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Old 03-17-2005, 01:27 PM   #1
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Wink Miscellaneous Pet Questions

I have suddenly developed some pet problems. I know that many of you are pet owners and most of those (I hope) are pet lovers. So I thought where better to start my web research. I intend to not be conquered by my pet problems.And I want the best for the animals as well.

I have 2 male dogs. Neither castrated nor neutered (Is there a difference?). Dalmation approx 12-14 years old.
Boxer age unknown but vet-estimate at 18-24 months.
The Dalmaltion has for the last few weeks shown signs (I think) of being into his final times.
The Boxer has just been acquired and has heartworms and intestinal worms.

Previous owner took Boxer to a who vet gave a shot for the intestinals a month ago and said it should clear up, it hasn’t. Vet is in another city so I won’t return for “warranty” . At same time the vet tested and found presence of heartworms.

The Boxer was going to be turned in to the Humane society by a friend (previous owner) who couldn't afford to treat the heartworm problems and I agreed to see if the dog would fit in here for a month trial. I like the dog but am not keen on spending the $450-$550 for heartworm treatment unless he fits in (bonds) here. I am unsure that the Humane society will provide that heartworm treatment if they get the dog. I do know they will castrate him if they choose to spare him at all.

That exhorbitant cost for the heartworm treatments is astounding to me, but I don’t really need those Fantastic Fans anyway for now.


I have possessed a number of dogs since my childhood. (long ago)
None that I recall died of old age, although many lived into old age before meeting some accidental end. None were ever put down (out of their misery) intentionally.


My questions will have to do with all the above. But first can any of you recommend a great website that is attended to on occasion by real Veterinarians ? Maybe a Q&A type of forum or discussion group? Also seeking just a realistic* pet (preferably dog) forum? Although I also have an old cat.

By realistic I mean NOT one of the maudlin “Pets = Human Childeren” places, I am fond of both pets and chillin in general but have met many of both groups that I prefer never to see, smell, or hear again. I also know the difference in the two and don’t think either should be raised or treated particularly like the other.


The Dalmation suddenly seems to have gone near deaf and has acquired a pronounced stiffness of movement which seems to be hip related. He spends most of his day just sleeping and is often mistaken for dead when I try to arouse him. However he slowly rises and gets going. (sort of like me). This came on rather suddenly a few weeks ago. Oddly I found him out (of fenced yard) when I returned home one day. That was about the time his “health” changed. He seemed ok but I fear that maybe some neighborhood bastard may have kicked him or hit him. Or maybe a car hit him, but he shows no abrasion nor particular tenderness around hip area. I have a tentative vet appointment for Dalmation this weekend.

Can’t take both dogs at one time for various reasons. Boxer will have to wait another week or so for interesting reason (more on that later).

Can any of you describe the shutting down process of a declining dog?
Also need advice on both worm problems.
Any other thoughts and comments of course will be welcomed.

I know that this has nothing to do with Airstreams but please note I placed it in the Pet Forum which is part of the Community Forum.


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Flicka
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:50 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HitnMiss
I have suddenly developed some pet problems. I know that many of you are pet owners and most of those (I hope) are pet lovers. So I thought where better to start my web research. I intend to not be conquered by my pet problems.And I want the best for the animals as well.

I have 2 male dogs. Neither castrated nor neutered (Is there a difference?). Dalmation approx 12-14 years old.
Boxer age unknown but vet-estimate at 18-24 months.
The Dalmaltion has for the last few weeks shown signs (I think) of being into his final times.
The Boxer has just been acquired and has heartworms and intestinal worms.

Previous owner took Boxer to a who vet gave a shot for the intestinals a month ago and said it should clear up, it hasn’t. Vet is in another city so I won’t return for “warranty” . At same time the vet tested and found presence of heartworms.

The Boxer was going to be turned in to the Humane society by a friend (previous owner) who couldn't afford to treat the heartworm problems and I agreed to see if the dog would fit in here for a month trial. I like the dog but am not keen on spending the $450-$550 for heartworm treatment unless he fits in (bonds) here. I am unsure that the Humane society will provide that heartworm treatment if they get the dog. I do know they will castrate him if they choose to spare him at all.

That exhorbitant cost for the heartworm treatments is astounding to me, but I don’t really need those Fantastic Fans anyway for now.


