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Old 07-09-2017, 10:57 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by switz View Post
We are supposedly on vacation when the Airstream is attached. Thus logic suggests getting off the road when the weather goes into a snow & ice mode. Arrive later but alive and undented.

The rest of the time, I have a Hensley Arrow on the 23D and a Pro Pride on the 31 Classic. They work for me.

Tuson has the ABS brake system to control individual disc brakes which would help with sway as well. But that system still has to be augmented by a weight distribution hitch in most RV applications with non-professional drivers in other than the one ton dually trucks the trailer delivery chaps use.
The biggest reason for a WD hitch is to compensate for undersized vehicles.
That is what gave rise to the successful marketing of both the Hensley and the Pro Pride. The most often heard sales pitch is " you don't need a Pickup, you can pull it with a Toureg, or less all you need is proper weight distribution" hitch, a Propride or a Hensley prefarably. Never mind that above all and before you get to weight distribution you need a vehicle with the proper payload capacity. Most Airstreams above 25' burn up 1,000 lbs of it before you even load your favorite lawn chair.
I am still waiting for answer to that question I posted in regards to this very issue on an article five years ago in Airstream Life. I was new to airstreaming and needed advise regarding a TV. I had way too much sense to by a Toureg and went with a F-150 which last year got replaced with a F-250.
And how does all that actually work out with a hitch weighing over 200 lbs with a marginal payload to begin with.
And here comes the modern electronic Sway Control with a lot of promise and right on cue it gets trashed by the Pro Pride and Hensley crowd. Unbelievable !
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Old 07-09-2017, 11:43 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
The biggest reason for a WD hitch is to compensate for undersized vehicles.

That is what gave rise to the successful marketing of both the Hensley and the Pro Pride. The most often heard sales pitch is " you don't need a Pickup, you can pull it with a Toureg, or less all you need is proper weight distribution" hitch, a Propride or a Hensley prefarably. Never mind that above all and before you get to weight distribution you need a vehicle with the proper payload capacity. Most Airstreams above 25' burn up 1,000 lbs of it before you even load your favorite lawn chair.

I am still waiting for answer to that question I posted in regards to this very issue on an article five years ago in Airstream Life. I was new to airstreaming and needed advise regarding a TV. I had way too much sense to by a Toureg and went with a F-150 which last year got replaced with a F-250.

And how does all that actually work out with a hitch weighing over 200 lbs with a marginal payload to begin with.

And here comes the modern electronic Sway Control with a lot of promise and right on cue it gets trashed by the Pro Pride and Hensley crowd. Unbelievable !


How do you come to these conclusions? For example - the sole reason for having a WD hitch is to distribute weight, restoring what gets lifted off the front axle when the weight of the trailer is dropped "on the ball".

Way back when - EVERY vehicle was "undersized" - even pickup trucks, and especially the family sedan/station wagon. With headlights aiming up to the moon - the WD hitch did its job leveling things out.

Today - it's possible 3/4 or 1T truck may not need WD as the impact on the front end is minimal. Such is not the case with my 3/4T diesel behemoth. I lose 4-500# off the steer axle when the trailer is connected and I can return that with my WD hitch. And with 2504# of payload on my truck, I'm not worried about payload impact w/the PP. And to be honest, I think the Airstream Life question you raise is likely more connected to Andy Thompson and Can-Am than toward a VPP hitch. For the record - here's an area I actually agree on with you. I know people swear by him and his business has several hundreds of apparently successful examples of passenger cars towing 30' trailers. I don't understand it and wouldn't go that way personally without warranties and acceptance of liability in the part of the modifier - meaning - I won't be a customer

At any rate - none of that gave rise to Hensley or ProPride at all. They're just relatively "new mousetraps" in an old market. Their pitch is the mechanically different way they deal with sway (nothing miraculous about their weight distribution capability). And it is mechanically different than other hitch sway devices.

WD and sway are two different things (though improper WD can improve your odds of sway). I think electronic sway control options are improving all the time and look very promising. I also like the mechanical sway control option as well (ever had a computer module die on your vehicle?). Having both would be a very solid strategy.

