Fourteen...

[canny_banjo_man]

Hello All...
....I'm TOBY....Canny's Faithful Pup...He aint here at the moment, He's down at the Doc's....Hee Hee Hee...No-No, don't laugh...it aint funny...tho ALL of the lttl persons on their way 2 School thought it was...My master was walkin Me this mornin, when this S.O.B. IE : CAT...crossed My path....well being a PUP....I was only doin wot was natural 2 Me...I went 4 it...trouble was, I went around the telegraph pole ONE - WAY...& My master 4 some reason, went the other...the CAT decided 2 do a u turn, I jus thought if I carried on goin this away, My master will follow, after all, Yr VANS go where U GO, LOL it was'nt until I could'nt see, that I knew somethin was Wrong....Why Is master flat out on the pavement, & how did that lump get there...& what's, what's that red stuff...drippin from His Nose...& Why, why R all these Schoolies jus standin there laughing at My Master... Oh Dear !So I started 2 Shout, now I can shout very loud, when I need 2...
Now Our Friend BILL, Oh he's GOOD, He knows how 2 talk a lot, as He keeps My Master talkin 4 ages...especialy when it's rainin...sigh...He was jus comin out of His gate at the time...Say BILL, Bill over here....I Barked.
Bill kindly aided us both home...as He only lives a few homes away...& soon had My Master back on His feet, & the KETTLE ON...My Master's D/W heard the comotion & came from Her bed 2 find the 3 of us, sat watchin TV & drinkin T...Well Bill had 2 cups, 'cos He's Bill, & He kns BEST...so there...LOL
As 4 the DOG HOUSE..Yes my master is OFF work 2day, & He IS in it, I bet the doctor laughed abt it 2, I kn I I still r...Hee Hee hee...Toby.....

[Stefrobrts]

Ok, you are nothing but trouble! From now on you may not leave the house without a padded suit and a helmet! And no driving for you either...

[jordandvm]

Originally Posted by Cedars

============================

No need for that, a flame suit. Just be prepared to back up what you claim with studies done by authorities in the field, in a manner recognized as valid by the scientific community.... blinds,double blinds, etc. Know how the results were obtained, what measurements were used, what the controls were. Make sure your sources are good, not some wacky person with a theory and an ax to grind. And make sure they are not annectdotal, such as your statement: I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives". How, exactly, was luster, brightness, and spring,defined and measured?

Looking forward to your citation of valid resources. Certainly hope and expect to see references cited in this manner:
1. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Incidence of and breed-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs.Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;216(1):40-45.9.

Oh! And please list YOUR credentials in this field!Elizabeth in Iowa

OK...I couldn't resist (it's a bit off my interest of AS's right now) ... but here goes.....I recently retired from 35 years in veterinary practice.....and......I've seen it all (doesn't mean I'm an expert, but I think I know a thing or two)!! Pet Nutrition has really improved over the years (to the pet's benefit)! The most common problems, (bar none), in feeding pets are the owners themselves!!!!! Our pets mirror us....by that I mean we are an obese society with our pets suffering the same obesity problems (no cholesterol issues, but diabetes, kidney disease, pancreatitis, gastro-intestinal problems ). Sure, pet food manufacturers have made mistakes in formulations in their diets (ex. taurine deficiency in cats causing cardiomyopathy), but most problems I've seen were from the owners thinking they knew what was good for their pet...while actually being trained by their pet)!
Pet feeding can be broken down into 4 categories....1. Growth 2. Adult Maintenance 3. Senior maintenance 4. Geriatric. On the first catagory-Growth....puppies would come into us on the initial visit with recommendations from the breeder (not all breeders) to add cottage cheese, raw hamburger, extra calcium tablets,etc to enhance their growth. Not anymore.....the pet food manufacturers have addressed all the growth needs of all breeds....no need to supplement! On catagory 2 Adult Maintenance......is the worst....the breeder is long gone.....the pet is begging under the dinner table, and all the plates are pre-cleaned by you-know-who, or the scraps are fed to the pet !
As to Quality of pet food.....you get what you pay for....generally the more expensive the food....the better and more digestable the ingriedients....enuf said! Most of the more expensive pet food manufacturers have done extensive feeding trials to prove their diets satisfy the nutrient requirements for the feeding category.
Now for categories 3 & 4 (seniors & geriatrics)......pet food manufacturers have done a great job in addressing issues such as kidney disease, diabetes, obesity, cognitive disorders, and arthritis......these diets work well!
As to Homemade Diets.....be careful.... (BARF-Bones and raw food) (BTW it takes a lot of time to prepare these right, and proportions are harder to figure out, but if you have the time, go for it!).......I don't disagree, except to say cook the meat...it's safer and the protein is more available for digestion (just like humans), supplement with vitamins...decrease the protein if kidney issues arise.
Now if you're wondering if I am guilty of misfeeding my pet......SURE....she gets my egg yolks in the morning and licks my plate in the evening We mirror each other.....we both need to lose weight!

