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Old 08-26-2004, 10:43 AM   #15
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Yes, shots are implicated, especially in children under 5. I had many shots for living in the phillippines at 18 months in 1950, and then the rabies series at 3, mono for 6 months at age 5. Many of us have had similar experiences at a young age. Yet I was a reasonably healthy functioning adult until my apt was sprayed without notice with pesticides ,now banned. I went very rapidly downhill in several months, making the final cause ,the final straw-very noticible.
I'll try to get CA natural foods. TX except for Austin, seems pretty unaware. (I lived in the Berkeley-Santa Cruz area for 21 years!). Thank you for your help. suz P.S. I had a lot of reservations sending my 20 year old son off for rabies series this week, but a feral dog bite in Mexico, seemed to warrent it. He had no shots except for tetanus until he was almost 6, as I knew of the implications.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:49 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by silver suz
Yes, shots are implicated, especially in children under 5. I had many shots for living in the phillippines at 18 months in 1950, and then the rabies series at 3, mono for 6 months at age 5. Many of us have had similar experiences at a young age. Yet I was a reasonably healthy functioning adult until my apt was sprayed without notice with pesticides ,now banned. I went very rapidly downhill in several months, making the final cause ,the final straw-very noticible.
I'll try to get CA natural foods. TX except for Austin, seems pretty unaware. (I lived in the Berkeley-Santa Cruz area for 21 years!). Thank you for your help. suz P.S. I had a lot of reservations sending my 20 year old son off for rabies series this week, but a feral dog bite in Mexico, seemed to warrent it. He had no shots except for tetanus until he was almost 6, as I knew of the implications.
It's all cumulative IMHO. A lady was sprayed with Sevin here a while ago and is taking the sprayer to court. She fell apart after the incident and is now completey disabled.

I hope you can find some peace with your health... Have you tried NAET? There are those in Santa Fe that swear by it.

Best regards,
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Old 08-26-2004, 11:24 AM   #17
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I would like to point out that most of the dogs were near 5 years old at the event is my understanding. Big dog breeds life expectancy is around 10. So these dogs are nearing a elderly status.
============================
Good points, all. But the life expectancy varies radically from breed to breed, and line to line within the breed. But. Most large breeds (not the Giant breeds like Irish Wolfhounds) are considered Seniors when they reach 6 years of age. A well trained SAR (Search And Rescue) dog begins its public service life at about age three or four. Before beginning service, the hips must be certified to be sure the dog is free from dysplacia, and this is generally done at age two, at least for OFA registry. But notice, I did say BEGINS its SAR public life at age three or four; many work six years or longer. A lot of work, money, and effort are put into training these dogs. And to the best of my knowledge,is all volunteer! In fact, handlers PAY to go to workshops, and working camps! And I have never met a SAR handler that was not super protective of its dog.

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Old 08-26-2004, 12:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 87MH

Read my lips.....Dry Dog Food Is Crap -- literally.

Take a lead from the top breeders and trainers of show and performance dogs.....feed a natural diet.
========================

Define 'top breeders and trainers'
Name names; WHICH top breeders and trainers?
Name breeds which, exactly, breeds are you familir with, what is your relationship to the top people in this field? What is the percentage of top breeders, as defined by a national breed club, that feed a 'natural diet'?
========================

Show and performance dogs fed the commercial dry diets (popularized in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) have exhibited a difficult time breeding true to lines - or even breeding at all!
========================

Please cite the sources of this statement, and the breeds involved.
===========================

Entire lines are dying out
=====================

Again, what lines in what breeds? Your source?
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and I, for one, think that a huge contributor to the problem is "manufactured" diets. Multiple breeds have exhibited abnormal difficulties with pregnancy, whelping, and birth defects.
==============================

What is the source of this information? What problems with pregnancy, whelping, and birth defects? Be specific,please.
===============================

Also, problems with coat, teeth, bad breath, weight and odor (I have 5 dogs in a relatively small back yard, and I defy anyone to detect a "doggy smell" in the house or kennel) are all but eliminated.
================================

Hmmm. I'll give you the part about teeth, mainly because of the bone component in the BARF diet... BARF means Bones And Raw Food.... but that happens whether or not the rest of the regimine is followed. Clean teeth help with bad breath, but may not eliminate all sources of the problem. Now, cite your sources for the coat, weight, and odor, please.
=================================

