VW Touareg diesel and 31 foot Airstream

[bono]

I am planning to tow SOB 6,000 lbs dry weight, 33 feet long. The car is rated to 7,700 lbs. It has brakes which are better than in ANY of the trucks on the market. I could mention lower center of gravity, etc. It was discussed to death.

Where is the safety compromised?

[nrgtrakr]

Originally Posted by cameront120

Did I miss where the OP was actually asking anyone for their opinion? Maybe the mods should start a dedicated thread where the truck people can feel free to criticize alternative vehicles so that posts like this one, where a person wants to show off his trailer and TV combo, can do so without it being hijacked by people with nothing better to do than rain on his parade.

I think missed the part about criticizing alternative TVs just like many missed the part about exceeding a TVs towing capacity.
Looky what happens when I put this knife in the toaster!
If this truly is a family, watching out for each other could be part of it.

[Jaxon]

Originally Posted by bono

I am planning to tow SOB 6,000 lbs dry weight, 33 feet long. The car is rated to 7,700 lbs. It has brakes which are better than in ANY of the trucks on the market. I could mention lower center of gravity, etc. It was discussed to death.

Where is the safety compromised?

Perhaps you should go to the SOB forum and ask...? Again, it’s isn’t just about the ability of a TV to pull a trailer of any weight, bono. And please remember, most of us here have been towing Airstreams for quite some time.

I’m done.
.
.

[rodsterinfl]

I know my post is "devil's advocate" but I want to point out something. The VW can tow, and, has power; however, all the specs go against heavier loads. First, the final drive is 3.21 with final gears of 0.83 and 1.0. The cargo capacity is 716#- (people, stuff and tongue weight) and a "pull capacity" of 7700#. This is a typical moderate towing machine. You would not be using 7th gear (0.83) while towing and the RPMs with 19" standard tires (29.5") would be around 2500RPM@70mph- around 700RPM higher than in overdrive cruising norm (around 1800rpm) dropping MPG and working the diesel low rpm loving engine extremely. This brings up questions about cooling, transmission, etc. Add to that the load limits and it is out of specs and a candidate for voided warranty no matter what you try to modify for such a load.

I know a few have already posted that manufacturer ratings are no count but they are required to test them to that level or use. We do not know the margin of error or final failure point but the ratings for towing are not just about frame. It is the whole vehicle and components- trans, motor, cooling, etc. Is it worth it to gain 2mpg over other options? I say no as, at least in my area, diesel is more expensive. Add to that Urea and that just about costs 2mpg difference. The Airstream is 10,000# with a tongue weight of 800#and, I can only add that my 25' has an advertised tongue of 860# but weighs 990# at the CAT scale with propane and batts. Just an FYI. The Touareg GCWR is in the neighborhood of 12600# while this package GCWR is around 15,000#.

[Dexterpix]

Notice the stiffness of the unibody allowing the need for only 1 strap and no weight distribution hitch. The frame on the truck flexed just enough to provide maximum stability.

Not sure how he can use that truck if it's not a diesel.


Joe D

[gmw photos]

Originally Posted by bono

I am planning to tow SOB 6,000 lbs dry weight, 33 feet long. The car is rated to 7,700 lbs. It has brakes which are better than in ANY of the trucks on the market. I could mention lower center of gravity, etc. It was discussed to death.

Where is the safety compromised?

Let us know how that works out for you. If you'd like some feedback on it before you do the the towing, post in the towing or tow vehicles sections over on rv dot net.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by rodsterinfl

I know my post is "devil's advocate" but I want to point out something. The VW can tow, and, has power; however, all the specs go against heavier loads. First, the final drive is 3.21 with final gears of 0.83 and 1.0. The cargo capacity is 716#- (people, stuff and tongue weight) and a "pull capacity" of 7700#. This is a typical moderate towing machine. You would not be using 7th gear (0.83) while towing and the RPMs with 19" standard tires (29.5") would be around 2500RPM@70mph- around 700RPM higher than in overdrive cruising norm (around 1800rpm) dropping MPG and working the diesel low rpm loving engine extremely. This brings up questions about cooling, transmission, etc. Add to that the load limits and it is out of specs and a candidate for voided warranty no matter what you try to modify for such a load.

