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Old 05-19-2019, 11:32 AM   #29
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Not a vaccine

When we were planning an extended cross country trip with visits to many National Parks in the west, I researched this topic extensively. Bottom line: this product is not a vaccine in the commonly understood sense of the word. This is a diluted venom, the theory of which is that this will build up a tolerance for the venom. One of the best-known vet schools in the country (Texas A&M) does not support the concept at all.
Although we didnít use it for our dog, one the most promising things I saw was avoidance training where the trainer uses live snakes in cages and trains the dog to avoid them. Dogs have a great sense of smell, so I would think this would teach the dog that these snakes are to be avoided.
For what itís worth, we never encountered a snake, but much of our trip was in the winter, when snakes are less active.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:08 PM   #30
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That is great information, and thank you.

Maggie
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Old 05-19-2019, 01:49 PM   #31
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This article popped up this morning, and Iím pondering contacting my vet about a vaccine for Lily before heading out on summer travels.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-..._campaign=news

Wondering if others are doing this, and what peopleís experience with snakes has been.

Thanks in advance!

Maggie
I thought the question was interesting, but the link given didn't mention vaccine. That I saw, I might have missed it nobody seemed to discuss vaccine in the thread. I never heard of it before. I did a search and discovered that it is a thing, there is a snake bite vaccine for dogs. There is a difference between and anti-venom and a vaccine. Vaccines are preventative, anti venom is curative after a bite.

I did find this - http://www.redrockbiologics.com/
The company that makes a FDA approved Dog and Horse Snake Vaccine.

"The vaccine stimulates your dogís own immunity.
Vaccines work by stimulating an animalís immunity to defend against potentially harmful agents. The Rattlesnake Vaccine is intended to help create an immunity that will protect your dog against rattlesnake venom."

This helpful also - https://www.doghealth.com/care/safet...ccine-for-dogs
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:37 PM   #32
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Simple solution here, carry a handgun of .357 or larger, loaded with shotshells....very effective!
How so?
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:03 PM   #33
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Had both my dogs go to rattle snake avoidance class. They put shock collors on dog then walked them by snakes they put out in gages .As soon as dogs got close and pick up scent and proceeded to check out new smell
They hit them with a good shock. Then they walked them by another do the same thing. After 5 times the dogs did not want anything to do with these snakes as soon as they picked up scent they would run away.The dogs thought that the snakes
We’re giving them a shock. I
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:29 AM   #34
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..... I asked about the shots and they said they didn't give them because they weren't that effective and if your dog did get bitten, you'd still need to get them to the vet for treatment. The shots would help reduce the effects but they weren't a cure all.....
This is consistent with what I was told.

Also, what the poster from Chappell Hill TX said was a good piece of perspective: we have 4 vipers in our area, 3 of which can bite (coral snakes are the most deadly but very rare and I've never heard of a dog being bitten because the coral snake's mouth is too tiny to get a purchase).

Of the 4, rattlesnakes are the least of our worries. Hands down, cottonmouths are 10x as dangerous, by virtue of their attitudes and by virtue of their wider distribution. And copperheads are more dangerous as well, by virtue of their stupidity. At least a rattler has the good sense to warn and/or get out of the way. A copperhead will just sit there and bite. And a cottonmouth (moccasin) will actually pursue a person or a dog, if it's in the wrong frame of mind.

Therefore, we haven't gotten the vaccine. It's too little in the way of countermeasure for too small a component of the overall snake risk.

What we DID do is train our dog very well. We go many places where the chances of encountering a viper are close to 100%. I know I'm going to encounter them, and I do encounter them. It's difficult to hike with packs, water bottles, etc. and hold a leash, but we trained the dog to stay at the heels of the lead person. That way, the leader serves as a look-out and a shield.

One well-trained off-leash dog, and one moccasin on the path saying "cheese".



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Old 05-21-2019, 11:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by briferg View Post
I thought the question was interesting, but the link given didn't mention vaccine. That I saw, I might have missed it nobody seemed to discuss vaccine in the thread. I never heard of it before. I did a search and discovered that it is a thing, there is a snake bite vaccine for dogs. There is a difference between and anti-venom and a vaccine. Vaccines are preventative, anti venom is curative after a bite.

I did find this - http://www.redrockbiologics.com/
The company that makes a FDA approved Dog and Horse Snake Vaccine.

"The vaccine stimulates your dog’s own immunity.
Vaccines work by stimulating an animal’s immunity to defend against potentially harmful agents. The Rattlesnake Vaccine is intended to help create an immunity that will protect your dog against rattlesnake venom."

This helpful also - https://www.doghealth.com/care/safet...ccine-for-dogs
There is mention of vaccine in the article, and a link, and thanks for that additional info...

Keep the dog on a leash

Like humans, dogs are more likely to get bitten when they go off the trail, so it's best to keep your pup on a leash. And in addition to signing your dog up for a snake avoidance class, there are snake vaccines available for dogs, so check with your vet.”

I’ve purchased children’s liquid Benadryl, and have the dosage for Lily's weight on a piece of tape with a syringe affixed to the bottle.

Would be better than nothing, until can get to a vet.

Maggie
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Old 05-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #36
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Snake Aversion Training

I tried the vaccine but my dog (Brittany) was allergic to it. I did the Snake Aversion Training (San Diego County) which was great ($60 a session). Did the training every couple years. Rusty has never been bit but he is traveling fast sometimes hunting and has jumped over snakes. The Snake Aversion training keeps them from being curious. The anti venom is very expensive.
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Old 05-23-2019, 07:02 AM   #37
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Interesting article on AS Addicts..