I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives".
===========================

Great! But I have seen the same changes in rescue dogs fed a nutritionaly balanced diet, given attention and training, showered with love, not raw diet!
===========================

In the first half of the last century, before "off the grocery store shelf" dry foods became popular, there was hardly any mention of the above mentioned difficulties in the books I have read.
===========================

That was also a time when the concept of 'pet' or 'companion animal' was way different, and a time when most dogs had a much shorter life span! Are you sure you want to use this argument?
===========================

Let's face it, the "dog food" manufacturers want to maximize profit (that's the American Way), so they put "just" enough nutrient into the mixture to allow the dog to appear to thrive - and don't worry about the toxin load.
===========================

Let'snot tar all food manufacturers with the same brush. There are several brands that have excellent diets available.
===========================

I feed the pups human quality food,
===========================
What do you mean by human quality food?
==========================
keeping in mind the differences of the digestive tracts of canines as compared to humans......remember that dogs are only tens of thousands of years (in most cases, much, much less) removed from the wild, and their systems thrive on what we would consider "repulsive" food......
==========================

If you are feeding food that has been processed at all, how natural is it, really? Or, are you whacking the poor chickens,ducks, lambs, bunnies, yourself, and feeding the entire carcass? If you are buying your protein source, chances are it has been killed, gutted (thus removing those valuable stomach contents from your dogs diet), skinned, and waste portions (such as horns, hooves, feathers, and nails) removed.
===========================

Give a dog a bone (BTW, that is a title of one of the many good natural food books)....what does it do with it? - Sometimes bury it? - You bet - and then dig it up to enjoy it after it has "aged".....it won't hurt them, their stomach "juices" are several times more acidic than humans, and they deal with "overly aged" meat just fine.
============================

Cite your sources. What is the p-h of a human stomach? What is the p-h of a canine gut? Ever eaten sauerbraten? This is a dish that was developed to cover the 'off' taste and smell of spoiled meat!
============================

So...consider a "natural diet", it's really not any more expensive than a "Premium" dry "in a bag" food........your dog (and your vet) will love you for it.
===========================

Depends. Human grade, table grade, dog food grade. None of these terms is well defined, and some may shock you by what is really meant! And if you really want to 'Go Natural' you may consider going Organic! Make sure none of those toxic things in feed wends its way into your dogs food chain. After all, even human food is chock-a-block full of those nasty things and preservatives, meat processed for human consumption is loaded with hormones and antibiotics..... (Removing tongue from cheek)
===========================

There - I came out of the closet.......I Feed My Dogs a Natural Diet....and I'm Proud of It!!!!!
============================

Great! I'm happy for you. And your dogs.
=============================

Checklist....soapbox put away, flame retardant shield is switched to the "on" position.
============================

No need for that, a flame suit. Just be prepared to back up what you claim with studies done by authorities in the field, in a manner recognized as valid by the scientific community.... blinds,double blinds, etc. Know how the results were obtained, what measurements were used, what the controls were. Make sure your sources are good, not some wacky person with a theory and an ax to grind. And make sure they are not annectdotal, such as your statement: I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives". How, exactly, was luster, brightness, and spring,defined and measured?

Looking forward to your citation of valid resources. Certainly hope and expect to see references cited in this manner:
1. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Incidence of and breed-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs.Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;216(1):40-45.9.

Oh! And please list YOUR credentials in this field!

Elizabeth in Iowa
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:24 PM   #19
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My own un-scientific test.....

Boxer, Male 75 lbs = 1976 - 1992 = 16 years old

Mutt/Corgy Female 24 lbs = 1987 - 2004 = 17 years old

Each feed Science brand program dog food, both dry and canned. 80% dry.


Reference:
1. BobbyW; 27 years of writing checks for food and vets.
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:27 PM   #20
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Rock on, Cedars! You make many good points. I have to say I am quite offended by a conversation begins with a discussion of dogs dying from exposures to toxins and someone pipes up and argues that it is because they weren't fed a natural diet. It is indicative of the attitude of many proponents of this BARF diet, that it is a cure-all for any ill your dog may encounter. While I do not disagree that a dog who is healthy is more likely to fend off diseases and to handle attacks on their systems from outside sources, I do not think it is even slightly reasonable to claim that a natural diet will protect an animal from something like we are talking about with the 9/11 SAR dogs. Not to mention the fact that diet wasn't mentioned at all in the research - many of these dogs may have been on a natural diet. We don't know.