PS.....(Just my observance) In all my years in veterinary practice, I've never seen a problem that I could identify from preservatives in pet food!

Jim Jordan, DVM

[kposey]

Dr. Jordan,

Thank you for your advice on what to feed our pets. I found this to be very informative and appreciate the "expert" opinion of an experienced vet.

[canny_banjo_man]

Hello, Toby here...
...Mmm, My Master Canny, ( Chris )...IS A lot bttr 2day, & as The Good Dr. Kn's, Labradors DO SMILE...Well Mine IS ear-2-ear...it was so funny...but I'm still out 4 that C.A.T....
Well I DO My bit 4 the Under the table Brigade, I've bn knwn 2 Wash a few plates in My time, & I Always drink My Masters TEA, well He falls asleep in His chair, well, it's MY chair realy, I jus let Him use it once in a while....it's a shame 2 waist good Tea...
My Master feeds Me real FOOD...propper doggy food, it's Yummy, but I do get a few tasty treats tooo...Mmmm, yum, yum...now bein the 7 of us here, I kn Who's the softest touch 4 a few munchies...funny how my master always says NO when I already eaten it...He's gotta B a LOT quicker than that with Me, when it comes 2 the peckin order...
I was yappin with a Friend of Mine, & He told Me a joke...Wanna hear it..?
"Q"...How DO U stop Yr Master drownin, if He falls in2 the River...
"A"...Take yr PAW off His Head...
Well 'cos My Master aint 2 well, He only took Me 4 lttl walk 2day, We usualy go for abt an hour or more...& I kept HIM on HIS Leash...Well He'ld have a great time in the woods with ALL those Trees, kinda like a PINBALL Game...Goodness kns what mess He may of got in2...LOL....Toby.....

[Hippo]

Feeding your dog or cat a human grade natural food will help their health and prolong their life. I sell Holistic all natural dog and cat food. The brands are California Natural, Innova,ANF, Wysong,Canidae, Felidae, Precise, Solid Gold, Spots Stew,Simply Natural and Evangers. Learn more about foods visit www.api4animals.org. Article about What's Really in Commerical Pet Foods.

[05ModPod]

First I am NO EXPERT and do not claim to be However I offer only my experience with my dogs - I have cared and owned dogs since I was a little girl and still do.

I like many others have gone along merrily with the hip products for your dog based on everyone else's opinions be they expert, Waco's, passed on by generations, and common sense.

So let me tell you about a little story - and no offense to the DVM

Golden #1 dies age 8 cancer
Golden #2 dies age 8 cancer
Lab #1 following vaccinations becomes deathly ill with all symptoms of Parvo and Distemper (Vaccine reactions were not even considered back then as that important - 6 years ago) Pretty much confirmed by several later DVM's that that is what Taz suffered from.

Now there are two issues I am working toward 1. being my Goldens dying TOO young We know the get the love and the exercise so only three other things can affect their health - Diet, Medical Regime, and physical environment.