I have possessed a number of dogs since my childhood. (long ago)
None that I recall died of old age, although many lived into old age before meeting some accidental end. None were ever put down (out of their misery) intentionally.


My questions will have to do with all the above. But first can any of you recommend a great website that is attended to on occasion by real Veterinarians ? Maybe a Q&A type of forum or discussion group? Also seeking just a realistic* pet (preferably dog) forum? Although I also have an old cat.

By realistic I mean NOT one of the maudlin “Pets = Human Childeren” places, I am fond of both pets and chillin in general but have met many of both groups that I prefer never to see, smell, or hear again. I also know the difference in the two and don’t think either should be raised or treated particularly like the other.


The Dalmation suddenly seems to have gone near deaf and has acquired a pronounced stiffness of movement which seems to be hip related. He spends most of his day just sleeping and is often mistaken for dead when I try to arouse him. However he slowly rises and gets going. (sort of like me). This came on rather suddenly a few weeks ago. Oddly I found him out (of fenced yard) when I returned home one day. That was about the time his “health” changed. He seemed ok but I fear that maybe some neighborhood bastard may have kicked him or hit him. Or maybe a car hit him, but he shows no abrasion nor particular tenderness around hip area. I have a tentative vet appointment for Dalmation this weekend.

Can’t take both dogs at one time for various reasons. Boxer will have to wait another week or so for interesting reason (more on that later).

Can any of you describe the shutting down process of a declining dog?
Also need advice on both worm problems.
Any other thoughts and comments of course will be welcomed.

I know that this has nothing to do with Airstreams but please note I placed it in the Pet Forum which is part of the Community Forum.


Thanks
Your friend
Flicka
Hi Flicka,

I am a Veterinarian, who recently retired from Veterinary Practice. I can recommend a great site for you to pose your questions. Go to http://www.veterinarypartner.com/ , then follow the directions to get a free consultation by a veterinarian. This site is run by Veterinary Information Network, the parent network, which I have subscribed to for years for Veterinarians.

Just some comments on your thoughts on heartworm treatment cost. The treatment itself can kill a dog by virtue of the worms dying in the heart and migrating from the pulmonary arteries into the lungs, causing all kinds of damage to the lungs. It can be a high risk/cost treatment not to be taken lightly. Also, the patient must be monitored in the hospital during treatment and kept quiet. Preliminary blood tests and x-rays are indicated to evaluate the heart, lungs, and organs to help determine how much damage has been done to these organs prior to treatment and to help give the owner a prognosis how well the patient should do. Some of these dogs are already in heart or kidney failure prior to treatment and their risk of dying is greater.

Hope this helps,

Jim Jordan
Retired veterinarian (and enjoying it)
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Old 03-17-2005, 02:54 PM   #3
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It doesn't sound to me like you have any problems that you can handle without the help of a good vet. If my elderly dog was showing a change in behavior, I'd have him at the vet THIS AFTERNOON, not tentatively in a week. Likewise, I wouldn't be sitting on the heartworm problem too long without real advice from someone who has examined the dog. I'm not sure you can get any real help for either of your problems online just by talking about it.
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Old 03-17-2005, 04:10 PM   #4
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We had a dalmation which passed somewhere between his 11th and 12th year of life. His decline occured shortly after consuming an entire box of Milk Bones, which I don't believe was the cause, but it was an event I remember that marked his downturn. He suddenly found it difficult to walk, a similar pronounced stiffness as you described. After 3 days of this I was about to take him to the vet when he suddenly expired. We never knew what had happened.

We put down our 16 yr old shitzu-poo Smokey last June, a couple of weeks after the midwest forums rally. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and had been unable to eat for almost a week. Our vet told us that while they might be able to nurse him through his crisis at that moment, his quality of life would be on a steep downward slope. It was extremely difficult for us to do since he probably was the best dog we ever owned. I think we all felt we that for all he had given us, it was only fitting to not prolong any further suffering and discomfort at that point.

I think that's a big part of what you will have to deal with. And a vet should be able to sit down and tell you what the bottom line is. Ours didn't try to influence either way. He just told us about what he could do and while heroic efforts could possibly bring our pooch out of his current crisis, his prognosis of staying well was just not there. He was willing to try. Once you have that conversation, you do what is best for your pet.

