houstonian and hasn't seen much in the way of leaf-changing in his life. Perhaps I'm biased, but NS's leaf-changing might be the most spectacular in the world. It's worth seeing.

Well, leaf changing is triggered by frost. Frost requires the Interstate's heater to be run at night. The heater requires propane. We can't carry enough in that one small tank for an extended trip, so this goes onto the long-term list of projects that need to get done eventually - how to expand the capacity.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Well, leaf changing is triggered by frost. Frost requires the Interstate's heater to be run at night. The heater requires propane. We can't carry enough in that one small tank for an extended trip, so this goes onto the long-term list of projects that need to get done eventually - how to expand the capacity.

If you would have an electrical hookup, the answer is easy— carry supplemental electric heat. I have a small desktop electric heater for that purpose. I chose a desktop model because it is small AND because it has a tip-over switch on the bottom that shuts it off if I accidentally knock it over. Given the small size of an Interstate, a small desktop heater should keep your Interstate warm enough by itself in above-freezing temps, and will definitely keep the Interstate warm enough in conjunction with the furnace in below-freezing temps. Adjusting the thermostats so the electric heater comes on first and the furnace only comes on when the interior temp dips too low will minimize the amount of propane burned.

If you're going to be boondocking, electric heat won't help, so plan on filling the propane tank as far north as you can, because cold propane is denser than warm propane, and you can squeeze a few extra BTUs worth into the tank if you fill the tank when the air temp is near freezing.

But since a T1N Interstate really does have a small tank, roughly half the size of an NCV3 Interstate's tank, you might want to check with a dealer to see if a tank from an NCV3 Interstate can be retrofitted to a T1N Interstate. Or, I don't know the underbody configuration of a T1N Interstate, but it seems to me that the ideal protected location for a supplemental propane tank would be in between the frame and the driveshaft ahead of the rear axle, assuming that space isn't already occupied by water or waste tanks. A long but small-diameter tank (or two shorter small-diameter tanks end-to-end) might fit in that area, depending on the location of frame cross-members.

[InterBlog]

In NS in October, electrical hookups might be even more rare than propane. Most tourist facilities are shut for the season before that point.

I will be evaluating for the potential to add a second chassis tank.

[glfprncs]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I'm wondering if the OP made any headway on this issue since the thread was last active?

Your problem has become our problem, too. One of the most significant things we learned on our recent jaunt across the US and eastern Canada is that it's almost impossible to recharge an RV with propane north of Bangor. In a future year, I'd like to take my husband back to NS in the fall to see the changing of the leaves, an event which intentionally coincides with a large music festival called Celtic Colours. My husband is a native Houstonian and hasn't seen much in the way of leaf-changing in his life. Perhaps I'm biased, but NS's leaf-changing might be the most spectacular in the world. It's worth seeing.

Well, leaf changing is triggered by frost. Frost requires the Interstate's heater to be run at night. The heater requires propane. We can't carry enough in that one small tank for an extended trip, so this goes onto the long-term list of projects that need to get done eventually - how to expand the capacity.

We've made no headway...have just scoped out all of the nearby propane sales as soon as he gets into town each week. He found propane for less than $1.00 last week in Springfield, MO!

He's also getting better making his propane last a bit longer.