Diet does play an important role in a dogs well being - but something many activists forget is every dog is different - what works for one may not work for another - thus you DO need to do your research and you better know what you are doing if you take them off a "balanced" nutrient food source - what ever it may be Quality Kibble, Poor Kibble, Raw or Fresh prepared. If you are not prepared to take a base blood test and monitor your pet closely you can easily run into deficiencies and overdoses of various minerals and vitamins causing even greater health issues and long term damage to organs and systems.

Vaccinations - have been a (now) proven concern for the overall health of a dog/pet. From the get go the multiple type vaccines are now being pared down and spread out over several years. Immune systems are very delicate things - and as puppies being bombarded on such a grueling schedule was in itself barbaric and naive on the DVM's part. Yes the good old "buck" had a lot to do with this - but thank God for those DVM's that really cared for their patients and became the activists to push the higher ups to take a close look at the research that had been done.

For years our Taz suffered from terrible itchy skin, ear infections, poor coat and skin - we tried everything and spent $1000's at the Vet. It was not until we lost our second Golden to cancer that I went on a crusade! That was enough! I spent months combing the Internet talking to various specialists, breeders, groomers, government types in the farming industry and the list goes on. (yes it was a bit of a crusade to settle the aching heart and to find answers to that big WHY when you loose a fur-baby) But boy did I learn allot.

Without going in to huge detail - I hit on an issue with Taz that was so simple - Allergies - now many people can claim allergies for this and that - but not many actually go through the allergy testing and pay the big bucks for it. Well I thought $300 was a pretty good trade off for the $3000+ we spent in a year on ear infections, prednisone and you name it - it was pushed on us by our DVM's and we trusted them.

It turned out that Taz was allergic to yeast level 4 and two level 3's to Mold from trees and such. It was the yeast that was causing the big one and guess what even down to the meds they put her on - with penicillin - a yeast based medication.

We switched Taz's diet first to a natural fresh diet not the full blown BARF but fairly close - to shock her system and provide us with an avenue to control the yeast free diet. She changed within 2 weeks! Not 100% but enough to know we were on the right track. It would take at least a year for her immune system to build and level off. We then found a natural dog food that was yeast Free - the ONLY one we can find anywhere in North-America called Wellness - by Mother Hubbard. Taz now only suffers from the mold in the Fall - and this fall being so mild - affected her more than normal. We do watch her because all dogs manufacture their own yeast and it is hard to avoid the allergies within.

We also changed her Vaccination regime and have maintained regular blood tests - to provide a heads up on any major health issues. It has been 2 years now - and we have had to take her to the Vet only for her "shots" and her annual physical.

Haily was also brought up differently and her puppy vaccinations were spread out over a year rather than ganged in a 3 month span. We also separate the shots and do not use the 5 in 1 deals. Yes it costs more - only because the visit is $45 every time - but in the long run we believe we have a stronger dog with less Vet visits. Only time will tell.

Our Vet now is very interested in the nutrition and has taken on the new vaccine protocols - it is just a shame that some of the protocols take so long to get out to the general public - when the results have been known for 2-3 years before they are put in place.

Sorry this has been a long post.

Just remember Human 1 can eat healthy and exercise never drink or smoke and then die at the age of 50 Human 2 can eat like $%^%&&, smoke like a chimney, and watch every episode of you know what and live to the ripe old age of 104..... Dogs/Pets are the same.

e live in a Toxic world that are present in our homes, in their play toys, in their food (and ours) in their medications but not in the love we give them.

And that is why we bought our Girls an Airstream Trailer! So they could live their lives to the fullest - and travel the world - well okay North-America

[Hippo]

It makes my heart fell good that you did your home work on your dogs health. Very few humans ever do as much as you have. Thank you for the great post.
Hippo

[kposey]

Don't forget that just like in humans, genetics will play a role as well.

[Hippo]

Did you see the movie Supersize It. It is about a man who ate every meal at McDonalds for 60 days. It showed how the food started to damage his system. Yes genetics does help both animals and humans.

[Tarheel]

Well I guess that my habit of picking up fresh road kill for the pooches isn't such a bad thing after all. It does get kinda gamey in the back of the truck but thats a small price to pay for natural food for fido.

