visited CAT scales - the numbers are in...

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Mikethefixit

Mustang
I wouldn't shot for equal weight on the steering. U know I have the 7.3 liter Harvester Diesel. F350SW/Crew/8ft.
Before I change trailer axles my weights were
Steering 4120
Drive 4580
Trailer Tandem 5060
Total Gross 13,760
This gives us as perfect a ride as I can get.
Hummm 45 yrs of big trucks has come in handy
Roger
PS Possibly we will make the Rally on the lake.Wife said yes. So we will see how the weather shapes up.

Mike.

Idealy, the front and rear axle of the tow vehicle, should be about the same weight.

The maximum difference is 10 percent.

Your weights show 5 percent.

What is the rating of your Reese bars?

Measure the top of the square bar as it goes into the trunnion.

1 " = 550 pounds
1 1/8 " = 750 pounds
1 1/4 " = 1000 pounds.

Andy

[HiHoAgRV]

Wow, a classic 2air thread.
Thanks for the info and it's cool seeing the "Years" old thread being used NOW!

[Airstream01]

Went to the scales a couple days ago. Brand new ProPride 3P with 1000lb bars and 8" drop on the adjustable stinger, pulling a 2008 Sarari SE 25FB that is pretty empty.
So I hitched up, set the W/D jacks at 12cm from bottom on each side, which nearly leveled the truck as best as I could tell sitting in my driveway, then I added 25 psi to both airbags on the rear axle, which finished leveling the truck and trailer, and I went back to the scales. New guy knew what was up, and I got everything weighed.

Truck is a 2001 F250 SD 4x4 Ext. Cab, short bed, 7.3L with a full tank of diesel (~30 gal), normal compliment of tools I carry in the toolbox, ginormous (and heavy) front bumper, and ~40 gal of fresh water in the potable water tank on the 'Stream, full propane, but I was not in the truck since I couldn't reach the button to tell the guy I was set up.

Front Axle----4140 lbs
Rear Axle-----4380 lbs
Trailer---------5460 lbs
GCW-----------13980 lbs

I was pretty happy with these numbers, and there was a bit of a line, so I decided not to reweigh.

With me in the truck, it would probably make the front axle about 4250 and the rear 4450. Add my dad or my girl and we're over 4300 on the front and its only rated to 4400 so I think I'm close enough for gov't work.

Based on my stop at the dump today (scale said 7540 empty), I've distributed ~900 lbs of tongue weight onto the truck, so the weight of the 'Stream makes sense.

Additionally, prior to this I towed right on the ball, no W/D or sway control at all. The ride was soft. With the ProPride 3P and everything dialed in, my butt can't tell any difference in the ride. Still nice and soft.

[Inland RV Center, In]

You must not have more than 10 percent of the total tow vehicle weight, on the rear axle, that's greater than the front axle, for safe towing.

Your rig, is well within that number.

Andy

[CanoeStream]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

You must not have more than 10 percent of the total tow vehicle weight, on the rear axle, that's greater than the front axle, for safe towing.

Please break this down into more than one comma-nist sentence. I don't know the relationship either of the 10% you mention or "greater than the front axle." And certainly you don't mean "tow vehicle weight" in the first clause. Simpler is gooder for my simpler noggin...

[Airstream01]

I'm fairly certain he means that the front and rear #s should be within 10% of each other, with the rear axle carrying the extra 10%.

My #s are w/in ~5% with the rear axle carrying the extra weight.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by CanoeStream

Please break this down

see post #7 bob.

the 10% notion is a nice idea but doesn't apply to ALL vehicles.

and as discussed in many threads,

the PRIMARY goal with w/d is to RESTORE steering axle loads to UN hitched values.

which may NOT mean EQUAL values for the load front/rear when towing with trucks.

SOME trucks have rear/drive axles with 1000 lbs+ higher capacities than the front/steering capacity...

so the 10% guide would NOT be useful then, OR IF it means OVERloading the steering axle.
________________

Originally Posted by Airstream01

Went to the scales a couple days ago. Brand new ProPride 3P with 1000lb bars and 8" drop on the adjustable stinger...

