Our Dog Dingo... Cruciate Ligament torn

[Kellycanoe]

Hi Ray,

Looks like I might be the first veterinarian responding to your post, but the advice you've gotten from other dog lovers has been terrific. I agree with the advice to use a glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM product formulated for use in dogs -- available at your vet's or over the counter; also Adequan, as mentioned; and, if you can find it locally, a Chinese herbal formula called The Great Mender, made by Mayway for use in humans but very safe at 1/2 dose in a dog Dingo's size. Also, veterinary (not human!) pain meds are valuable, as dogs don't always admit how much discomfort they're in.

I would caution against the use of a brace. In principle, it's a great idea, but fitting it to a dog's leg in such a way as to avoid pressure sores is very challenging. I've seen even a custom-fitted brace cause considerable skin damage.

The affected knee will become arthritic over time, but Dingo can still have a terrific quality of life. He won't be as active, but I can see that he will be well loved! Wishing you and Dingo many good times ahead.

[doctari]

Get the surgery . The extra capsular method works well in my experience,. @ 800 to 900$ in our area . I have done many of these. The longer the delay , the more arthritic changes develop .

[lindaebrewer]

What makes me happy about this thread? There are a boat-load of dog lovers among Streamers.

[rmkrum]

Dogs just think of an AS as a big silver doghouse they travel with their pack in....at least that's how ours act.


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[Bluestar99]

We went through this last year with our 60 LB mixed breed. While he was only 5 YO we felt like we had to get him well. It was a long 4-6 weeks for all of us. He had to be kenneled all day except for going out for potty breaks. We used a sling to keep him from putting any pressure on the leg when going up or down steps to get outside. Then back in the kennel. He hated that, as he had never been restricted before. But I can tell you to see him tear around the yard now, with our other dog, playing and rough housing was worth the down time. The Surgery cost was just over 2K. Good luck with your decision, it is not an easy one.

[guillaume]

pm me! we've been there with a beloved Ridgeback, Belphoebe. Same initial diagnosis ... second opinion from more reliable vet (who treats Seattle police dogs). Outcome: surgery not needed, cruciate not torn, Belphoebe lived for years with full recovery from what I believe was bad manipulation and mishandling by initial vet looking for work. That surgery is extremely invasive and we were CRUSHED by the initial diagnosis. My undying respect for the second vet!

Bill Bramwell

[Ray Eklund]

Kellycanoe... glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM we have been giving to Dingo for two years and quit maybe a year ago. I will have my wife read your post and visit the idea continuing his daily pill.

Guilaume... Dingo shows no pain. At first we thought a bruised foot, then sprain, maybe a hip... and then the knee. By working his leg we could not find any broken bone(s). Then kept coming back to the ACL/CCL. No swelling, no licking the general area.

The Vet worked Dingo's leg and with the assistant holding his front body, the Vet tested the knee. By pushing with some effort, Dingo did react. This was his diagnosis and what we had suspected. The Vet wrote a prescription for Carprofen (Rimadyl) 1/2 tablet every 12 hours.

Comments on a well documented website on this pain killer was that without pain the dog could injure the leg even further... was one point. Since Dingo shows no pain, I am under the uneducated impression that it could be a situation where scar tissue might improve the knee function, with a partial or complete separation of one ACL/CCL. He can support himself when "marking a tree or bush" on this leg, but still prefers his right leg for such activities... That is the part that encourages me it could be injured, but not 100% permanent disability.

Reading "Dog ACL / CCL Ligament- Recovery Without Surgery" from a Google Search.

Dingo has some existing arthritis just from his active lifestyle, long hikes and rabbit chases of the last eleven years. Not as active as our 5 year old female Heeler, as he takes more breaks in his activities now. Currently we limit his outside activities to look for improvement in function, if any is to be expected.

Since Dingo is likely to injure himself in the future with any surgery or not... he has had a very lucky life as an active working dog in our large number of camping trips. As long as he can adapt, and possibly a recovery as guillaume experienced, we hope he will make the best of the years left to him.

Had Dingo been five years old, we would further explore the need for surgery. Sometimes tough decisions must be made, so surgery was not our best option. Since he is neither overweight nor under exercised... we will watch his progress over the next several months.

Life has no guarantees and we accept that for ourselves and our Blue Heelers. As painful to us, putting our best friend down is part of our responsibility as a working dog owner, if it comes to that. We have had to put two Blue Heelers down over our lifetimes, buried them in our yard and grieved over their passing.

Our feelings are if we live a good life and die... we will be given a second chance as a Blue Heeler and find a home like ours... or one posting on this thread.

Thank you for everyone's personal stories. It helps us and others to understand that we are not alone. As this story develops and we carefully watch Dingo's progress, I will give everyone an update if you needed one, or not.

