What's your preference? Over capacity TV or under capacity?

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Albireo

I couldn't agree more.

Hi

Sit down with the shop manual on a series of trucks (F-150/250/350 or any of the others) and you may be a bit surprised by the brakes. They just *might* be using the exact same parts on a wide range of vehicles .... (= the modern 150/250/350's are more alike than they are different ...)

Bob

[Albireo]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Sit down with the shop manual on a series of trucks (F-150/250/350 or any of the others) and you may be a bit surprised by the brakes. They just *might* be using the exact same parts on a wide range of vehicles .... (= the modern 150/250/350's are more alike than they are different ...)

Bob

I couldn't agree less.

My 250 is basically a detuned 350 with one leaf spring removed with the class 4 hitch. So in that case what you say is true.

The 150 however is very different vehicle. Having owned and driven both I can say first hand the differences are huge especially going from the gasser to a diesel.

I am no expert like Tireman; however, having owned and sold a successful trucking company to a very large U.S. company I have spent my time around people who drive and love trucks. As well, we would hire people from safety groups to do safety meetings so I have been surrounded by truck experts and enthusiats for a large majority of my life. Moreover, throughout the years we have had truck and safety experts on staff.

When I bought my 250 I spent the afternoon at a colleague's place going over the differences between the 150 and the 250. If and when you do this, please come back and tell us that these are the same trucks if that is what you find out.

[ttsr4us]

I tow a 2016 FC 30 foot trailer with a GMC Sierra 3500 Duramax Diesel Crew Cab.



Some might say this is OTT. I will say I frequently camp with another couple and I have an ARE cap and 1 ton slide out tray on the bed.


So I consider better safe than sorry. I've been all over the country (USA and Canada) with this rig and never felt out of control.



Been RVing since 2001 in previous trailers/tow trucks and gas and diesel motorhomes and never had a rig associated issue. (recently had a tire blow through hitting road rubbish but that is another issue)



Now, is it right to regularly tow a Bambie with my truck? almost certainly not. So you can over specify.

[pteck]

I don't care for a TV that's too much over or too much under. Call me Goldilocks, but I'll have a tow vehicle that's just right. More importantly, right for my own use. As not everyone fits my personal definition of just right.

Too much under, and I'll potentially suffer the consequences - either lack of performance, safety, durability, what have you.

Too much over, and again, I may suffer different consequences - too big to do day to day chores, stiff ride, work truck accommodations.

Just right for me means a vehicle that can do pentuple duty, and do all well. I'll admit, it does cost more than just about any other choice, but for me, it's my just right vehicle - Lexus Land Cruiser (aka LX570)

1) Tow my 27FB with absolute confidence, power, and a buttery ride
2) Effortless commute in the city and suburbs when not towing
3) Luxury vehicle out on the town for date night, with audiophile grade Mark Levinson setting the mood
4) Acting minivan when family comes with seating for 8
5) Play in the dirt over serious technical trails with Jeeps to explore the backcountry

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Albireo

I couldn't agree less.

My 250 is basically a detuned 350 with one leaf spring removed with the class 4 hitch. So in that case what you say is true.

The 150 however is very different vehicle. Having owned and driven both I can say first hand the differences are huge especially going from the gasser to a diesel.

I am no expert like Tireman; however, having owned and sold a successful trucking company to a very large U.S. company I have spent my time around people who drive and love trucks. As well, we would hire people from safety groups to do safety meetings so I have been surrounded by truck experts and enthusiats for a large majority of my life. Moreover, throughout the years we have had truck and safety experts on staff.

When I bought my 250 I spent the afternoon at a colleague's place going over the differences between the 150 and the 250. If and when you do this, please come back and tell us that these are the same trucks if that is what you find out.

Hi

Well, what they use on the 250,350,450 is pretty much the same as far as brakes. The F150 brakes are darn near the same (13 vs 14" rotors). The idea that a bigger truck "stops better" simply isn't true. Drink whatever kool aide you wish, but they do indeed use the same parts over a wide range of vehicles.

Bob

[Cap-N-Red]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

No such thing as too much money or too much horsepower....fact

I Agree 100%

[pteck]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Well, what they use on the 250,350,450 is pretty much the same as far as brakes. The F150 brakes are darn near the same (13 vs 14" rotors). The idea that a bigger truck "stops better" simply isn't true. Drink whatever kool aide you wish, but they do indeed use the same parts over a wide range of vehicles.

