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Old 08-18-2015, 12:15 PM   #29
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Unless it's too much to control, too much to stop, too much to keep from rolling over . . . not to mention too much to pay for.
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgtrakr View Post
I'd never go there. Good luck with that.
I rechecked the numbers, they're good.
For anyone trying this line, not just this contributor:

Your "numbers" may be good as you conceive of the thing. There are those of us who started towing with stronger unibody cars in the 1960s and have tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles. With no failures or problems of note. Rigs with more stability as combination vehicles than using today's pickups.

So, yes, ignorance. Let someone else define the thing for you if you want. Or open your ears and start doing some reading. Don't try the "I value safety" argument otherwise. It doesn't work.

There's more to setting up a good combination than your preconceptions have room.
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Old 08-18-2015, 10:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
What you found was accurate.
... (etc.) ...
Happy, safe camping to you!
Thought so (numbers).
My Father was an engineer who grew up farming before tractors, taught me a little, especially building my first truck before I had a learners permit (41 Ford with a 327). He was also an avid RVer, who worked product improvement for Gates Rubber after the Titan Missile project with Martin Marietta shut down, we talked about those as well.
One of my first 'trades' if you will was the Army trained me to be an air defense missile system mechanic and technician. Which also included driving and caring for a 5 ton semi with a 50' trailer. That line of work lasted about 10 years on the Fulda Gap in Germany.
So for me, coupled with my studies of physics in university lets me know that maybe the rules of math related to mechanics can be bent up to a point - but I'm not interested, which is why I asked what I thought was a legitimate question. I also wandered off into the world of accident investigation, and found nothing favorable about towing more than a vehicle is rated for - frame or unibody.
I think I also mentioned the only reason I have the current TV is because it was originally purchased for something bigger. This is my 3rd RV, a 45' and a 30' 5th wheels previously. It's a great truck, it'll smoke the tires from a dead stop just by stomping on the throttle. The rodeo side of the family loved them because you could put 4 horses out back and the truck never knew it.
I've towed it's max - 10,000# and it never flinched. With pallets of adobe weighing just over a ton (only one pallet at a time), the steering was slightly squirrely, but otherwise strong.
*yawn*
I try not to judge because you never know for sure the complete background of someone else.
Happy, safe camping to you as well SteveSueMac
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Old 08-19-2015, 10:40 AM   #32
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VW Touareg diesel and 31 feet Airstream

Bubba, if you think a bed payload of a particular weight equates to a static TW measurement for the forces exerted dynamically, you've a long ways to go.

I've collected more oversize/overweight permits to go down the road at over 100,000-lbs than I can remember.

And run pickup trucks in commercial service with trailers that were more than twice the "tow rated" weight. Down roads none of us would choose to run our private vehicles. Were this a bad practice no commercial insurance coverage would be available. Far from it.

And am happy to be far away from doing college level physics. Formal logic wasn't easy, either, but it's a lot more useful today. Especially in looking at profit seeking entities. What data they choose to ignore (not collect information upon) says more.

If you believe TV weight matters, then the intersection of roll center height and center of gravity should be of concern to you. The short version is that pickup truck weight is helpful to a point, but there comes a point where it isn't. It then makes things worse. The propensity for rollover.
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:38 AM   #33
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That's nice.
Selective reading works up to a point.
Still doesn't answer the question about a TV (any TV - with a chassis or unibody) rated at 7,700# towing a 10,000# trailer.
Maybe all of the vehicle and trailer manufacturers are wrong.
Maybe the insurance company investigating won't pay because the owner knowingly violated the manufacturers guidelines.
Maybe the survivors will be sued.
Maybe you know more than the rest of the world.
I'll stick with the truck I already have and my 40 years of towing and hauling experience thank you.
BTW how's that Dodge with a chassis you tow your trailer with doing?
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Old 08-19-2015, 02:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgtrakr View Post
That's nice.
Selective reading works up to a point.
Still doesn't answer the question about a TV (any TV - with a chassis or unibody) rated at 7,700# towing a 10,000# trailer.
Maybe all of the vehicle and trailer manufacturers are wrong.
Maybe the insurance company investigating won't pay because the owner knowingly violated the manufacturers guidelines.
Maybe the survivors will be sued.
And maybe spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) without any data to back it up is unhelpful in the extreme to those who come here, hoping to gather information.

We know that this is not an insurance issue.
We know, at least of us who know how the legal process works, that this is not a legal issue.
We know, those who work in the marketing industry, that unlit, very recently tow vehicles were set almost entirely according to the projected use of the vehicle.

We know these things. Uttering vague warnings with zero backup is not useful participation.
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Old 08-19-2015, 02:14 PM   #35
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Why should I provide any data sources?
When I asked the question about a TV rated at 7,700# towing a 10,000# no one answered how that is possible, nor gave any references.
If pulling a trailer heavier than what the TV is rated for is working for you, great - best wishes.
I did my own research, found NOTHING factual that supported pulling a trailer that exceeds the TV capacity and so politely disagree.
Good day.
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:20 PM   #36
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I watched a lot of cartoons when I was a kid.

One can tow 10,000# with a 7,000# rated vehicle. Even more.
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:40 PM   #37
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what about the school bus full of orphans?

oh no!!!!!!!!!!

btw i tow with a BMW x5 diesel and love it. will admit it is a 1965 caravel that weighs 2500#
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:50 PM   #38
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Next to tow hitches, tow vehicles rate right up there in credibility competition. Sort of the politics of things or the religion of machines...

