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Old 07-04-2017, 10:19 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
There is no sway control routine for Hensley/ProPride because there will never be any sway when using one. The design keeps the trailer in alignment with the tow vehicle.
That is simply boastful rhetoric creating false expectations of a piece of simple equipment without the ability to generate force to counter the weight of a trailer. There are conditions where a trailer can completely get out of control without ever settling into a sway. I guarantee you that I can make a trailer sway with a Pro Pride or a Hensley.
This entire discussion about sway is overblown. Every type of vehicle has some sway most of the time. Just watch the semis.
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:22 AM   #182
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Older trucks did not have built in sway and traction control modules where the brakes would automatically pulsate side to side.
The reason for accelerating just enough to maintain forward momentum is to keep the trailer from jackknifing or rolling over depending on road conditions. That is one scary event I had the bad fortune to experience on Chicago's Eisenhower expressway in dead of winter with a 50' trailer. Not having any traction on the snowy pavement I couldn't maintain forward motion and watched helplessly as the trailer slowly jackknifed into the cab. Fortunately traffic was moving slow and everyone just stopped and watched the show.
That lesson I learned 50 years ago and never forgot. Came in handy a few times toting around with the AS.
Hi

Very glad to hear you survived the experience.

I lived in Chicago in that same era. Some days heading home, the only rational thing to do was to pull over at one of the rest areas. You could go indoors and sit over the expressway (the rest areas were built as bridges). Get a seat by the window and watch the "fun". After a few hours, either things calmed down or ground to a complete halt. If they locked up, at least you were someplace warm. If they cleared up, you got back on the road.

The conclusion most people came to after watching the traffic was that no matter how careful one drove, you were at risk. The most careful driver on the road could get rammed by idiot boy going 2X the rational speed. In some cases the only "right" way to drive is not to be on the road ...

Bob
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Old 07-04-2017, 10:37 AM   #183
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In some cases the only "right" way to drive is not to be on the road ...

Bob
Very well said, Bob. I find this to be true across this great nation and every other one I've been to. People just go crazy when ya put em behind a steerin wheel.
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Old 07-04-2017, 11:28 AM   #184
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. . . I guarantee you that I can make a trailer sway with a Pro Pride or a Hensley.

This entire discussion about sway is overblown. Every type of vehicle has some sway most of the time. Just watch the semis.
Frank, this is not to argue but to tell what we have learned and help others understand. The idea behind the Hensley/ProPride design is to eliminate sway. Hensley guarantees you can't make it sway.

https://hensleymfg.com

Within the design is the ability to keep the trailer aligned with the tow vehicle. Unlike a semi or fifth wheel, a Hensley/ProPride equipped trailer will not move out of alignment with the tow vehicle in steady or gusting side winds. Only the tow vehicle can initiate a turn and move out of alignment.
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Old 07-04-2017, 01:38 PM   #185
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No vehicle is designed to drive on ice and snow.
If that's going on, stay put if you can.
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Old 07-04-2017, 05:51 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
That is simply boastful rhetoric creating false expectations of a piece of simple equipment without the ability to generate force to counter the weight of a trailer.
It may be worth you looking at what the 3P linkage does to understand how it works. It doesn't generate force. Rather, it shifts the point at which the lateral forces are applied. Instead of lateral forces acting on the hitch ball, and having a lever to push on (effectively, the distance from the rear axle to the hitch ball), the lateral forces act close to the rear axle. The tow vehicle resistance to these lateral forces comes from the rear tires. Since there is no lever to cause the tow vehicle to yaw, there is not the cycle of driver steering correction, followed by a yaw in the other direction.
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Old 07-04-2017, 06:06 PM   #187
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Let's discuss this again, I missed the first dozen times.
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Old 07-05-2017, 02:12 AM   #188
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... Light snow packed down by traffic to form so-called "black ice" catches people by surprise every year. When there's no friction it's only a matter of time before someone loses control. When drivers are less than a car length (or semi truck length) apart doing 70 the results are predictable. Don't expect sway control to do anything in that situation. When the temperature on your car thermometer is below freezing it's going to freeze.
Black ice is a very thin coat of ice, not packed snow...so thin it is transparent. It occurs when wet roads freeze overnight. Even after daytime ambient temps rise well above freezing, black ice can still occur on bridges and shaded roadways. If you hit a patch of black ice, all you can do is take your foot off the gas and try to steer through it without hitting the brakes. Vehicles traveling too fast and to close together are in big trouble. Sway control is of little help. But if you have a Hensley/ProPride hitch system which theoretical locks your slide-prone TT in behind your TV, you can expect it to spin/flip your entire rig as a single unit when the situation gets beyond your control. Unless you have Superman reaction time and skill, you will not be able to make any kind of steering correction in time to avert the inevitable at that point.
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Old 07-05-2017, 03:02 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
...Frank, this is not to argue but to tell what we have learned and help others understand. The idea behind the Hensley/ProPride design is to eliminate sway. Hensley guarantees you can't make it sway.
https://hensleymfg.com
Within the design is the ability to keep the trailer aligned with the tow vehicle. Unlike a semi or fifth wheel, a Hensley/ProPride equipped trailer will not move out of alignment with the tow vehicle in steady or gusting side winds. Only the tow vehicle can initiate a turn and move out of alignment.
When the side force against your trailer is high enough it will cause the trailer to move sideways. If equipped with a Hensley/ProPride the force will act on your whole rig as a linked unit, forcing you (hopefully) to steer into the direction of the force vector in order to correct the direction of travel.