Front Axle----4140 lbs
Rear Axle-----4380 lbs
Trailer---------5460 lbs
GCW-----------13980 lbs

...With the ProPride 3P and everything dialed in, my butt can't tell any difference in the ride. Still nice and soft.

that's a really good starting point and certainly the numbers look great.

tow with, see how it all feels and rides over several 100 miles and varying conditions.

it also supports the notion that we can get pretty close by using good wheel well measurements, when a scale isn't handy.
____________

some random thoughts to consider or ignore...

-my truck has 6k axles front/rear, that must be the primary reason for higher tow capacity versus your 2001...
____________
WHAT is the rear axle rating?

-with air bags you have yet another factor for tweaking the arrangement,

which i'd be inclined to fiddle with several times.... fiddling is fun.
____________
there are WIDELY different views on how to use the bags, which to adjust first (bags or bars) and so on...

including the view that bags should NOT be used with w/d bars.

((be prepared for a deluge of posts on this issue))

i don't accept that view EXCEPT with hitches that RELY on bar tension/flex for sway control (like the dual cam)

your pp has full sway control REGARDLESS of w/d bar tension, even at ZERO...
____________

consider (as a trial) first adding air to the bags and THEN adjusting the screw jacks to reload the steering axle.

it will take less tension (i think) on the w/d to restore front axle loading this way...
_____________

you've got a ~400 lb front bumper on the truck???

that's a LOT of mass and uses up a lot of the front axle rating.

it' might be wise to ditch that for a normal bumper.

because after LOADING the motor bike and ALL your gear in the truck bed, the PAYLOAD may be OVER the ratings...
_____________

of course it's important to include YOUR driving assessment and road feel to each/every tweak...

i've reweighed my rig >10 times and learn something new with each of these exercises..


cheers
2air'

and THANKS for using this thread, the old posts are still useful and the value of weighing important for all of us towing streams...

[Airstream01]

2air,

the rear axle is rated at 6800lbs if I remember correctly.

front is 4400lbs rated

I'm not entirely sure what the front bumper weighs, all I know is its very heavy. It is an older Ranch Hand. There is a lot of steel in it. I'd like to ditch it for something with a little less weight, but the truck came with it, and I haven't found anyone who wants to trade yet.

Brian

[2airishuman]

gotcha!

so the rear axle is 6800 lbs vs 4400 lbs up front?

that's quite a difference are you sure about the front rating with a DEISEL powerplant???

4400 seems low given how much that 7.3 weighs.

my recollection is these trucks were ~5k front/rear.

the AXLE RATING is printed on the drivers door/near the latching mechanism...

what was the truck axle loads (especially the front) UN hitched???

here's another older thread that BElabors the axle loading issue but has some useful info buried in it too...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html

cheers
2air'

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by CanoeStream

Please break this down into more than one comma-nist sentence. I don't know the relationship either of the 10% you mention or "greater than the front axle." And certainly you don't mean "tow vehicle weight" in the first clause. Simpler is gooder for my simpler noggin...

Bob.

If the tow vehicle, when rigged to the trailer, weighs, as an example. 6000 pounds, then ideally, 3000 should be on the front axle and 3000 pounds should be on the rear axle.

The 10 percent means, in this example, 600 pounds.

Therefore, ideally, the front axle should not be less than 2700 pounds and the rear axle should not be more than 3300 pounds.

Andy

[Airstream01]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

gotcha!

so the rear axle is 6800 lbs vs 4400 lbs up front?

that's quite a difference are you sure about the front rating with a DEISEL powerplant???