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Old 03-17-2005, 05:06 PM   #5
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maybe dals and airstreams go together....i've had both too...actually the only dogs i've had are dals for nearly 30 years. long time member of the dca.

a couple of observations....

first there is no "o" in dalmatian.......
just like californian or texan....
dalmatian ends with "an".....
get it right folks!!!!

secondly 11-14 is pretty average life span and older dogs often have spine/hip stiffness from arthritic changes......slow to get up and get going; poor tolerance of the cold and of course sleep lots. if the dal is otherwise healthy an anti inflammatory med can make a huge difference but see a vet and have lab work done first....even steroids can be a blessing to an old dog with arthritis, but get labs done to monitor any side effects of medication. many old dogs can be given a small regular dose or prednisone and seem like puppies again for the last stage of life.

sudden decline in those older year dals is often renal failure. again simple lab work from the vet will rule this in or out....while there may not be much to do about it if it's extreme....at least you know 'why' the dal is sick. usually under $100 to do the diagnositic labs.

mild renal decline can be helped with a very low protein diet. again this is a long standing issue with dals as too much protein in the diet is a real bad thing for this breed.....they have a renal structure that is slightly different than all other dogs and excrete different nitrogen by products so reducing protein is a well known benefit for long term health.

dals don't go deaf at an older again any more than any other breed. all older dogs can have reduced vision, hearing, balance and so on....so seeing a vet that understands the aging process and can offer options is important. again if the dog is in pain, this must be dealt with using meds or other compasionate methods. sick dogs are less responsive and sleep more, but you need an exam/labs to know why.

there are lots of good dal sites that deal with this unique breed, but you'll have to spell is correctly to find them...try the dalmatian club of america which has lots of links for health issues....but not right now.

lastly why haven't your gone to the vet yet? any sudden change that results in a decline should be checked out asap 1 day can make a huge difference if infection or internal injury is the issue.

dogs can't tell you why there're sick....get to the vet.

and i agree the treatment for heartworms is often very hard on the dog and can be fatal. if you cannot afford the treatment or don't want the dog to experience the issues of treatment, then the dog should be put down right away, so there is not potential for it to spread this condition.....that's the most humane thing to do.

cheers
2air
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Old 03-17-2005, 10:34 PM   #6
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I don't know anything about heartworm but I do know a little bit about Boxers. I have 2.If either of mine had a major health problem like this I would spend the $500 in a heartbeat. I know that if you can save this little guy you'll be grateful for many years to come because of the happiness he will bring you. If you want to learn more about Boxers there is a good site called boxerworld, they have a good forum with a lot of knowledgable people. I hope your Dal gets over this and and stays around a couple more years. Like Stephanie said though, I would get them both in ASAP. Good luck!
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:22 AM   #7
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Hi Flicka - Just a couple of thoughts - If you need veterinary care for either of your dogs but aren't able to afford vet procedures you might want to get in touch with organizations relating to the specific breeds that you own. I don't know much about Boxer and Dalmatian clubs but several Collie clubs that we belong to have funds set aside to help people afford treatment. If you decide not the Boxer doesn't work out you might want to consider contacting a Boxer rescue group about placing him - don't know if the heartworm issue would be a problem here. If your Dal checks out okay at your vets you also might want to consider putting him on glucosamine and/or chondroiton sulfate. I can tell you first hand that it has made a huge difference in dealing with arthritis for us. I've been giving it to all 3 of them (2 collies, 1 5yrs, 1 12 yrs, 1 mini Poodle, 7 yrs) every day for 5 years now and the 12 year old, while a little slower than he used to be, is in wonderful shape. I buy them in bulk through pet catalogues - ask your vet about them. They are a lot cheaper than a prescription such as cox2 inhibitor like Rimidyl and much safer too. Good luck with your dogs and let us know what happens.
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Old 03-20-2005, 08:39 AM   #8
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Heartworms

All of this talk has caused me to have my dogs start on heart worm preventative. We don't have a lot of trouble with it up here, (Illinois) but we do hope to start some travels.