Frankly, I disagree that diet has all that much to do with a dog's condition. I know an 11 year old Rott who has eaten nothing but Alpo and the 40# for $10 dry food her whole life and has never been sick a day. Which still doesn't mean I'd feed my dogs that diet. I think genetics, and lifestyle probably play just as big a part if not more.

I have no problem with people who want to feed their dogs a diet like this as long as they do it understanding the risks as well as the benefits, and that they do not make outrageous unsupported claims for their diet. I am tired of people (and I'm not even talking about anyone on this board) who tell me I am abusing my dogs by not feeding my dogs this way, just because I have weighed it out and decided the risk is not worth the possible benefits, which I consider to be small considering my dogs are already doing great on the high quality prepared diet they are on.

Saying things like 'if you can't be troubled to do this then you shouldn't even have a dog' are fighting words to me!
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:35 AM   #21
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The Post...

Hello All...
....I'm TOBY....Canny's Faithful Pup...He aint here at the moment, He's down at the Doc's....Hee Hee Hee...No-No, don't laugh...it aint funny...tho ALL of the lttl persons on their way 2 School thought it was...My master was walkin Me this mornin, when this S.O.B. IE : CAT...crossed My path....well being a PUP....I was only doin wot was natural 2 Me...I went 4 it...trouble was, I went around the telegraph pole ONE - WAY...& My master 4 some reason, went the other...the CAT decided 2 do a u turn, I jus thought if I carried on goin this away, My master will follow, after all, Yr VANS go where U GO, LOL it was'nt until I could'nt see, that I knew somethin was Wrong....Why Is master flat out on the pavement, & how did that lump get there...& what's, what's that red stuff...drippin from His Nose...& Why, why R all these Schoolies jus standin there laughing at My Master... Oh Dear !So I started 2 Shout, now I can shout very loud, when I need 2...
Now Our Friend BILL, Oh he's GOOD, He knows how 2 talk a lot, as He keeps My Master talkin 4 ages...especialy when it's rainin...sigh...He was jus comin out of His gate at the time...Say BILL, Bill over here....I Barked.
Bill kindly aided us both home...as He only lives a few homes away...& soon had My Master back on His feet, & the KETTLE ON...My Master's D/W heard the comotion & came from Her bed 2 find the 3 of us, sat watchin TV & drinkin T...Well Bill had 2 cups, 'cos He's Bill, & He kns BEST...so there...LOL
As 4 the DOG HOUSE..Yes my master is OFF work 2day, & He IS in it, I bet the doctor laughed abt it 2, I kn I I still r...Hee Hee hee...Toby.....
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Old 01-12-2005, 12:37 PM   #22
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Ok, you are nothing but trouble! From now on you may not leave the house without a padded suit and a helmet! And no driving for you either...
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Old 01-13-2005, 01:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedars
============================

No need for that, a flame suit. Just be prepared to back up what you claim with studies done by authorities in the field, in a manner recognized as valid by the scientific community.... blinds,double blinds, etc. Know how the results were obtained, what measurements were used, what the controls were. Make sure your sources are good, not some wacky person with a theory and an ax to grind. And make sure they are not annectdotal, such as your statement: I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives". How, exactly, was luster, brightness, and spring,defined and measured?

Looking forward to your citation of valid resources. Certainly hope and expect to see references cited in this manner:
1. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Incidence of and breed-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs.Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;216(1):40-45.9.