I think that's all anyone is saying - no trashing - just a belt/suspenders kind of option.
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:02 PM   #213
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By itself, I can see this putting a pretty big hit on gas mileage on a windy day. The other thing, for me, is it is electronic. I worked with computers for my entire career, it seemed like they always had problems at the worst possible time. Memory card fried just as we were doing year end closing, etc. And you may not know it failed when you need it.

With that said, I wonder how often it would actually activate if paired with a VPP hitch.
Guess what, Sailor...a great many of us have worked with computers our whole lives...starting in elementary school! Mechanical adding machines and slide rules went out a few generations ago. If computers were anywhere nearly as unreliable as you seem to think they still are, our contemporary world would be in a total mess. They simply don't "...always have problems at the worst possible time." We rely on computers to take on our most sensitive of all calculations where there is not room for the tiniest error. If you remain a luddite technophobe, you can mount two little lights in your TV (just like shown in the YouTube vid) that will show you when the electronic sway control module is sending a signal to activate the trailer brakes.

The electronic sway controller is not going to slow you down or mess with your mpg's, BTW. Unless your TV is being driven thru extreme maneuvers like shown in the video, causing huge and lengthy trailer oscillations, the ESC is only going to activate for fractions of a second. You wouldn't even notice when it happens (without the little lights, of course).
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:22 PM   #214
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Weight distribution and anti sway equipment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAtraveler View Post
If you remain a luddite technophobe, you can mount two little lights in your TV (just like shown in the YouTube vid)

Given that any car built in the last 20 years relies extensively on multiple computer systems and a sophisticated communication bus it would seem that this right here (attached photo) is the only remaining option for a modern day technophobe looking to tow an airstream you'll be pretty fit though!

Hope you never have to fly anywhere either with all those dang computers they put in airplanes these days

... and it would seem that a trans-Atlantic ocean crossing is far safer without having to rely on weather radar and gps navigation computers that will simply malfunction. Bah - I say a wooden raft is the safest route then there's no mystery if you are really lost or not

That's some funny stuff. Those dang computer thingies .....
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Old 07-09-2017, 08:41 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by USAtraveler View Post
Guess what, Sailor...a great many of us have worked with computers our whole lives...starting in elementary school! Mechanical adding machines and slide rules went out a few generations ago. If computers were anywhere nearly as unreliable as you seem to think they still are, our contemporary world would be in a total mess. They simply don't "...always have problems at the worst possible time." We rely on computers to take on our most sensitive of all calculations where there is not room for the tiniest error. If you remain a luddite technophobe, you can mount two little lights in your TV (just like shown in the YouTube vid) that will show you when the electronic sway control module is sending a signal to activate the trailer brakes.

The electronic sway controller is not going to slow you down or mess with your mpg's, BTW. Unless your TV is being driven thru extreme maneuvers like shown in the video, causing huge and lengthy trailer oscillations, the ESC is only going to activate for fractions of a second. You wouldn't even notice when it happens (without the little lights, of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfraat View Post
Given that any car built in the last 20 years relies extensively on multiple computer systems and a sophisticated communication bus it would seem that this right here (attached photo) is the only remaining option for a modern day technophobe looking to tow an airstream you'll be pretty fit though!

Hope you never have to fly anywhere either with all those dang computers they put in airplanes these days

... and it would seem that a trans-Atlantic ocean crossing is far safer without having to rely on weather radar and gps navigation computers that will simply malfunction. Bah - I say a wooden raft is the safest route then there's no mystery if you are really lost or not

That's some funny stuff. Those dang computer thingies .....

Sorry dudes, since you want to get into it.
1. I started on slide rules and adding machines.
2. I actually knew how to wire (program) an IBM 401 Accounting machine.
3. I am proficient in about a dozen programing languages from IBM assembler thru Python.
4. I ended up designing systems for computers running against peda-byte scale data bases. Yes, the ones driving E-Bay, Amazon, Apple, ATT,...

So I am no technophobe luddite.

I spent way too many nights and weekends recovering from electronic system failures. I have first hand experience on how, when, and why they fail. As noted, too many of them were at REALLY bad times.