Bob

Last time I looked, 13 was at a different position than 14 on a ruler. It's a bigger difference than the 1" would imply. For a brake rotor, that's dimensionally at least a 15% bigger rotor. And it's wholly possible it's a thicker rotor which would again make it quite a bit larger again.

That said, an F250/350 will never stop shorter on account of multiple things, including weight and cruder suspension.

Where the bigger brakes do help is that it has the ability to sink more kinetic energy, i.e. convert kinect energy to heat energy. Which means it can slow down more mass before fading.

[sbowman]

Originally Posted by pteck

I don't care for a TV that's too much over or too much under. Call me Goldilocks, but I'll have a tow vehicle that's just right. More importantly, right for my own use. As not everyone fits my personal definition of just right.

Too much under, and I'll potentially suffer the consequences - either lack of performance, safety, durability, what have you.

Too much over, and again, I may suffer different consequences - too big to do day to day chores, stiff ride, work truck accommodations.

Just right for me means a vehicle that can do pentuple duty, and do all well. I'll admit, it does cost more than just about any other choice, but for me, it's my just right vehicle - Lexus Land Cruiser (aka LX570)

1) Tow my 27FB with absolute confidence, power, and a buttery ride
2) Effortless commute in the city and suburbs when not towing
3) Luxury vehicle out on the town for date night, with audiophile grade Mark Levinson setting the mood
4) Acting minivan when family comes with seating for 8
5) Play in the dirt over serious technical trails with Jeeps to explore the backcountry

Pteck how the heck are you? Well I hope.


Then there are others that buy a TV to tow with, have the "buttery" ride vehicle for date night, have real off road vehicle(s) for serious off road use and yes can be driven on public roads. LR,s come to mind. All this fits our life and well at that.



Only in America.................


Be well, as always best regards and safe travels

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by pteck

Last time I looked, 13 was at a different position than 14 on a ruler. It's a bigger difference than the 1" would imply. For a brake rotor, that's dimensionally at least a 15% bigger rotor. And it's wholly possible it's a thicker rotor which would again make it quite a bit larger again.

That said, an F250/350 will never stop shorter on account of multiple things, including weight and cruder suspension.

Where the bigger brakes do help is that it has the ability to sink more kinetic energy, i.e. convert kinect energy to heat energy. Which means it can slow down more mass before fading.

I see lots of accidents where a vehicle rear ends another. The vast majority of them involve cars, almost never pickups. Maybe the ability to stop on a dime ain’t all it’s cracked up to be?

[pteck]

Originally Posted by sbowman

Pteck how the heck are you? Well I hope.


Then there are others that buy a TV to tow with, have the "buttery" ride vehicle for date night, have real off road vehicle(s) for serious off road use and yes can be driven on public roads. LR,s come to mind. All this fits our life and well at that.



Only in America.................


Be well, as always best regards and safe travels

But to have them all on a road-trip. Guess there's a solution to that too in the form of having it all on a car hauler towed by an F550.

[AlinCal]

The brake thing for me is not being able to make that one time emergency stop in traffic because I was texting, but more the multiple mile 6-9% grade that has a hairpin curve several miles into the decent. That's when things get interesting.

Couple that come to mind in my area of travel,
Glacier Lodge Rd. in Big Pine canyon. hard S turn during a steep decent.
Rock Creek Rd. above Toms place needs to be traveled with caution
Both side of Hwy 190 into and out of Panamint Valley is not for the faint of heart.
Whitney Portal Rd. About all you see up there are tent trailers. Last trip with TV only we followed a guy down who had smoked his brakes on his Accord with just 2 people on board.
Never towed down it but Hwy 120 Tioga Pass road makes the list too.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

I see lots of accidents where a vehicle rear ends another. The vast majority of them involve cars, almost never pickups. Maybe the ability to stop on a dime ain’t all it’s cracked up to be?

One report I read on rear end collisions had pickups over represented for front end damage (pickups hit the car in front) but under represented in rear end damage (it was suggested in the report that pickups are higher, and thus more visible when stopped ahead).

The above fits the data that shows that pickups don't stop as quickly, so they would be more likely to hit something in front, and less likely to be hit from behind.

I would always opt for the vehicle with more performance, not the one with less, when considering things like braking ability. I think braking ability is all it's cracked up to be.