[CJ Winch]

My shepard/chow mix severed her cruciate ligament and had surgery - the vet said if she was "susceptible", she could injure her other rear leg within a year. I cheered when the year was up, then 2 weeks later she tore the other one. We had the surgery on the other one as well, she was only 1.5 yrs old with the first. The surgery was horrible and she'd lay in the living room all day long in pain and not wanting to go out to potty, I'd have to force her and she'd wimper and cry. The recovery is difficult due to the dog wanting to run and play and us having to resist the urge to allow it. Poor Brandi recovered, but always had sore arthritic stiff rear legs and she was never the same, she lived to 13. My other dog, Baxter tore his cruciate, but it wasn't severed. He was young and we did the surgery. He was never the same and limped on and off on that leg the rest of his life. He would still run, but would be in pain and hold that leg up afterwards. Both dogs have been on deramaxx and rimadyl - my vet said that you have a choice with pain medication, either wreck the kidneys or liver. You can have the dog on a daily dose of one med, and test for kidney/liver damage, then when there's a problem switch to the other med. I'm glad we did the surgery with the first dog, but wish we never did with the other one. It is a sad and difficult injury. I have 2 healthy happy 2 yr old dogs now and hope I never have to deal with that type of injury ever again. My advice with an 11 yr old dog, let it heal on it's own as best as it can and live life to the fullest possible. Personally my opinion is that surgery is too rough and costly for a dog of that age. I'm sorry.

[KenSanLan]

Our terrier had this surgery successfully -twice. Immediately after the first one healed she blew out the one on the opposite side. Also successful, and after it healed she was good as new.

[Thiatt55]

Our 2 year old male Corgi "Dennis" tore a rear leg tendon and we did all the research as you have and decided no surgery and just to let time heal his damage. The process was long and challenging and not a lot of fun for him but he is doing great now. He was recovering for 12-18 months.

We happened to come a across an add for Laser Therapy posted in the Vets exam room and decided to try it. I would say he showed dramatic improvement from the treatments. We did 2 -6 session treatments. His bother, now a 6 year old Corgi "Barkley" has what is thought to be a slight tear in a rear knee and we will start Laser Therapy on him tomorrow. Barkley limps when he first gets up from a resting position and after 10-20 steps is fine so his damage does not seem as sever as Dennis had.

Plus Laser Therapy is not very expensive. Surgery is and no guarantee.

Good luck.... Nothing has more Soul that an Old Dog.

[Ray Eklund]

Dingo is still with us... and has figured out that his life as a Working Cattle Rustler is over. Becoming more of a spectator sport, watching Blue the Heeler fill in.

Dingo in the process of wanting to be a normal 100% Heeler sprained his back running on three legs, so that he is operating on two hind legs that now require taking it easy. He has managed to slow down and watch more and participate less.

Our camping will require that he gets a long cable at the camp site when we go on a long hike... his hind legs would be tested long before ours give out.

This is our best option. He has already become adjusted for his new career.

A Dog Bureaucrat.

[Ray Eklund]

Dingo with three strong legs and still believing he was operating on four, tore his other rear cruciate ligament. This was less than two months ago while the first was developing "scar tissue". He now "limits" his bursts of energy with weaker rear legs. Dingo weighs in the 60 to 65 pound range.

Of course he seemed lethargic and not wanting to, what I term, 'hop a long' for very long.

We determined he was in pain, but dogs do not show it like people. They just are lethargic, when they are usually a very active Blue Heeler.

The biggest turn around was mixing two pain medications. My wife gets the vet's prescription and fills it at Costco.

- Rimadyl Caplet 100mg- split one caplet and give 1/2 tablet twice a day.

Dingo became much more responsive and will never have 100%, but I would say he went from 25% to 65% active immediately.

We took Dingo to a Vet Physical Therapist who confirmed everything we already knew. She recommended swimming therapy and other expensive therapies. We can do that ourselves. We were getting into hundreds to thousands of dollars... Sorry, but the end result was no different than what we do here at home. If you have listened to these therapy sessions offered for your pet... you already know.

This time we added:

- Gabapentin 100mg capsule to the previous 1/2 Rimadyl caplet... both twice a day.

The addition of Gabapentin may have helped some, but the 1/2 100mg caplet did the most improvement of pain mitigation.

We asked for "pain mitigation" and not physical therapy in lieu of two operations.

Dingo has figured out how to avoid slippery ice on pavement by walking into snow, and can go up several steps without looking and spending time to judge the difficulty. He can go on short walks and seems to be as normal as possible, considering his current limitations. Dingo's rear leg muscles are about 50% of his pre rear knee injuries. We hope to keep him moving outside to maintain, if not develop more muscle.

Putting Dingo into the back seat of our Tundra, we have his Pet Porter on the ground, he goes into it and my wife and I lift it and slide it onto the back seat. Both of our Heelers travel in their Pet Porter on the Tundra's back seat from the time they were pups. It takes more effort, but we do not mind. As long as Dingo can maintain his current living situation, we will do what it takes and the pain medications seem to have helped considerably.

If any of these posts helped you with your dog, all these posts by members have not been wasted.

[Lily&Me]

Poor Dingo.


Maggie

[bolerama]

Thank you for the updates. Take care of yourselves and Dingo. Lisa

[DHart]

Sorry for what is happening with Dingo.