Everything has an expected mean time before failure. I wonder what the number is for the sway controller. 50% of units will survive a lot longer than that, but 50% will fail sooner. The big computers I worked on had hard drives with MTBF of 10,000+ hours, but inevitably a couple of them failed during computer installation and it wasn't unusual to replace 2 or 3 a month there after. The math is easy, 1 drive will fail after about 10,000 hours, if you have 2, expect 1 of them to fail after about 5,000, 4? One ever 2,500, If you have 600 drives??? We also employed solid state drives. The SSDs were covered under warranty for 5 years. After that, they were considered worn out and needed to be replaced. So how many sway devices are on the road? Divide the MTBF by that number - are you above or below the mean?
Have you noticed, most modern jets have 2 engines? It is less likely to have 1 of 2 fail than 1 of 4, also it is easier to control a plane if 1 of 2 engines fails. The planes are equipped with redundant systems for everything that is deemed critical. And those computers handling "our most sensitive of all calculations where there is not room for the tiniest error" have redundancy setups to verify that everything is correct - been there, done that. Where is the redundancy for the sway device? If the computers in your TV fail, what is the worst that happens? The engine dies, you loose power steering and brakes. BUT you will be able to let the rig coast to a stop and muscle the steering and get off the road. Where are you if your stand-alone electronic sway device fails as it is correcting sway?

Also, if you bothered to note, I specified that it would hit mpg on really windy days. If you pull a trailer that does not have an anti-sway hitch on it, the trailer IS going to be oscillating pretty steadily in the wind. If the the electronic sway device straightens the trailer by activating the brakes for every oscillation and the driver reacts by adding more gas, do you really think that won't affect mileage?

If you like being a bleeding edge person, go for it. It all depends on your individual risk/reward perspective. Personally, I will wait to see some extensive real world experience and see how long they actually hold up. How many incidents occur that may not be the electronic unit failing but rather something with the wiring, or the trailer brakes. What else could have a negative impact that wasn't considered? For example, will the windy day scenario result in the trailer brakes being over used - similar to people riding and losing their brakes when going down long grades? How effective is the sway device with hot brakes, how do you know if you have an issue?

Someone, somewhere noted that these things, with a 3P hitch was "belt and suspenders" (that's old people talk for redundancy). That's fine, adding a redundant system. My question is: how do you know the redundant system is working? Also, my modern truck with all of its computers has trailer anti-sway (which is programed to notify me if it's broken). So do I really need a third (unproven) system?
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Old 07-10-2017, 02:39 AM   #216
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Your wealth of experience is laudable, Sailor. But digital technology has progressed way beyond stacked disc drives. Those large scale mainframe computer systems you worked on bear little resemblance to modern micro digital systems. I have no idea what the "MTBF" rate is for the latest ESC devices that rely on micro digital technology. But if is anything like the MTBF as you saw with mainframes, Apple and Microsoft would have gone bankrupt decades ago. Micro miniaturization has led to huge strides in reliability such that you don't have to worry whether your GPS will quit while you out in the Desolation Wilderness, that your Iphone will just quit working for no reason at all, or your airbags won't deploy when you need them.

The odds of hitting that MTBF low number are so remote its like the chance of winning the lottery. Nothing, tho, is 100% golden AFAIK. So if you can't stop yourself from worrying about redundancy et al, get yourself a couple of those little light bulbs on your dash (right next to your plastic St. Christopher) and keep an eye on them to feel assured the ESC is still on the job.

Let's assume tho, just for the sake of discussion, that the ESC does crap out. What does that mean, and what is the consequence? It means simply that the trailer brakes will not be individually activated in a sway inducing event. It means that your TV's redundant sway control module will instantly take over and send a brake actuator signal. This signal goes to both trailer brakes simultaneously, but that's still a vast improvement over old school sway control mechanisms that don't interact with the trailer brakes at all.