Oh! And please list YOUR credentials in this field!Elizabeth in Iowa

OK...I couldn't resist (it's a bit off my interest of AS's right now) ... but here goes.....I recently retired from 35 years in veterinary practice.....and......I've seen it all (doesn't mean I'm an expert, but I think I know a thing or two)!! Pet Nutrition has really improved over the years (to the pet's benefit)! The most common problems, (bar none), in feeding pets are the owners themselves!!!!! Our pets mirror us....by that I mean we are an obese society with our pets suffering the same obesity problems (no cholesterol issues, but diabetes, kidney disease, pancreatitis, gastro-intestinal problems ). Sure, pet food manufacturers have made mistakes in formulations in their diets (ex. taurine deficiency in cats causing cardiomyopathy), but most problems I've seen were from the owners thinking they knew what was good for their pet...while actually being trained by their pet)!
Pet feeding can be broken down into 4 categories....1. Growth 2. Adult Maintenance 3. Senior maintenance 4. Geriatric. On the first catagory-Growth....puppies would come into us on the initial visit with recommendations from the breeder (not all breeders) to add cottage cheese, raw hamburger, extra calcium tablets,etc to enhance their growth. Not anymore.....the pet food manufacturers have addressed all the growth needs of all breeds....no need to supplement! On catagory 2 Adult Maintenance......is the worst....the breeder is long gone.....the pet is begging under the dinner table, and all the plates are pre-cleaned by you-know-who, or the scraps are fed to the pet !
As to Quality of pet food.....you get what you pay for....generally the more expensive the food....the better and more digestable the ingriedients....enuf said! Most of the more expensive pet food manufacturers have done extensive feeding trials to prove their diets satisfy the nutrient requirements for the feeding category.
Now for categories 3 & 4 (seniors & geriatrics)......pet food manufacturers have done a great job in addressing issues such as kidney disease, diabetes, obesity, cognitive disorders, and arthritis......these diets work well!
As to Homemade Diets.....be careful.... (BARF-Bones and raw food) (BTW it takes a lot of time to prepare these right, and proportions are harder to figure out, but if you have the time, go for it!).......I don't disagree, except to say cook the meat...it's safer and the protein is more available for digestion (just like humans), supplement with vitamins...decrease the protein if kidney issues arise.
Now if you're wondering if I am guilty of misfeeding my pet......SURE....she gets my egg yolks in the morning and licks my plate in the evening We mirror each other.....we both need to lose weight!

PS.....(Just my observance) In all my years in veterinary practice, I've never seen a problem that I could identify from preservatives in pet food!

Jim Jordan, DVM
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:32 AM   #24
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Dr. Jordan,

Thank you for your advice on what to feed our pets. I found this to be very informative and appreciate the "expert" opinion of an experienced vet.
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Old 01-13-2005, 10:17 AM   #25
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Fed up....

Hello, Toby here...
...Mmm, My Master Canny, ( Chris )...IS A lot bttr 2day, & as The Good Dr. Kn's, Labradors DO SMILE...Well Mine IS ear-2-ear...it was so funny...but I'm still out 4 that C.A.T....
Well I DO My bit 4 the Under the table Brigade, I've bn knwn 2 Wash a few plates in My time, & I Always drink My Masters TEA, well He falls asleep in His chair, well, it's MY chair realy, I jus let Him use it once in a while....it's a shame 2 waist good Tea...
My Master feeds Me real FOOD...propper doggy food, it's Yummy, but I do get a few tasty treats tooo...Mmmm, yum, yum...now bein the 7 of us here, I kn Who's the softest touch 4 a few munchies...funny how my master always says NO when I already eaten it...He's gotta B a LOT quicker than that with Me, when it comes 2 the peckin order...
I was yappin with a Friend of Mine, & He told Me a joke...Wanna hear it..?
"Q"...How DO U stop Yr Master drownin, if He falls in2 the River...
"A"...Take yr PAW off His Head...
Well 'cos My Master aint 2 well, He only took Me 4 lttl walk 2day, We usualy go for abt an hour or more...& I kept HIM on HIS Leash...Well He'ld have a great time in the woods with ALL those Trees, kinda like a PINBALL Game...Goodness kns what mess He may of got in2...LOL....Toby.....
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Old 01-13-2005, 03:51 PM   #26
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Feeding your dog or cat a human grade natural food will help their health and prolong their life. I sell Holistic all natural dog and cat food. The brands are California Natural, Innova,ANF, Wysong,Canidae, Felidae, Precise, Solid Gold, Spots Stew,Simply Natural and Evangers. Learn more about foods visit www.api4animals.org. Article about What's Really in Commerical Pet Foods.
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Old 01-13-2005, 06:45 PM   #27
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Contraversial Topic

First I am NO EXPERT and do not claim to be However I offer only my experience with my dogs - I have cared and owned dogs since I was a little girl and still do.

I like many others have gone along merrily with the hip products for your dog based on everyone else's opinions be they expert, Waco's, passed on by generations, and common sense.