[Hippo]

Originally Posted by Tarheel

Well I guess that my habit of picking up fresh road kill for the pooches isn't such a bad thing after all. It does get kinda gamey in the back of the truck but thats a small price to pay for natural food for fido.

Sounds like you are on the right track, keep up the good work.

[05ModPod]

Originally Posted by Hippo

Sounds like you are on the right track, keep up the good work.

Taz & Haily suplement their diets with live Chipmunks - about 2-3 a summer getting a little faster every year. And at certain times of the year they supplement with "scat" deer, bear, fox and god only knows what when they go on their runs in the forest.

Last year Haily picked up some intestine from ??? and by the time I said drop it - it was gone - within 4 days she had a flaming bladder infection which soon spread to Taz.....but of course this infection and crystals in the urine where blamed on the food I was feeding - Wellness (just because it was new in our area and the vet did not know about it!) So I was wondering why they don't still have the bladder infections as they are still on the same food.

Had a freind that worked in the road kill department - now there is a job for you@!!!! yuck.

[Hippo]

Wellness is a food made all natural.
Most grocery store foods are preserved with butylated Hydroxyanisole (BHA) OR BUTYLATED HYDROXYTOLUENE (BHT) or propyl gallate. BHA enhanced stomach and urinary bladder carcinogenesis and causes squamous-cell carcinomas in stomachs. BHT promotes urinary bladder carcinogenesis and could be a promoter of thyroid cancer. Pocessed human foods use these also.
WBCCI #7854

[05ModPod]

Originally Posted by Hippo

Wellness is a food made all natural....
BHT promotes urinary bladder carcinogenesis and could be a promoter of thyroid cancer. Pocessed human foods use these also.
WBCCI #7854

So my point exactly - why "some" vets seem to lump all foods except their own - "Hills or Science Diet" which are not that much better than the low end foods and yet are 1/3 more expensive than the "natural made foods like Wellness.

Do they not think that some pet owners are capable of thinking and doing some research - just because we don't have a degree! in Veterinary practice....

[Hippo]

I have a very good friend who is getting out of Vet school. Colgate-Palmolive makes Hill's Science Diet. They provide everything to the school for students. When you start out as a Vet they give you $ 1000.00 of free food. Why wouldn't you buy from them. Also they teach only medical subjects and anything about food is 1/2 a day. My friend is doing nutrition study on his own. Hill's likes to use chicken by-products. A dog should not eat poultry by-products which is a mixture of feathered animals, including pigeons. Feather meal is a great filler with no nutritional value in it. The human food company is making millions from the public selling them garbage for the animals to eat. I tell people go to the interent and check it out.
WBCCI #7854

[Stefrobrts]

Except for a few people who have had genuine food related problems, most people's pets are probably doing pretty well on stuff like science diet. One of my dogs eats science diet, and one eats Nutro.

BHA/BHT is an antioxidant used for food preservation, including human food. I searched through the kitchen and could only find it on one label (not a lot of prepared food in our house). It is used to preserve fats in foods that are kept at room tempurature. It is commonly found in medicines, vitamins, butter, baked goods, and anything else with fat in it that isn't going to be stored in the fridge. The jury is still out on exactly what it's role is in causing cancer or tumors, or if it is only a problem in people with a sensitivity to it. You are correct, it is in Chester's SD dog food, though there are no poultry by-products. His food is corn/rice based.

Personally, the BHA/BHT issue is less important to me than the benefits Chester receives from the SD prescription diet he is on, because his medical condition is very serious. I volunteer with some rescue groups, and get a lot of un-asked-for advice from people who feel they know better than me. Some have told me that he would not have his medical problems if he ate some magical 'natural' diet, that all his problems, genetic or otherwise, would be cured and he would be a perfect, healthy animal. I just can't buy that, and I think it's irresponsible for people to make those kind of recommendations without even knowing him. Ultimately the responsibility for keeping him healthy rests on my shoulders, and I take it very seriously.