I know a few have already posted that manufacturer ratings are no count but they are required to test them to that level or use. We do not know the margin of error or final failure point but the ratings for towing are not just about frame. It is the whole vehicle and components- trans, motor, cooling, etc. Is it worth it to gain 2mpg over other options? I say no as, at least in my area, diesel is more expensive. Add to that Urea and that just about costs 2mpg difference. The Airstream is 10,000# with a tongue weight of 800#and, I can only add that my 25' has an advertised tongue of 860# but weighs 990# at the CAT scale with propane and batts. Just an FYI. The Touareg GCWR is in the neighborhood of 12600# while this package GCWR is around 15,000#.

Just a couple of clarifications.

The final drive ratio is 3.27, not 3.21, according to VW. There are two overdrives, not one; the final two gears are .83 and .69. First gear has a 4.97 ratio. This is an eight speed Aisin transmission with a very wide range, so an analysis of final drive ratios should include that. You could take a five speed, which many are more used to, and see what the equivalent final drive ratio could be to get the same overall range, as Aisin does on their web site. Looks like the 3.27 with a five speed, is equivalent to a 3.59 final drive at the low end, and a 2.38 final drive at the top end, when using the 8 speed, from a quick calculation.

The payload is 670 kg, so about 1470 lbs, not 716 lbs. 716 is rated tongue weight.

Instead of analyzing the statistics, we could refer to the first post, where the OP noted that it worked well. Isn't that what should matter?

I think that manufacturer's ratings do count, they are a great starting point. I personally wouldn't want to ever exceed axle, or tire loads, and would be very cautious about exceeding GVWR. The tongue load rating is very likely being exceeded here, which makes reinforcing the standard hitch a good idea. The vehicle tow rating isn't being exceeded from the info provided, unless we know that the OP is overloading his combination, and he hasn't said that he is. If it was me, I would worry far more about the weights I was carrying, that the weight I was pulling, as long as the trailer was braked.

You quote 10,000 lbs for the trailer, but the OP noted that this is a 2015 International (Serenity, or Signature, not sure which). It weighs around 6400 lbs according to Airstream, plus cargo and options. It has a GVW of 8800 lbs, if it is loaded to the gunwales. Many towing with SUVs are wisely managing their payloads, to stay within load ratings.

I hear you on the diesel. I don't really want one myself. And that is after spending a career in the diesel (and natural gas) engine business, with heavy equipment and on highway HD trucks. I like gasoline engines that are smooth up to 7000 rpm, (but not when towing), like the BMW straight six. I can't pay back the diesel premium, and my wife doesn't like the smell of diesel on the fuel nozzle (we've had several diesel vehicles). So I would get the gasoline version, but that is just me. It tows the same, it has turbos to handle high altitudes, and it has more power than the same model with a diesel. Torque comes in sooner, just doesn't peak as high, but with an eight speed it doesn't much matter, rim pull matters more to me than flywheel.

I wouldn't be doing this with an SUV to save fuel, although it would be an added bonus. For me, an SUV is a better vehicle choice. From a high of 5 vehicles in the family (2 kids, now moved out, spouse's car, my car, weekend sports car) we are down to one vehicle. We don't want two. We park underground in a condo. An SUV works for us. If towing, we would have no interest in generators, firewood, boats, pets, etc. Two lightweight bikes are all we take. But that is just us.

Jeff

[rostam]

Originally Posted by jcl

The payload is 670 kg, so about 1470 lbs, not 716 lbs. 716 is rated tongue weight.

Jeff

Payload on the door sticker of Touareg I saw at the dealership was 1050. You won't find any Touareg with 1470 payload. Power seats, moon roof, heated seated, etc all cut into the payload.

[bono]

Sure, I will report back. Looking for a feedback on rv dot net is pointless based on my experience. 99% users will say this can't work. I have researched this topic over German SUV discussion forums and I collected information from the real users of similar set ups. AS forum is also a good source of information, as there is a higher percentage of German SUV owners here. Some people will never accept SUV as TV for a larger TT. This is not my goal to change the world.