But the stated purpose as you say here is to help others understand what we have learned. At best, Hensley/ProPride...and any mechanical sway control method for that matter...is simply old technology. You see that at the end of the Hensley/ProPride video...the TV is a huge, late model 19??, V-8 powered 4 dr sedan. You haven't been able to buy one of those in years! Is that also when Hensley last made the pitch for their "patented" sway control system?

I don't understand WHY you are so intent on pushing a system with so many intrinsic faults when far superior, modern electronic systems are readily available....sophisticated lightweight systems that will activate individual trailer brakes to eliminate sway. Mechanical systems, including Hensley/ProPride, don't provide any kind of trailer braking...braking all comes from your TV. Does it help anyone understand what they are missing out on when you tell them a Hensley/ProPride is the best they can get? Cmon, Doug, you can do better than that.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:03 AM   #190
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Black ice is a very thin coat of ice, not packed snow...so thin it is transparent. It occurs when wet roads freeze overnight. Even after daytime ambient temps rise well above freezing, black ice can still occur on bridges and shaded roadways. If you hit a patch of black ice, all you can do is take your foot off the gas and try to steer through it without hitting the brakes. Vehicles traveling too fast and to close together are in big trouble. Sway control is of little help. But if you have a Hensley/ProPride hitch system which theoretical locks your slide-prone TT in behind your TV, you can expect it to spin/flip your entire rig as a single unit when the situation gets beyond your control. Unless you have Superman reaction time and skill, you will not be able to make any kind of steering correction in time to avert the inevitable at that point.
I know what it is, been on it plenty of times but I recognize the conditions for it to form and I don't tow when they are present. I've gotten out of groups of cars and then watched them spin out on several occasions due to "ice fog" or "black ice" or whatever you want to call it. The road surface has to be below freezing for it to happen. I'm not on the road with my trailer during those conditions. I don't care what anti sway device you use, once you get perpendicular to traffic you're done.

Thanks to tons of road salt "black ice" doesn't happen very often where I live but it also eats trailers so, again, not an issue for towing. Saw plenty of it when I lived out west though.
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Old 07-05-2017, 08:40 AM   #191
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We are supposedly on vacation when the Airstream is attached. Thus logic suggests getting off the road when the weather goes into a snow & ice mode. Arrive later but alive and undented.

The rest of the time, I have a Hensley Arrow on the 23D and a Pro Pride on the 31 Classic. They work for me.

Tuson has the ABS brake system to control individual disc brakes which would help with sway as well. But that system still has to be augmented by a weight distribution hitch in most RV applications with non-professional drivers in other than the one ton dually trucks the trailer delivery chaps use.
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Old 07-05-2017, 02:24 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Frank, this is not to argue but to tell what we have learned and help others understand. The idea behind the Hensley/ProPride design is to eliminate sway. Hensley guarantees you can't make it sway.

https://hensleymfg.com

Within the design is the ability to keep the trailer aligned with the tow vehicle. Unlike a semi or fifth wheel, a Hensley/ProPride equipped trailer will not move out of alignment with the tow vehicle in steady or gusting side winds. Only the tow vehicle can initiate a turn and move out of alignment.
My last comment on this I promise.