It's fun to joke about feeding them roadkill, but Chester gets very sick if he so much as gobbles up a field mouse! And I get to deal with the reaction to it, and he is quite miserable until it passes. Same thing if we don't keep him out of the orchard and he gobbles up windfall fruit off the trees. And then there was the time he found a rotten bunny body in the back field. Lets just say I don't think Chester would be better off if he were left to choose his own diet! In fact, when he came to the pound as a stray he had been choosing his own diet for who knows how long while he was loose, and it took nearly a year to stabilize him again, to clear up the crystals that had formed in his bladder which threatened to plug up his urinary tract, to control the allergic ear infections, and to soothe his allergic skin reaction. He was a mess, the poor guy! And for that reason I will not mess with a diet that is working for him.

Say what you will about science diet, but Chester is a happy healthy guy today thanks to their food and his daily medicine, and some great care from our vet, and a lot of home care from us!

[05ModPod]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Except for a few people who have had genuine food related problems, most people's pets are probably doing pretty well on stuff like science diet. One of my dogs eats science diet, and one eats Nutro........
Say what you will about science diet, but Chester is a happy healthy guy today thanks to their food and his daily medicine, and some great care from our vet, and a lot of home care from us!

A point not to forget - that every dog is different and different foods will be tolerated by different pets. Just as certain foods our quirky systems can't take - like you better not park close to our trailer if I have had mushrooms or onion soup - phewwww.

You are right Stephanie - No one should poke fun at any foods out there unless we are experts - but then what do the "experts" go by? Food trials - without going into detail - some should look up how they are done - very interesting reading. Take the test dogs for an instant. Say they were tested for a year - okay fine - but where are the test results of those dogs kept on the foods for their lives - and what are the clinical results of the various ailments they contracted over those years and what was their life span??? These are the results you never see! Some say we are seeing those results by the number of vet visits our pets are having to make. (this is another big topic in itself)

Haily's bladder infection quickly reached a level that involved crystals that had to be treated immediately (probably in the same case as your Chester) I too had to make a decision to change her diet to clear this infection up - and basically had to feed her what I called "Log Chinking" it was the texture of rubber - an extremely low protien high moisture diet - that breaks down the crystals quickly. She dropped about 5 pounds but was kept on the diet until her urine samples were clear. The element to this diet was simple - water that flushes the system - but mixed with just enough nutriants as not to starve the dog on a short regime.

After my personal research I was more concerned about the amount of filler type ingredients that go into the foods than the BHA/BHT - and the lack of standard controls on the foods - which have improved considerably over the past 18 years. When I read about the rendering factories and their issues, it blew me away I could not bring myself to think that they affected the foods I was buying over the years. (Technical Growth, Iams, & Nutro) Don't kid yourselves only a few years back all the main feed mills purchased from a pool of rendering houses - but people spoke up and now the industry is cleaning itself up more regulations are in place and hopefully become even better as the consumer becomes more aware.

"natural" is a funny word and perhaps it is used loosely - and to those who feed "barf" diets many think the "kibble" feeders are "crazy" and then the grocery bought kibble feeders think people like myself who feed the higher % quality ingredient type kibble are paying way too much for the same kibble. It is all in the ingredients and how to properly read the ingredient list. No one should comment on what kibble is better than another unless they have actually compared the ingredient lists thoroughly and understand what each ingredient represents and take it one step further understand how each of those ingredients help or affect your dogs health.

Those who say don't feed your dog "human" food always brings me a little chuckle - a carrot, pea or various meats and grains of sorts just to name a few ingredients - I think last I checked are what we humans eat occaisionally - pick'em, squeeze'em, mix'em, roll'em and cut'em into little bits and bake'em hey folks you just made some human kibble.

[Stefrobrts]

I've also heard that dogs shouldn't eat carrots, but those are a favorite treat at our house. Alki the Eskimo's breeder suggested frozen carrots for her when she was teething, and she has loved them ever since. Nothing gets her as excited as hearing the veggie drawer open in the fridge!

Personally, sometimes I wish they made human kibble - it would be a lot easier than cooking everyday!

[Davydd]

We worry about what dogs eat when we humans have McDonalds everywhere?