I have seen many Europeans towing large travel trailers with cars which in the US would be considered as toy cars. If my combo does not work (which I believe is unlikely), I will buy something bigger, maybe Nissan Armada, etc. Do not know yet, as I have never tested the bigger SUVs. Definitely, I will not drive a pickup. Good handling is very important for me.

An example from Europe - not really a larger trailer, not really a toy car, but shows the difference in the approach to towing in Europe and in the US.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ8egtoUVuw

Originally Posted by gmw photos

Let us know how that works out for you. If you'd like some feedback on it before you do the the towing, post in the towing or tow vehicles sections over on rv dot net.

[nrgtrakr]

Also 6,400# is before options (AC, jacks, charger, microwave, TV antenna, spare tire, etc.) and variable weights (propane tank size, type, filled or empty; water heater size/filled; fresh, gray and black tanks filled or empty). These also effect tongue weight.
If we had the money to do it again, maybe a new diesel VW and a new 25' AS - but not 30'.

[DC Bruce]

One possible reason for different towing specs for the apparent identical vehicle sold in different markets is the difference in the length of the warranty. I'm told that power train warranties are significantly longer in the U.S. than in most other markets.
Regarding the difference between towing with an SUV or minivan vs. pickup (and substantially exceeding mfr. towing weight limits), I would not be particularly concerns about braking or horsepower or torque or handling. Rather I would be concerned about the engine's cooling system ability to deal with the much higher heat rejection of an engine running for long periods at a high percentage of its maximum output. The typical truck engine cooling system is designed for sustained operation at a much higher percentage of its maximum output than is the typical automotive engine. An easy way to see this is to compare the size of the radiator and/or radiator opening of a car vs. a truck with an engine of the same power. SUV's vary so much that it's hard to generalize. Many of them are little more than jacked up and shortened minivans with essentially an automotive drive train. Others are based on trucks. Still others, like those from the German marques, are somewhere in between.

[nrgtrakr]

Originally Posted by bono

An example from Europe - not really a larger trailer, not really a toy car, but shows the difference in the approach to towing in Europe and in the US.

From an article featuring the above video.
"A quick search for tow rating capacities for 911 Porsche Turbo’s comes up null as there are no tow ratings available. In fact, Porsche doesn't recommend using a 911 as a tow vehicle at all. The only Porsche capable of any such feat is the Cayenne, with a tow rating a little above seven thousand pounds."
http://www.examiner.com/article/pors...rench-motorway

A little searching and you can find the trailer in the video. Similar to a Casita here - maybe a Pastiche 460/2, MTPLM (GVWR) 1,455 kg (3,207#).

[nrgtrakr]

Personally I like this VW and RV setup.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwH9WeVEfU

[gmw photos]

^^^^ for sure, if there was ever a "bad idea in motion", that's it, but yet it's so cool....would be a blast to go zipping around the campground, tucking it into tight spots, pulling it out, finding another place to park it.......

[WaLee]

Been following this thread... And here i am worrying about the added tongue wt of the ProPride on my 23 behind my Cayenne.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[nrgtrakr]

Originally Posted by WaLee

Been following this thread... And here i am worrying about the added tongue wt of the ProPride on my 23 behind my Cayenne.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

Why?
You're what, all of 4,806# trailer weight before options and variables, 467# tongue and 6,300# GVWR?

[WaLee]

According to the spec sheet tongue wt. is 625. Never have taken it to the scales as I usually tow it with a 2500 duramax. Guess I'll have to see what it really is. I was being a bit facetious.


Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums

[Ted S.]

Originally Posted by Dexterpix

Notice the stiffness of the unibody allowing the need for only 1 strap and no weight distribution hitch. The frame on the truck flexed just enough to provide maximum stability.

Not sure how he can use that truck if it's not a diesel.


Joe D

Surely he's running Michelins.

[nrgtrakr]

And how do you know it's not a diesel?

[Dexterpix]

ONce they adjust the PRoride in the bed of the truck that thing will ride level as can be.