A: I will take that bet from ProPride or Hensley in a hearth beat.
B: This is where the situation gets murky. As I stated previously this whole
discussion on trailer sway is overblown because it assumes that a strong
side wind pressure, either from wind or a large vehicle passing ,will induce
uncontrollable sway. By the time winds build up to that strength most
sensible RVers are off the road and the side pressure is steady from one
side. Accidents due to sway are almost 100% of time are induced by
driver error. You look away for too long or fiddle with knobs, you look up
and some jerk is cutting you off, reflexively you jerk the steering wheel
and then over correct in reverse. This movement is induced by the TV.
The hitch assumes the TV is turning.
As I said many times, both Hensley and ProPride are great products and also very expensive. If it helps you to improve your level of confidence go for it . Its your money. However assigning legendary feats to these hitches is unwise at best. It creates a sense of false security and that can really get you in trouble.
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Old 07-05-2017, 08:32 PM   #193
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Say whaaaat?

and then there is "yada, yada, yada"? Not to be rude, but Man; how many years we going to see this thing re-hashed? (lots of experts here for sure) Everyone seems to have their favorite WDH with sway control. In any given situation, it can fail. Pick one, stay out of the extreme weather if possible, and drive safely.

I am happy with my BlueOx, on last 2 25's and now on my 28'. With my new F250, I know the "sales guy" tried to tell me I did not need a WDH but hey...there is enough evidence that having a WDH, will not hurt and likely would help in most situations while towing my AS...lets move on to a lighter topic...like how's the weather in Glacier?
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:25 AM   #194
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and then there is "yada, yada, yada"? Not to be rude, but Man; how many years we going to see this thing re-hashed? ...
Hi

We'll all swear it off and calm down. Next week, somebody will come up with yet another "which one should I get" thread rather than looking at the 226,987,251 threads already answering that question. Off we'll go yet again ...

Bob
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Old 07-06-2017, 11:36 AM   #195
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I'm almost reluctant to log into this mess
I recently lost my Hensley ...busted the head where the equalizers insert. I have replaced it with an Easy-Lift since I needed a new hitch immediately. I ran for 3 hours without the friction anti-sway in strong cross winds. Needless to say it was uncomfortable. I have now installed the friction bar and will be testing it out on an upcoming 4 week trip.
I really do miss the Hensley, despite the extra weight and tricky (sometimes) hook up.
I want to note that I have pulled my old '89 25 foot in icy conditions with a standard hitch head and friction anti-sway. Coming out of a truck stop I was unable to turn the rig due to icy roads on the access drive. I only regained control when the front tires of the truck caught the gravel edge of the drive. I have also pulled the '96 25 with the Hensley on icy drives. The truck could always turn because there is no lock up between the trailer and truck when the truck is attempting to turn.
This whole conversation was originally about controlling sway. Strong side winds shouldn't come into the conversation. Every vehicle is affected by strong side winds. The question is whether the rig is controllable and/or whether the strong side winds cause the trailer to sway uncontrollably. I never felt any issues with the Hensley in very strong winds on a Skyway other than needing to correct the direction of the vehicle as the whole rig was skewed. Not sure how stability control works in that situation. From my point of view, not all of us can afford a brand new TV with all the fancy brake controls, and very few of us will ever modify the trailer brakes to incorporate selective braking. So it is IMO unfair to shoot at the Hensley/Pro-pride advocates. These hitches are hands down superior to any basic hitch on the road. There are several new designs available that have yet to prove themselves. I don't have the link, but Andy did a slalom with an Airstream behind a Dodge sedan using the Hensley. The trailer certainly rocks and rolls but the sedan remained in control. None of us would want to have to do that maneuver.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:26 PM   #196
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With the eazlift you should use two antisway bars on a 25 or larger AS.
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Old 07-06-2017, 06:32 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
That is simply boastful rhetoric creating false expectations of a piece of simple equipment without the ability to generate force to counter the weight of a trailer. There are conditions where a trailer can completely get out of control without ever settling into a sway. I guarantee you that I can make a trailer sway with a Pro Pride or a Hensley.
This entire discussion about sway is overblown. Every type of vehicle has some sway most of the time. Just watch the semis.
I'll take the bet. I put my rig thru maneuvers you wouldn't dare after having bought a Hensley. Can no more shake the trailer out of alignment than you can lose your shadow. Can't wait to see the video of your test.

When sway starts: jam the throttle flat and nail the trailer brake controller as hard as can be. There's not a millisecond to lose.