One final point. If the wind is so damn strong its pushing your rig...TV and trailer together...from side to side, what the hell are you doing out there on the highway trying to go 60 mph anyway? Slow down and pull off the road as soon as you can. The life you save could be mine.
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:14 AM   #217
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Old 07-10-2017, 07:23 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
The biggest reason for a WD hitch is to compensate for undersized vehicles.
That is what gave rise to the successful marketing of both the Hensley and the Pro Pride. The most often heard sales pitch is " you don't need a Pickup, you can pull it with a Toureg, or less all you need is proper weight distribution" hitch, a Propride or a Hensley prefarably. Never mind that above all and before you get to weight distribution you need a vehicle with the proper payload capacity. Most Airstreams above 25' burn up 1,000 lbs of it before you even load your favorite lawn chair.
I am still waiting for answer to that question I posted in regards to this very issue on an article five years ago in Airstream Life. I was new to airstreaming and needed advise regarding a TV. I had way too much sense to by a Toureg and went with a F-150 which last year got replaced with a F-250.
And how does all that actually work out with a hitch weighing over 200 lbs with a marginal payload to begin with.
And here comes the modern electronic Sway Control with a lot of promise and right on cue it gets trashed by the Pro Pride and Hensley crowd. Unbelievable !
Did you post up your Scale tickets with the F150?
Some pics of the rig?

That practice pre-dates your efforts.

One can question how serious you are.
Sniping from the sidelines.

Declining the experience and expertise of others?

An F150 doesnt lack for power or brakes.
Wheres your power to weight analysis?

You wanted less than best. You achieved it.

Etc
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Old 07-10-2017, 08:55 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
How do you come to these conclusions? For example - the sole reason for having a WD hitch is to distribute weight, restoring what gets lifted off the front axle when the weight of the trailer is dropped "on the ball".

Way back when - EVERY vehicle was "undersized" - even pickup trucks, and especially the family sedan/station wagon. With headlights aiming up to the moon - the WD hitch did its job leveling things out.

Today - it's possible 3/4 or 1T truck may not need WD as the impact on the front end is minimal. Such is not the case with my 3/4T diesel behemoth. I lose 4-500# off the steer axle when the trailer is connected and I can return that with my WD hitch. And with 2504# of payload on my truck, I'm not worried about payload impact w/the PP. And to be honest, I think the Airstream Life question you raise is likely more connected to Andy Thompson and Can-Am than toward a VPP hitch. For the record - here's an area I actually agree on with you. I know people swear by him and his business has several hundreds of apparently successful examples of passenger cars towing 30' trailers. I don't understand it and wouldn't go that way personally without warranties and acceptance of liability in the part of the modifier - meaning - I won't be a customer

At any rate - none of that gave rise to Hensley or ProPride at all. They're just relatively "new mousetraps" in an old market. Their pitch is the mechanically different way they deal with sway (nothing miraculous about their weight distribution capability). And it is mechanically different than other hitch sway devices.

WD and sway are two different things (though improper WD can improve your odds of sway). I think electronic sway control options are improving all the time and look very promising. I also like the mechanical sway control option as well (ever had a computer module die on your vehicle?). Having both would be a very solid strategy.

I think that's all anyone is saying - no trashing - just a belt/suspenders kind of option.
Here is what I have learned through hands on experience.
I was towing a 30' International with a F-150 Ecoboost with the heavy duty tow package. The truck performed well for the most part but I had to get very aggressive with the weight distribution because: A. With 1,550 payload I was constantly over loaded by 200 lbs B: I always had the feeling of the tail wagging the dog. I also had to abort a couple of steep passes because it simply didn't have enough power. All that began to take the fun out of trailering.
Last December I traded it for an F-250 Diesel. I set up the WD hitch exactly the same way I needed to use it on the F-150. One thing became obvious right of way was that the front fender opening didn't move at all with the WD engaged. The first shake down trip the rear axle was all over and had a scary ride. Realizing that all the WD did was take too much weight off the rear axle I readjusted it where I eliminated most of the lift still maintaining some tension on the bars. With just about all of the weight on the rear axle the truck settled down and the entire rig rode solid as a rock. BTW I am using a BO hitch. Both truck and trailer were riding dead level with the revised setting.
With the heavy diesel sitting up front I don't need any additional weight for steering stability. And with 2,300 lbs payload I have more capacity than I need.
The move up to the F-250 was also facilitated by trading the 30' International to a 30' Classic.
The lesson I learned in all this was that having a large enough TV is more crucial to safe towing than the hitch one chooses.
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:32 AM   #220
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Weight distribution and anti sway equipment?

Frank - I agreed with your perspective.