[pteck]

^ Not surprising at all. Large trucks, SUVs, 4x4s, all instill a sense of invincibility leading to some measure of overconfidence. Even if hypothetically handling wise, they performed on par with passenger based vehicles, the insusceptible feeling would lend to yet more risky behavior.

Yes, we're talking about towing, and in that, depending on the actual setup and weights involved, will dictate the overall performance. My vote wouldn't be on the biggest and most importantly, heaviest tow vehicle out there. Nor my own vehicle for that matter.

For me, my setup strikes the right balance of performance that I'm more than comfortable with, in the way I drive it. What I'm saying is that the driver is probably the most important part, in that they should recognize the overall performance envelop of the rig, and drive in a way that is compatible to said rig. Overconfidence, can expose one to higher risks than necessary.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by pteck

^ Not surprising at all. Large trucks, SUVs, 4x4s, all instill a sense of invincibility leading to some measure of overconfidence. Even if hypothetically handling wise, they performed on par with passenger based vehicles, the insusceptible feeling would lend to yet more risky behavior.

….. Overconfidence, can expose one to higher risks than necessary.

Agree, but I would add to the list. High manufacturer's tow ratings can also instill a sense of invincibility, leading to some measure of overconfidence. And overconfidence can expose one to higher risks than necessary.

One of the problems is that larger and heavier vehicles often provide less feedback to the driver (due to TV weight, steering feel or lack of it, and suspension design) and so problems in set up can be masked. We regularly see comments like "I can't even feel it back there..."

That lack of feedback to the driver can lead to behaviour that results in a crash, because everything is great until the moment that it isn't.

[Albireo]

Have you ever noticed people going quicker than you are maniacs and slower than you idiots - George Carlin (who I am not a big fan of).


From my understanding larger vehicles can give you overconfidence. I still would like to be driving one. That's just me. I like big trucks and an easy towing.

I like what pteck has to say. The driver is very important. A good driver could take a truck down a steep incline and not overheat the brakes as they know to go slow and not gain speed in this situation. A poor driver... well anything goes.

I was just listening to an audio book today about how, especially men, overrate themselves in basically all aspects of themselves. Smart, good looking, a great lover and the list goes on. I am sure driving as well.

Of course I am great at it......

[Albireo]

Originally Posted by jcl

One of the problems is that larger and heavier vehicles often provide less feedback to the driver (due to TV weight, steering feel or lack of it, and suspension design) and so problems in set up can be masked. We regularly see comments like "I can't even feel it back there..."

My experience driving a new F250 is you get a lot of feedback through the steering wheel. The stiff suspension as compared to lets say the F150 allows the road surface to come through the wheel. I enjoy the changing road surfaces. As someone who loves to drive I like the direct feedback from the wheel of my truck. "I can't even feel it back there" is just an expression. Of course you can feel it back there. The F250 is designed for towing and 7500lbs is a fair bit of weight. I can't imagine towing 7500lbs and not having the feedback you need to make the appropriate driving decisions. Overconfidence is something else entirely.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jcl

One report I read on rear end collisions had pickups over represented for front end damage (pickups hit the car in front) but under represented in rear end damage (it was suggested in the report that pickups are higher, and thus more visible when stopped ahead).

The above fits the data that shows that pickups don't stop as quickly, so they would be more likely to hit something in front, and less likely to be hit from behind.

I would always opt for the vehicle with more performance, not the one with less, when considering things like braking ability. I think braking ability is all it's cracked up to be.

Thankfully this data relates more to driver behavior than anything else. Explains why people are scared of their own shadow these days, and I’m not.

[overlander63]

I'm not sure why anyone would willfully seek out a tow vehicle that is over its capacity when searching for one.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by overlander63

I'm not sure why anyone would willfully seek out a tow vehicle that is over its capacity when searching for one.

Lots of people have limited garage space and don’t think they can fit a larger vehicle. Some are attached to a certain brand (like Subaru) that doesn’t come in large sizes. Most frequently they already own the vehicle and don’t want to sell and buy another, or are underwater on the one they own. Lots of reasons.

[Vantair]

Some may reason such as running tires until they blow is sensible.

It will be YOU that is in the predicament that YOU will wish you were not in if pushing the limits of capacity.

Don’t push it as it will push back one day.