So let me tell you about a little story - and no offense to the DVM

Golden #1 dies age 8 cancer
Golden #2 dies age 8 cancer
Lab #1 following vaccinations becomes deathly ill with all symptoms of Parvo and Distemper (Vaccine reactions were not even considered back then as that important - 6 years ago) Pretty much confirmed by several later DVM's that that is what Taz suffered from.

Now there are two issues I am working toward 1. being my Goldens dying TOO young We know the get the love and the exercise so only three other things can affect their health - Diet, Medical Regime, and physical environment.

Diet does play an important role in a dogs well being - but something many activists forget is every dog is different - what works for one may not work for another - thus you DO need to do your research and you better know what you are doing if you take them off a "balanced" nutrient food source - what ever it may be Quality Kibble, Poor Kibble, Raw or Fresh prepared. If you are not prepared to take a base blood test and monitor your pet closely you can easily run into deficiencies and overdoses of various minerals and vitamins causing even greater health issues and long term damage to organs and systems.

Vaccinations - have been a (now) proven concern for the overall health of a dog/pet. From the get go the multiple type vaccines are now being pared down and spread out over several years. Immune systems are very delicate things - and as puppies being bombarded on such a grueling schedule was in itself barbaric and naive on the DVM's part. Yes the good old "buck" had a lot to do with this - but thank God for those DVM's that really cared for their patients and became the activists to push the higher ups to take a close look at the research that had been done.

For years our Taz suffered from terrible itchy skin, ear infections, poor coat and skin - we tried everything and spent $1000's at the Vet. It was not until we lost our second Golden to cancer that I went on a crusade! That was enough! I spent months combing the Internet talking to various specialists, breeders, groomers, government types in the farming industry and the list goes on. (yes it was a bit of a crusade to settle the aching heart and to find answers to that big WHY when you loose a fur-baby) But boy did I learn allot.

Without going in to huge detail - I hit on an issue with Taz that was so simple - Allergies - now many people can claim allergies for this and that - but not many actually go through the allergy testing and pay the big bucks for it. Well I thought $300 was a pretty good trade off for the $3000+ we spent in a year on ear infections, prednisone and you name it - it was pushed on us by our DVM's and we trusted them.

It turned out that Taz was allergic to yeast level 4 and two level 3's to Mold from trees and such. It was the yeast that was causing the big one and guess what even down to the meds they put her on - with penicillin - a yeast based medication.

We switched Taz's diet first to a natural fresh diet not the full blown BARF but fairly close - to shock her system and provide us with an avenue to control the yeast free diet. She changed within 2 weeks! Not 100% but enough to know we were on the right track. It would take at least a year for her immune system to build and level off. We then found a natural dog food that was yeast Free - the ONLY one we can find anywhere in North-America called Wellness - by Mother Hubbard. Taz now only suffers from the mold in the Fall - and this fall being so mild - affected her more than normal. We do watch her because all dogs manufacture their own yeast and it is hard to avoid the allergies within.

We also changed her Vaccination regime and have maintained regular blood tests - to provide a heads up on any major health issues. It has been 2 years now - and we have had to take her to the Vet only for her "shots" and her annual physical.

Haily was also brought up differently and her puppy vaccinations were spread out over a year rather than ganged in a 3 month span. We also separate the shots and do not use the 5 in 1 deals. Yes it costs more - only because the visit is $45 every time - but in the long run we believe we have a stronger dog with less Vet visits. Only time will tell.

Our Vet now is very interested in the nutrition and has taken on the new vaccine protocols - it is just a shame that some of the protocols take so long to get out to the general public - when the results have been known for 2-3 years before they are put in place.

Sorry this has been a long post.

Just remember Human 1 can eat healthy and exercise never drink or smoke and then die at the age of 50 Human 2 can eat like $%^%&&, smoke like a chimney, and watch every episode of you know what and live to the ripe old age of 104..... Dogs/Pets are the same.

e live in a Toxic world that are present in our homes, in their play toys, in their food (and ours) in their medications but not in the love we give them.

And that is why we bought our Girls an Airstream Trailer! So they could live their lives to the fullest - and travel the world - well okay North-America
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:41 AM   #28
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It makes my heart fell good that you did your home work on your dogs health. Very few humans ever do as much as you have. Thank you for the great post.
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