Our "new" rescue dog ( 7 weeks ago) had been tested and takes a once a month pill. She came from warmer Arkansas. So I will keep that up, and have an appt. to get Dilly tested and started tomorrow. (Monday)


So some good has come from this original post. Two little girl JRTs in Illinois thank you all.
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingo-kid1
All of this talk has caused me to have my dogs start on heart worm preventative. We don't have a lot of trouble with it up here, (Illinois) but we do hope to start some travels.
The vets here in STL have been advising keeping up the preventative year round.

Jack
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:47 PM   #10
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You're right

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera
The vets here in STL have been advising keeping up the preventative year round.

Jack

Jack, you're right about that, but here in Northern IL it's NOT advised that you HAVE to keep it up. WE don't have that many skeeter months.

What IS is advised is to have new testing every year, so keeping up the prevent is by far the easiest thing to do, both common sense-wise as well as monetarily.
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Old 03-23-2005, 04:35 PM   #11
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Wink Update

First let me thank all of you responders very very much. The web sites have been wonderful additions and learning sources. I will use them for years to come.

Also didn't mind the spelling lesson, though somehow I just can't find time to feel any shame for spelling Dalmatian as dalmation. It's the dog not the vowel that matters to me.

The Dal has been "diagnosed" as either having disc problem possibly with arthritis as well or something called degenerative myelopathy.
No Xrays taken as yet. That was the Vets call not mine. She said that my Dal would need to be sedated for the Xrays and that would entail some pre-sedation tests etc. (more on that later)
She put the dog on 2 a day 75mg Rimadyl ($41.00 for 30). Wants me to monitor the dog for two weeks to see whether improvement and report back for followup.
Vet says deafness (or partial deafness) and lameness not related. I asked about brain injury and Vet said almost always it would also effect the front legs.(No frontal problems observed). She says the dog is in remarkable good shape for his age. Still has excellent muscle tone in hips and rear legs.
The dog still almost drags me on occasion when I walk him on leash.

The dog has been on the Rimadyl for 4 days now and I see little or no change in his gait yet. But the dog must feel better (less pain maybe) as he is more active and much less lethargic.
I have read the data that came with the drug and checked around to see what the going prices are on it. Seems the price is anywhere from 27.00 to 48.00 for the 75mg. There is also some discussion out there that it is pretty hard to discontinue from the dog's point of view. Not sure that means addictive or not in the dog world.
Actually not sure why just plain coated aspirin would not do the same thing, but will try to find out.

As for the Heartworm problem and the Boxer, I have learned much and the Vet was very helpful and optimistic (due to the young age of the Boxer) and treatment will prob start within 10 days. Unfortunately there are about a dozen different protocols and opinions that I have heard from various vet clinics. One of the probs is that this Boxer is VERY energetic and active and MUST be kept quiet for 3 weeks after the initial HW treatment.

For those of you that have implied that I may not be able to afford to take care of my pets, with all due respect let me say..."rest easy". I don't take on responsibilities that I can not maintain very often. I took the Boxer for the sole reason that the other party could not take care of it knowing of course that it was apparently infected. However one of the reasons I can afford to help the dog is that I am careful and very inquisative about who and where and why I spend my hard earned money.

For many years I used an old Cow Doctor (country vet) for my pets. They all seemed to live long and do well. I never quibbled with what I considered to be very fair pricing with no hard sells for any bells & whistles I didn't need.
He did not even sell food at his place and we both bought our dog food at the farmers co-op. Salt of the earth guy who lived very well and made plenty of money apparently. Sadly he retired with health probs and returned to his Mississippi homeland. Now I find nothing but "what else can we sell you marketing" at all the Vet clinics I investigate. I'm not saying it's exactly a racket, but it seems to be on its way there. You know MDs jacked up their prices years ago and claimed (somewhat rightfully) that it was due to Liability Insurance costs. Is this the excuse with Vet care? How many malpractice suits are there annually against Veterinarians? So I do not have any apologies nor reservations about being frugal with my pet expenditures and doing my research. And if everyone else would be so as well the prices would come down.

Thanks and I will keep the thread informed as to the further results.

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Old 03-23-2005, 04:44 PM   #12
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Hi Flicka! I'm glad to hear the vet is trying to help. I hope you didn't take things the wrong way, as some on this forum can be a little harsh sometimes, or may come off that way. I lost a pet that might have been saved if I hadn't ignored the symptoms and taken them in sooner, so I am a big proponent of finding a good vet and using them whenever in doubt.