4400 seems low given how much that 7.3 weighs.

my recollection is these trucks were ~5k front/rear.

the AXLE RATING is printed on the drivers door/near the latching mechanism...

what was the truck axle loads (especially the front) UN hitched???

here's another older thread that BElabors the axle loading issue but has some useful info buried in it too...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html

cheers
2air'

2air, I'll check and confirm in a bit, but I am certain the drivers door sticker say's the front is rated at 4400lbs. The rear is 6xxxlbs, but I'll make certain what it is. I think the front is a Dana 50, the rear is the Ford 10.xx inch full floater.

[Airstream01]

Rear axle rated at 6084 lbs

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Airstream01

Rear axle rated at 6084 lbs

ok, good info.

so the front is rated to 4.4k and rear ~6k.

as i recall the steering axle was ~4200 UNhitched?

if that's close then the 4140 (with w/d bars tensioned) is pretty close.
____________

so right NOW the values look good.

GVWR and GCWR will be important later with the big trip.

and don't forget 2 check the truck tires for proper inflation with this load.

cheers
2air'

[Airstream01]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

ok, good info.

so the front is rated to 4.4k and rear ~6k.

as i recall the steering axle was ~4200 UNhitched?

if that's close then the 4140 (with w/d bars tensioned) is pretty close.
____________

so right NOW the values look good.

GVWR and GCWR will be important later with the big trip.

and don't forget 2 check the truck tires for proper inflation with this load.

cheers
2air'

I have a sneaky suspicion I am going to exceed the GVWR (which is around 9k) on my move, but I don't think I'll break the GAWRs, it'll be close. GCWR is 20klbs so I don't forsee breaking that.

I'll have the trailer loaded up pretty good but I'm not taking a whole lot of extraneous crap so I think I'll be alright.

I topped off all tires, including spares this afternoon, so they're good to go.

[slowmover]

Check for load requirements/pressures on tires per Ford or the tire manufacturer. Dodge tells me that even at maximum load on my diesel that inflation pressure is to be 50-psi FF/ 70-psi RR on 80-psi tires. (the ratings on mine are similar to yours). Handling is (can be) adversely affected by "hard" tires. I tried 80-psi on one trip and could detect no advantage by the extra ten pounds; not in "feel" nor in temperatures.

Axle weight rating, IMO, is a no-exceed limit (more than a particular trip).

Have enjoyed reading the information posted, and look forward to more as the rig hitching is sorted out. I could not get that last 200# back onto the Steer axle with the Hensley, so looking to see how your different truck and different trailer work out with adjustments on the PP. (In other words, is it possible to overload the Steer axle with the PP due to leverage; and then back it down? Or?)

[Inland RV Center, In]

The front axle weight, "MUST" to some degree, increase when hauling a trailer, when using a load equalizing hitch.

If the weight, in any way reduces, then the hitch for all intents and purposes, is doing next to nothing, since it did not add any weight to the front axle.

In other words, all the tounge weight would be on the rear axle, and some of the front axle weight, would also be transfered to the rear axle.

Not good, at all.

Andy

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

The front axle weight....

when the tongue mass is added to the stinger/drop bar WITHOUT w/d gear, 2 things happen.

1. the drive axle mass increases by MORE than that tongue weight.
2. the steering axle mass goes DOWN from the UNhitched weight.

this REALLY IS simple physics and is WELL explained by nick's thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html
______________

the PURPOSE then of tensioning the w/d bars is to RESTORE front axle loads to ~ the UNhitched mass.

it takes HUGE forces to do this and would require even LARGER forces to INCREASE steering axle loads significantly beyond baseline.

even using 1400 lb bars tensioned to the MAX i'm unable to do that.

and have scale tickets to prove it.

besides this also causes the A frame on the trailer to FLEX, not a good thing and DOCUMENTED in other threads.

essentially the connection between the trailer/tv becomes RIGID trying to LOAD the steering axle beyond baseline.
______________

here's a simple example.

tongue weight=1000 lbs.

when loaded ONTO the ball/stinger that translates into...

drive axle load of ~1300 lbs, and

steer axle load of ~-300 lbs.

now using 1000 lbs bars (the proper size in this case) tensioned correctly...