This thread shows such an amazing group of dog lovers. I am surprised, though, to hear of such widespread incidence of this problem. Praying I don't. Face it with my dogs.

[McDave]

I believe your posts have helped me, Ray. Lupe has always been a little overweight at 42-44 pounds, which the vet would have liked to get down to 40 pounds, but since Lupe is very active and healthy, the vet stopped mentioning it a year or so ago. But then something must have changed, and Lupe's weight crept up to 46 and then 48 pounds. When she hit 48 pounds, the vet gave me a short lecture that made me feel like I was back in the Marine Corps again. She said, "This dog has gone from overweight to obese! I want her back here in 2 weeks for another weighin, and she better be down to 46 pounds." Then she went on to explain to me the dangers of a torn cruciate ligament, and that until Lupe gets back down to her normal weight range of 42-44 pounds, she didn't want her jumping in or out of cars, etc. it was okay if she ran fast on level ground, but no jumping at all. Because of what I've read here, I took the warnings about torn cruciate ligament seriously, and I have been lifting Lupe in and out of my truck. We cut Lupe's rations in half, and cut her treats in half, not in number but in volume, and Lupe was 45 1/2 pounds at the two week weighin.

Interestingly, we thought we were failing miserably to get Lupe's weight down during the two weeks, because first we would weigh my wife and then my wife would hold Lupe and we would weigh them together on our home scale. Doing it that way, it seemed that Lupe had only lost a half pound, and we didn't see how that was possible on half rations. But on the vet's more accurate scale, she was down 2 1/2 pounds, which was more than we expected.

So we will continue the half rations until Lupe hits 42 pounds, and then try to stabilize her at that weight. It took both Ray and my vet to get my attention on this one; I'm not sure either one alone would have reached me.


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[n2916s]

My wife is a veterinarian, now retired. She started to see more cruciate ligament cases toward the end of her years in practice because so many of her patients were overweight (she would never say it, but so were a lot of the owners). She didn't do orthopedic surgery so off they went to the surgeon which, of course, could get pricey.

Totally unsolicited advice -- when you look at your dog, you should not see ribs but when you run your hand down its flank, you should easily feel them. Keep them light and you will keep them longer.

Mike

[carlc]

My 10 year old Ginger,(Golden) developed ACL about 2 months ago. We thought she strained herself in the deep snow. When it did not get better in a week we took her to our vet. He said right away it was ACL, but she may get better. He gave us some pain pills, enough for two weeks and a referral to a animal hospital who does the surgery. In about 10 days we made a appointment for a consultation and x rays,we had to wait 3 weeks for an appointment. The surgeon said i would give it another month. That would bring to April 8th. Since it happened and up until now there has been a marked improvement in her energy and her walk, her se-saw gait is almost gone. She gets up slow yet on kitchen floor but gets up normal on carpet. She wants play a lot, but we are very careful. We boost her up into suv and i lift her out holding her hind legs by her belly. Two more weeks till we see the doc again and we will see what he recommends. She steps into my Scamp camper just fine. This has been an worrisome ordeal for us. Carl

[joej]

Something you might consider http://www.muttkneebrace.com/ I have no experience with them myself but have heard they really help out.

[Ray Eklund]

Wonderful information from those who know from previous postings!

Dingo and our younger Heeler, Blue are on the 'light' side for weight and size. At times we felt that the younger female who is about 75% the size, gets into Dingo's food when he is not paying attention. He eats in spurts, walks off and comes back to discover less in his food bowl.

Several days ago a smoke detector alarm went off in the basement indicating the battery was low. Dingo went down two flights of stairs to follow us to the noise and followed us back up the stairs. For a dog with TWO ACL injuries... the recover has not been fast, but he sure appears to be getting use to his limited activity of chasing rabbits and protecting the gardens from the 20 more deer that roam around here every day for green grass and eatable plants.

His light dragging of his rear toe nails is less. His gait is more normal, but I do not expect a 100% recovery, but a 75% to a possible 80% recovery may be possible. The pain medication doses are still the same as I reported earlier. The 'gait' is what I have noticed improving the most. A normal walk and not the 'hopping' as earlier reported.

Since we hiked every morning and have cut that out with the heavy Spring snows, he wants to play tug of war with his rubber ring and has found a comfort level for activities. We have not tried to reduce the pain medication... yet, but that may be a second test of where his pain level has become.

He is alert. More likely to go outside when the younger Blue wants to sniff the previous evening's deer passing through our yard and settling into the scrub oak in the area during the day.

If this improvement keeps up without surgery, I am impressed that the recovery has been achieved with the use of pain medication and light physical activity. Activity seems to be improved over the previous week.

More pain = less active. Less pain = more active.

We have two neighbors that their dogs 'injured' a hind leg recently. One is another active Heeler and one dog not so active, but runs back and forth along their yard when a vehicle drives by.

I do hope these posts of mine and other dog owners, help some of you and your decision to medicate for a recovery and operate for a recovery. For us, the pain medication provided a quick response and as of lately, Dingo is getting along better than expected. This should encourage those who might find that what we did may help you, as well.