After upgrading to a 30' International (from a 25' with about 20-25k towing miles under my belt) and after towing they 30' for about 3k miles with my current 1/2 ton large SUV, including many highway miles and several trips through the mountains here in Colorado (8% grades up and down at altitude, etc..), I've decided to move up to a 2500 diesel.

I plan to report back on my perspective regarding pros and cons of each vehicle, because each setup does have pros and cons.

Appreciate your insight on hitch setup moving from a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton. Makes logical sense.
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:04 AM   #221
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Si also agree. Years ago when I picked up my trailer with WD on my one ton, the handling was terrible. Using the WD on an already rear light truck only made the rear end lighter. If I used the WD hitch I set it up with almost no WD just so I could have the sntisway feature. I eventually went to a ball hitch no WD, and used two antisway bars.
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Old 07-10-2017, 12:00 PM   #222
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Hi

Interesting factiod:

On a reasonably high end vehicle, you have more than a hundred "computers" in the driver seat. No, that's not a typo. It just happens to be empty space that you can shove stuff into. It also happens to be a less hostile environment than under the hood.

Like apparently 98% of the rest of the group on this thread, I've spent a few years going from discrete transistor logic based computers to modern MCU's. I've also converted a *lot* of designs over to MCU's. Why do that? It turns out that the demonstrated reliability is *much* better. That's not just my experience, it's what everybody is seeing.

Anything can be designed wrong. That includes a lump of iron that goes from my hitch to my trailer. Mistakes get made. Each time they pound out an iron bar, it happens a bit differently. Each time code goes into an MCU, it's the same. Iron pounding hasn't changed in a long time. Computer Engineering moves along pretty fast. Eventually the variability in "the old way" makes for more trouble than the debug issues with the new way. That's happened in a lot of areas and it continues to happen today.

It's not magic, it relies on a number of things. You have to do things right. Doing it right actually is a lot easier than it was 10 years ago. Don't even think about trying to compare it to 30 years ago ...

MTBF wise, modern silicon from a good outfit is amazing stuff. That's not a guess, it's a documented fact. The sort of issues I would routinely see on JANTXV parts in the 1970's would be "junk grade" today (or even 20 years ago). Things have come that far.

There are a number of things I'd worry about on any anti-sway setup. The whole "one size fits all" idea is pretty near the top of my list. Reliability of an MCU from a good supplier? Very far down the list. That's based on personally putting millions of them into applications where I'd know if one failed ... boy would I know ....

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Old 07-11-2017, 09:22 AM   #223
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Your wealth of experience is laudable, Sailor. But digital technology has progressed way beyond stacked disc drives. Those large scale mainframe computer systems you worked on bear little resemblance to modern micro digital systems. I have no idea what the "MTBF" rate is for the latest ESC devices that rely on micro digital technology. But if is anything like the MTBF as you saw with mainframes, Apple and Microsoft would have gone bankrupt decades ago. Micro miniaturization has led to huge strides in reliability such that you don't have to worry whether your GPS will quit while you out in the Desolation Wilderness, that your Iphone will just quit working for no reason at all, or your airbags won't deploy when you need them.

The odds of hitting that MTBF low number are so remote its like the chance of winning the lottery. Nothing, tho, is 100% golden AFAIK. So if you can't stop yourself from worrying about redundancy et al, get yourself a couple of those little light bulbs on your dash (right next to your plastic St. Christopher) and keep an eye on them to feel assured the ESC is still on the job.

Let's assume tho, just for the sake of discussion, that the ESC does crap out. What does that mean, and what is the consequence? It means simply that the trailer brakes will not be individually activated in a sway inducing event. It means that your TV's redundant sway control module will instantly take over and send a brake actuator signal. This signal goes to both trailer brakes simultaneously, but that's still a vast improvement over old school sway control mechanisms that don't interact with the trailer brakes at all.

One final point. If the wind is so damn strong its pushing your rig...TV and trailer together...from side to side, what the hell are you doing out there on the highway trying to go 60 mph anyway? Slow down and pull off the road as soon as you can. The life you save could be mine.
Well reasoned and spot on.
As if mechanical WD Sway control hitches never brake and never need maintenance.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:21 PM   #224
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