the drive axle LOAD drops by 300-400 lbs (which is STILL 900-1000 lb added)

and the steer axle load INCREASES by ~300 lbs (which is BACK TO BASELINE)

pretty simple, and follows basic MATH (physics) and supported by dozen of people posting REAL numbers.

here's another example with real data and a relatively LIGHT trailer and tongue...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...-ii-21000.html
____________

with a 40 year old car and a 30 year old trailer and a tongue mass of 500 lbs and an OLD fashioned hitch...

some other outcome is possible.

but this thread is for ACTUAL NUMBERS from the scales not BS.

so pony up some figures (cat scale data) or ride on.

the EFFECT on owners/members here is that these MYTHS send them off on IMPOSSIBLE objectives wasting time and gear...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rig-36790.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html

cheers
2air'

[kennethowens]

From: 2Air
1. first measurements were done with bars adjusted by trial and
error over the last 4 months.....at the mid point between 1 and 2 on the cylinders.
steer axle 4680, drive axle 4800, trailer axel 9360, gcw 18,840
2. next was with the load bars complete relaxed......
steer axle 4400, drive axle 5120, trailer axel 9340, gcw 18,860
3. next was with the load bars maximally tightened (0 mark)
steer axle 4740, drive axle 4760, trailer axel 9360, gcw 18,860

From: Andy
The front axle weight, "MUST" to some degree, increase when
hauling a trailer, when using a load equalizing hitch.

From: Me
It looks to me as though Andy is agreeing with you. If relaxed is 4400#
and any loading of the bars increases the weight (4680#, and 4740#).

[Mikethefixit]

2air
You are correct We need only scale facts here.
Old Style Reese Dual cam Straightline w/ 550 lb bars
6 chain links under tension
Ready to camp.
Steering 4120
Drive---4580
Trailer tandem 5060
Gross -------=13,760 Driver off
Just the facts man,just the facts

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by kennethowens

...It looks to me as though Andy is agreeing with you. If relaxed is 4400# and any loading of the bars increases the weight (4680#, and 4740#).

the likelihood of THAT (agreement) ever happening is infinitesimal...

what isn't posted in THOSE numbers is the steer axle load UNhitched.

which at that point was 4800-4950 lbs for the truck in question.

so even MAXIMALLY tensioned, NO weight was 'added' to the front.

you'll also note in post #10 the advice to REDUCE the w/d bars from 1000 to 750lbs (tongue mass 1300lbs) ...

the "perfect" set up achieved with 1000 lbs bars but OVER time the bars would NO LONGER provide adequate leverage and the front end got LIGHT!

the solution to this problem was ADDING an extra leaf to the truck and INCREASING to 1400 lb bars.

that's the TOTAL OPPOSITE of the UNsupported advice often given here.

but the UP ratings (springs and bars) completely solved the w/d issue.

____________

the goal is to RESTORE front axle loads to baseline with these large/modern rigs.

it is a misconception that load is increased at the front axle, as it might be with a 5th wheel OR slide in camper...

and these trucks NORMALLY have axle load ratios of ~55/45 or 60/40 or 65/35.

and drive all day safely with that weight distribution ratio.

so the PAYLOAD (cargo OR hitch mass) goes to the rear axle almost entirely on the trucks in these examples.

a hitched/distributed ratio of 50/50 or 48/52 or 45/55 is a HUGE shift from empty truck but very very acceptable.

providing the steering axle is restored to ~baseline.
____________

besides many of the hitches referenced by me, '01 and others posting here do NOT rely on w/d for sway control.

even the dual cam doesn't rely on w/d. it relies on w/d bar FLEX to engage the cams.

with LIGHER bars, flex is achieved, but almost NO w/d happens if used on these big trucks.
____________

in fact referring to the hitch contraptions as "load equalizing hitches" is misleading too.

since in reality they are REdistributing, not equalizing....

on review, there is ONE statement we agree on...

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

...Unfortunately there is no "absolute" formula, only basic guide lines...

so now choose which basic guideline to follow...

cheers
2air'