Very Important for all dog owners

BENADRYL FOR SNAKE BITES

This article was written by a veterinarian of the United Waterfowlers Forum.

"First, let me say that I have been a vet for 23 years in N Florida. We treat probably an average of 15 snake bites a year. That would translate to over 300 snake bite cases I have treated, or been involved in. So my opinions are not based on what happened to one dog, or my neighbor's dog or even the 2 dogs that have been bitten that I personally owned. So not only have I treated a lot, but since I do treat so many, I stay current with current treatment options and what works best (based on data, not stories).

So, here goes with some absolutes about snakes. The things that follow are facts that I have either observed or read or both.

-There is no magic time for how long until treatment. get them there as soon as you safely can. I have saved dogs that were bitten 24 hours prior and had patients die that I saw within 30 minutes. The exception is if there is a bite to the tongue or inside of mouth that may cause breathing issues. I have never seen a bite to the nose cause life threatening breathing issues.

-You do not need to make any effort whatsoever to "get the snake" to take it to the vet. If it is poisonous and causes swelling, we know what to do. The only other poisonous snake in FL is the coral and it does not cause swelling. Unless it is some released species and we will not have antivenin anyway.

-Antivenin (antivenom) is NOT an antidote (meaning it cures). I rarely give it anymore. There are situations where I think it is best to give it, but I have found very little prediction of survival based on antivenin administration. There are some cases that are so bad, you had better use everything you have (bites to the trunk (body) of small dogs or cats).

-Benadryl (Diphenhydramine) is NEVER wrong to give and almost always, if not always, will help the patient. The liquid is nearly as fast as an injection. 1mg per pound of body weight (or Children's Liquid, generic is fine - 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten).

-Treatment by a veterinarian will ALWAYS result in less disease for the patient. Absolutely, many patients will survive without veterinary treatment. But snake venom is a huge protein and huge proteins are deposited on the basement membrane of the kidneys when filtered. This leads to immune related injury to the kidneys from snake bites that may not be clinically relevant, but could lead to permanent kidney damage that could affect them later in life. Intravenous fluids reduces this risk as well as keeps the patient well hydrated to get rid of the venom and reduce the toxins built up from necrotic (dead) tissue resulting from snake bites. Simply put, if you want to increase the dogs chances of survival and less long term disease, take them to the vet.

-Moccasins are the least toxic, copperheads next (we have tons of them around here) and rattlesnakes are the worst. Moccasins may have more tissue toxicity-damage local tissue and pain-but they are the least toxic of the snakes. But they can still kill a dog.

A lot of factors play a role in the odds for the dog:

*Location of bite-nose, face, head, legs, trunk of body (best to worst)
*time of year-fall snakes have been actively feeding and have less stored venom, spring snakes have more likelihood of having stored venom from less recent feeding
*amount of injection - a miss or an oblique bite that does not get full injection
*species of snake
*size of snake (more venom = more serious)
*prior history of bites improves patients odds (more immune response to the venom)

-anyone, vet or otherwise, can NOT predict which dog will live and which will survive by looking at them, or even by running tests. there are just so many variables. I can often tell someone that the odds are bad or that the odds are good, but sometimes I am wrong. I still get surprised.

IV fluids are the single most important factor that we can control in helping a snake bite victim recover with the minimal amount of disease, with benadryl being second. Some patients are going to die, no matter if they were in a veterinary University Teaching Hospital at the time of the bite and there is NOTHING that could have been done to save them. I have had patients die with 30 minutes of the bite (one was a Jack Russel bit in the side of the chest, the other was an American Bulldog bit between 5-10 times all over the body).

If you ask me, "What can I do to make the odds the best in my dog's favor that it will not die from a snake bite?", I would say:

a) keep benadryl in your dog first aid kit - Children's Liquid, generic is fine. Give them 1 tsp for every 12.5 pounds of body weight if they are bitten.

b get your dog to a vet if they are bitten as soon as reasonably possible - do not be over-dramatic and get in a car accident to get there, but do not stop at the dry cleaners on the way either. Proceed with due haste."

;
Yes...not just for snake bite's. It has always been in our Dog first aid kit.👍

Bob
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Old 05-23-2019, 07:54 AM   #38
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May not be convenient to carry wasp spray, but living in residential SC, we have a lot of snakes. Can't really shoot in town, have to get close with a shovel, so we use wasp spray. If you don't want to spray the actual snake in the face due to moral convictions, spray to his side and he will zoom that way to chase it.
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Old 05-23-2019, 05:14 PM   #39
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We live in Southern California and have rattle snakes in our area. We see them on the trails around our house, in the back yard, etc. We get our dogs rattle snake vaccinated every year. It's a form of insurance. If a dog is bitten and aren't vaccinated they may need 2 - 3 doses of antivenin. If they are vaccinated, it will probably only require one dose of antivenin. The antivenin shots run around $800 per dose. The vaccination is $45.

If you're going west into rattle snake territory, it may still be worth getting Lilly vaccinated. I suspect most vets in the west carry the vaccine so you could get the 2nd booster on the road. If you're only planning to travel west once every 5 years it's probably not worth getting vaccinated, unless you want the "insurance" for this particular trip (I'm assuming you would not likely keep up the annual vaccinations).

My sister lives in Colorado and found a snake avoidance trainer that she used. With a good trainer it should only take one session for the dog to get the idea. Let me know if you want the name of the trainer if you're traveling through Colorado.

Crista
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Old 05-23-2019, 07:36 PM   #40
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Thanks, Crista.

Weíre going to leave here in 10 days, without a vaccination, tho I do have a supply of liquid Benadryl.

Maggie
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