Or the "mines bigger than yours" arguments. SteveSueMac brings up a good point on respecting others who hold a different opinion. Rudeness is lack of reason (and some would say, maturity).
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:53 PM   #39
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No facts but the truth is many vehicles are working very well above ratings because they have exceptional design characteristics. Learn about them, it's not on the tables and charts. Many vehicles with high ratings have marginal overall safety ratings. The only fellow I knew personally who rolled his Airstream was towing with a F250, lost control in mountain crosswinds on a curve and couldn't get it back.

Just got our new issue of Airstream Life and Andrew Thomson from Can-Am RV has an article on towing Airstreams with modern front drive minivans. Has set up 3,000 of them. What makes them work is a nearly ideal chassis for stability. Some are towing 30's; fact is the ratings say they can't but the truth is they do, 3,000 of them.

If you like a heavy duty truck good for you. Do some research, it has some handling limitations but has high weight ratings. Tino's Touareg has some weight limitations but handles well. He likes the way it handles his 30' Airstream.
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Old 08-19-2015, 03:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Why should I provide any data sources?
....
I did my own research, found NOTHING factual that supported pulling a trailer that exceeds the TV capacity and so politely disagree.
Good day.
Ok, here is some data. Sorry the post is so long. The data is for a unibody vehicle built by Toyota. It isn't rated high enough for an Airstream, but the principles are exactly the same, and Toyota models appear frequently in towing limit discussions.

Your premise appears to be that the manufacturers' recommendations on tow limits represents an upper limit that is grounded in engineering and can't be exceeded.

True story. We helped our daughter buy a small Toyota. I read the owner's manual. It said, on two consecutive pages:

American models: your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Don't do it. Do not attach a hitch as the vehicle is not designed for this purpose. It went on in this vein for the rest of the page. Lots of red block print in large font sizes.

Canadian models (next page): maximum trailer weight is xx. Maximum tongue weight is yy. Respect the vehicle GVWR. Tongue weight must be included in your payload. If you install a hitch, be sure to use the one available from your Toyota dealer as it has been engineered to fit your vehicle. It went on for several pages. This is the most I remembered, so I looked it up today, and the tow limit was 700 lbs.

I checked the owner's manual for the same vehicle on the Toyota UK web site. Same vehicle, but optional engines that are all smaller and with lower hp than the U.S. and Canadian engine. Vehicle is built in the same factories. Tow rating was 2315 lbs, with a higher tongue weight limit. Around 1600 lbs with the smallest three cylinder engine available. The owner's manual went on for many more pages, and included GCVWR figures, a discussion of brake controllers with braked and unbraked trailer max weights, a discussion of load equalizing hitches, and so on. For a load equalizing hitch they recommended returning the front axle to unloaded height. And in case you didn't want to buy the Toyota hitch, it included a drawing of the factory engineered mounting holes in the unibody, with three options of which ones to use for your own aftermarket hitch, with bolt hole spacing for each choice. The manual was an international version, because it noted that towing was not recommended for South African models.

So, there is some data. A U.S. consumer could be forgiven for thinking that the vehicle wasn't designed to tow, because that is what the Toyota US marketing department told them. But apparently Canada is different (insert Canadian joke) and in the ROW, the tow limit is more than three times the Canadian limit. All for the same vehicle. Three times. And more than double for a three cylinder model with half the hp of the North American version.

And before someone claims that UK trailers are lighter, or have less tongue weight, that is irrelevant. The tongue weight limits were clearly stated in the marketing department's literature. Separate issue. Trailer frontal area was not discussed.

So much for an engineering basis for the recommendation, and the assumption that the recommendation represents an absolute limit.

Jeff
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:53 PM   #41
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Pretty sure they don't write different manuals for different countries for entertainment.
The example I gave you is one where Toyota wrote a single manual and said that if you took delivery south of the 49th the vehicle was not designed to tow, but if you took delivery north of the 49th please visit your Toyota dealer to get your factory designed hitch. Presumably, making it a good idea. If you aren't resident in the U.S.

There is more to the story, as I learned when I searched. Apparently the earlier model year of the same car had no towing recommended in Canada either. Toyota Canada responded to customer queries. It seems Toyota US did not.

Lots more examples if you would like. Want the links?

Your claim was one of absolutes. That makes it very easy to disprove. It is obvious that there is more to a tow rating recommendation than design limits. If we are talking about pickup trucks in a competitive market, tested to a standard, then towing recommendations are likely right up close to a design limit in some cases. But in other classes of vehicles, the absence of a higher limit doesn't imply that it can't be done safely, just that the manufacturer hasn't tested it up at those limits or that they have another reason for setting a lower limit. Their own liability, for example. Or maybe marketing. And when they provide multiple limits and conflicting statements for the same vehicle, they shine a light on that practice.

You mentioned earlier that your numbers were right. I am not disputing them, just the meaning you are reading into them.
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Old 08-19-2015, 05:25 PM   #42
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When I reference things it looks more like these:
I especially like the 1992 Washington State Forest Service document you linked that says never tow a trailer with a sedan or station wagon. Is this a trustworthy recommendation?
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