Big truck is little different. We use what is commonly called a "trolley brake". A lever on the steering column.

TV ABS and antisway are nice. But the trailer brakes must be wired to accommodate left-right. Not all are.

The TUSON module was expertly reviewed here by Andy_T.

(Kent Sunderland a nice guy, but lacks in tech department. His review is good, but not expert).

The device is nice. Belt and suspenders to a VPP hitch.
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:48 PM   #198
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I wonder what the engine torque, how many transmission speeds, rear axle ratio, and load capacity of a 1987 Suburban 3/4 ton was 30 years ago, compared to a typical Airstream tow vehicle of today.
My father had a 1987 2WD 3/4T. Rear axle may have been 6k. So I had about fifteen years of his experience and mine. He ran it to about 190,000-miles before retiring from travelling at age 75. Same age as my grandfather when he parked his Streamline 31-years earlier.

The Suburban could no longer be had in half-ton with 454 that everyone wanted. It was the first year for TBI which was great, but the cam profile was such that the TQ peak was artificially low. I've only had one other vehicle that ran hotter.

Had a custom 5-row radiator built, a custom water pump, improved exhaust, big plate& fin trans cooler (came stock with oil cooler so you know Chevy was worried about it), custom fan shroud and earlier HD fan, etc. Nothing much helped. I went back into it and used a Cloyes Tru-Roller timing chain and indexed the camshaft. This didn't help greatly, but with all the mods it became acceptable.

Changed it over to 10W-50 synthetic and cut oil consumption to about 500/miles quart. Was a decent motor after the above.

Dad drove 55-57/mph. Averaged 7-8/mpg. 40-gal gas tank. With his 28' Silver Streak the combined rig was under 15,000-lbs. Dual Cam, the family standard since 1965 or so.

3.54 gears. Turbo-400. Firestone tires. Good off the line but no real power. Adequate otherwise.

His 1976 Cadillac was the better vehicle.

My folks enjoyed it for full-timing. Lots of space. Dual air conditioners.

Rolled in mid-air after hitting a 25' 6x6 laying athwart IH25 south of Walsenberg, CO. Dad almost missed that piece of dunnage. Just couldn't move that boat fast enough. It caught under the right rear as he moved to the left lane and lodged under the TT. Which went over portside and the propane tanks exploded. Good thing the hitch broke, huh? Launched that Suburban into a mid air roll and it landed on all four wheels. Trailer destroyed.

Three separate witnesses. Highway patrol was skeptical of my old man until two others showed the officers the dunnage it had taken both of them to drag away from the lane. He apologized.

High center of gravity = No good. Slow to steer, same. Lack of (not yet available) VPP hitch, same. Etc.

Run down the list of what comprises the best TV. Understand "why".

Basics matter.

With that Cadillac, it would have been a lot less dramatic as he'd have cleared the obstacle. Right over a ridegeline and there it was.

My father was good behind the wheel. One of the best I've ever seen. I don't remember any citations. Started driving in 1939. When senile dementia caught hold of him a lifetime of deep understanding of the rules of the road was such that the local DPS failed to flunk his driving exam. Even a supervisor from Austin was unable. We finally hid the keys and sold the car. M

Want to know why so many old people are bad drivers? Simple. They never acquired good habits, much less a theoretical understanding of the rules.

We travelled the US, Canada and Mexico as I was growing up. Watched the Interstates get built. Travelled 3-4 weeks st a time. I'd seen 46 of the 48 before high school finished.

I tell that next to last part because it wasn't "skill" that mattered in that accident. Probably saved their lives (fast move, but not too fast), but that inferior equipment was decisive in not avoiding the thing in the first place.

Luck has its place. Best we prepare all we can for it's hoped arrival.

Dad (being Dad) rebuilt that Suburban, got an identical Silver Streak, and they kept on. (Hard to screw with a war vet).

My folks are gone now, but the open road, the smell of coffee percolating in the morning, and the creaks of a Silver Streaks skin in the morning sun, all are reminders of times past.

You get one chance on the highway.

.
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Old 07-07-2017, 12:32 AM   #199
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Could you resend a link to Gratz three pass method.
Thanks
See the thread (and links) from a 2012 thread:

"CAT Scale Results .. your thoughts"

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Old 07-07-2017, 06:28 AM   #200
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Thank you for the detailed posts and fine remembrances of your family's AS history. Well said indeed.

Here is the link to that thread: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...hts-87964.html

Happy Trails.

Peter
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