Good vets are hard to find, I have the same problem around here. If I can find one I trust to take care of my pets right, I'll pay whatever it takes to go to them. Some of our 'country' vets treat the dogs like they are just another piece of farm equipment, and if they don't last, well, there's always another one to take their place - not exactly the attitude I'm looking for.

Good luck with both of them, I hope they both turn out ok. Sounds like the dal has a few more years left in him
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Old 03-23-2005, 06:40 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=HitnMiss]Now I find nothing but "what else can we sell you marketing" at all the Vet clinics I investigate. I'm not saying it's exactly a racket, but it seems to be on its way there. You know MDs jacked up their prices years ago and claimed (somewhat rightfully) that it was due to Liability Insurance costs. Is this the excuse with Vet care? How many malpractice suits are there annually against Veterinarians?


Well, here's a thought:
It takes as long, and cost as much, to become a veterinarian as it does to become an M.D!
I have, indeed, known of malpractice suits brought against vets. Usually breeding stock involved, and some high dollar breeding stock at that! Doesn't take much to add up.... my standard poodle bitch would be valued at better than $20k.
Most vets keep prices low as they can, but the profit from those side items, ie, food, toys, greenies, etc. makes a big difference in what the practice takes in.
Oh! And before I forget, most vet assistants need to be certified, and the vet has to have so many hours of CEU's each year!
Heartworm is cheaper to prevent than to treat. If you do not want to pay for monthly heartworm chewables, investigate using Ivermectin (swine & cattle, reg.) from Farm & Fleet.
As for the rimidyl, we allow it's use only when nothing else will be effective! It has some nasty side effects, and is contraindicated in some breeds!
Heartworm treatment is basically poisoning the dog while it kills the worms! It is very hard on the dogs, but most survive and do very well.
If the dog is not crate trained, begin now as you will find it an enormous aid in keeping the dog quiet as it recovers.
All the best to you and puppers!

Elizabeth in Iowa
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Old 03-23-2005, 10:01 PM   #14
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good to read about the help and progress

hitnmiss,

you wrote:
"Dalmation suddenly seems to have gone near deaf and has acquired a pronounced stiffness of movement which seems to be hip related. He spends most of his day just sleeping and is often mistaken for dead when I try to arouse him. However he slowly rises and gets going. (sort of like me). This came on rather suddenly a few weeks ago. Oddly I found him out (of fenced yard) when I returned home one day. That was about the time his “health” changed. He seemed ok but I fear that maybe some neighborhood bastard may have kicked him or hit him. Or maybe a car hit him, but he shows no abrasion nor particular tenderness around hip area. I have a tentative vet appointment for Dalmation this weekend.

Can’t take both dogs at one time for various reasons. Boxer will have to wait another week or so for interesting reason (more on that later).

Can any of you describe the shutting down process of a declining dog?
Also need advice on both worm problems.
Any other thoughts and comments of course will be welcomed."



to paraphrase:
......dog became suddenly deaf and mistaken for dead, may have been abused or struck by a car, can someone described the dieing process of an old dog? can't take both to vet, one will have to wait.........

the only thing i see in the replys to your post are suggestions for help, concern for the dogs and observations that cost may be an issue....you asked for advice and got it.....and it's all good.

while many folks spell dal incorrectly my spelling lesson was just a light hearted way to remind all that..... there's no 'o' in the breed name.....

same sort of observation if the post had been about ayrstreems.....

as for doctors and vets raising prices.....
so have carpenters, mechanics, truck dealers, plumbers, insurance companies, barbers and airstream.....hummm could this be a trend?

happy to hear the dogs are being well cared for. while you seem doubtful that the medication has helped, if the dog has gone from "near dead" to "more active", that would suggest benefit beyond time since you'd already waited several weeks. maybe once he/she improves the rimadyl doses can be spaced longer.

there are many anti inflam. medications in a variety of classes. aspirin is in a different class and is not a substitue for rimadyl in most situations. also to get the same effect from aspirin would require dosing at a level where side effects would become an issue. the dogs do not be addicted to rimadyl, but if the spinal ailment doesn't improve there pain continues and the medication provides relief.....which leads to more activity, alertness and so on.

stick with the guidance of a qualified vet and good luck.

2air


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