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Old 01-28-2010, 12:36 PM   #99
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good report paul...

here are some thoughts (all of which u may have already thought) ...
________

1....based simply on the steer/drive axles with/out the trailer the tongue is ~700 lbs...

the problem with assuming that is the total is that some tongue mass is Redistributed to the trailer frame/axles once the w/d gear is tensioned...

it may not be much but 20-100 lbs is still something.

the old timers theory is that 1/3 goes back but i think this varies for longer trailers or newer suspensions...

anyway the tongue is ~700+ lbs or well over 10 % right?

adding more lp gas will obviously raise that too.
____________

2....if the trailer is riding ~1 inch low at the front, either MORE w/d bar tension is needed OR the drop/shank/washer thing needs tweaking...

there are LONG threads on adjusting the dual cam rigging, you've seen those right?

one of the main reasons to try for LEVEL is so the 2 trailer axles are evenly loaded, right now the FRONT axle is carrying more load.

3....if u are having PHYSICAL difficulty getting the bars raised to 3 or 4 links,

have u tried using the tongue jack to raise the A frame before engaging the chains?

that is useful to help with lifting prior to hooking up the chains...

4....your front/steering axle REloading to baseline is the primary goals of w/d gear imo

and the ride should reflect that NORMAL front suspension loading.

techically w/d bars CAN be used to increase steering axle loads OVER baseline...

but the bars need to be higher rated

AND there needs to be some other reason (like exceeding the rear axle load rating) to add this front end stress..

NICE job and the burb/25 looks like a well matched combo...

post some pictures sometime, these usually are helpful and always entertaining!

cheers
2air'
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:53 PM   #100
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Thanks for the quick reply 2Air. Your post jogged my memory about something. I think I can get it to 4 links now. When we got back from the trip I noticed that the Trunion bars were not riding in the curve, but a little behind it on the straight part. My chain pullers had slid out of place a couple of inches.

When we got home I took the chain brackets off. I also removed the steel cover that had been left on the trailer tongue beams (sure enough it was starting to rust under there). I put the brackets on back so the bars hit the cams in the curve, and it was much easier to get the 5 links than before. If I raised it a little higher I could probably get it down another link.

Just another reason to check everything each time you hook up!
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:16 PM   #101
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Hey guys!! Just stumbled on this thread by accident today. What a trailerful of info, thanks. I know now why my trailer is wagging the truck. This weekend it will hitch fine tune time and a trip to the CAT scales. Thanks again, all
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:30 PM   #102
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Deciphering the Numbers

I finally got around to putting my loaded rig on the scales last summer when we were on a caravan. Back on this thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ort-34484.html I fine tuned my hitch and ended up with the truck squatting 1/2 in the front, 5/8 in the back, and the trailer is 3/16 higher in the front when fully loaded and hitched up. So everything sounds good and level.

On the scale this is what was measured: 3,060 lbs. on front axle, 4,120 lbs. on rear axle, 5,000 lbs. on the trailer axles. That gives a GVW of 7,180 lbs, and a GCW of 12180.

The sticker on the B-Pillar says: Front GAWR 3450, Rear GAWR 3850, GVWR 7050, GCWR 14500, but these ratings are with the tires at 35 psi cold. I tow with the tires at 44 psi cold which gives them the max load capacity of 2403 lbs. each.

I'm concerned about the weight on the rear axle. We're not really carrying anything heavy in the bed other than a tool box, but that's probably about 50 lbs. So it sounds like I may have too much weight on the tongue, but we don't have anything heavy in the front of our 23 footer.

With the tires at 44 psi that would seem to give me a GAWR of 4806 lbs. which makes it seem like the rear axle weight is okay. Is that correct? The trailer and vehicle handle and ride very well. No problems with maneuverability, sway, or stopping power after over 20,000 miles with this set-up.

Any advice from the experts out there?

Randy
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:04 PM   #103
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good info randy

here's a quick interpretation, but MORE data is needed 4 this to be complete.
____________

TIRE inflation does raise the TIRE carry capacity but does NOT alter the AXLE rating/capacity...

so the 3450/3850 axle capacities do NOT change as the tires are inflated.

as i recall you purchased the lincoln with 20 inch wheels/tires right?
____________

based on the data posted your rig is OVER the rear axle capacity and the gvwr for the truck.

agreed?

the REAR axle loading can be improved by MORE tension on the w/d, assuming the properly rated bars.

but that won't change the OVER gvwr issue.
___________

with >1000 MORE on the rear axle as currently measures for this 'soft 1/2 ton' truck...

the steering/drive axle loading isn't ideal

(the rear/drive should be within 10-15% of the front/steering axle according to some guides)

imo this matters more for cars and suvs

but a 1/2 ton truck with 1100 lbs MORE on the drive axle is too much imo.
___________

the data suggests "3/16 inch" higher at the trailer front...

??does this mean the trailer front is higher than the REAR or higher after the w/d bars are tensioned??

IF it's already HIGHER at the front MORE tension on the w/d bars will raise it more, not a good thing.

this can be countered by increasing the DROP at the stinger ball by 1-2 inches...

((and really relates to HITCH set up discussed in the other thread))
______________

the online info suggests your truck has a curb weight of ~5600 lbs

and given the TYPICAL 60/40 weigh, the FRONT/steering axle is UNloaded a bit....

but you really need to WEIGHT THE TRUCK un hitched to have useful baseline numbers.

this is important for deciding HOW MUCH bar tension and how much weight transfer is needed to RESTORE the steering loads.
______________

what does the trailer TONGUE weigh (especially after loading lp gas and gear) ???

how MUCH stuff is in the truck bed and can any of it be moved to the trailer?

this is a 23 footer?

a/s reports the tongue at 750-800lbs and gwr of 6000 lbs ?

looks like YOURS is every bit of that, maybe more.
______________

so again briefly...

1. inflation increases the tire capacity but NOT the axle rating.
2. the front /rear loading isn't ideal
3. the rig is OVER the rear axle and gvwr on the truck
4. you need to WEIGH the truck unhitch (but with gear in the bed)
5. more spring bar tension is needed and perhaps a DEEPER drop at the stinger...
6. the trailer appears to be AT the gvwr or a tad over and the tongue pretty damn heavy...
____________
____________

ok, on edit i see you have 10k hitch with 1000 lb bars.

IF the bars are properly tensioned AND the truck is not LOW at the rear (squatted)...

then i would QUESTION THE ACCURACY of this scale reading (or the height measurements)

because 1100lbs MORE on the drive axle should be reflected in 2 ways...

1. rear squat
2. excessive rear tire wear.

IF these 2 things aren't happening AND the truck steering is good (not light and vague)

the scale values MAY be suspect.


cheers
2air'
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:38 PM   #104
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too late for an edit, but PERHAPS...

those are the scale readings BEFORE tension the w/d bars/hitch?

the numbers makes some sense as BEFORE measures.

cheers
2air'
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:35 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
as i recall you purchased the lincoln with 20 inch wheels/tires right?
Yes, that's correct. As far as I can tell, the only difference, other than trim, between my Mark LT and an F-150 is that the tow weight is reduced 100 lbs to 8900.
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based on the data posted your rig is OVER the rear axle capacity and the gvwr for the truck.

agreed?
Yes, I would agree based on the data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
??does this mean the trailer front is higher than the REAR or higher after the w/d bars are tensioned??
The trailer measured higher in front (frame to pavement) with the W/D bars attached and tensioned.
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
so again briefly...

1. inflation increases the tire capacity but NOT the axle rating.
2. the front /rear loading isn't ideal
3. the rig is OVER the rear axle and gvwr on the truck
4. you need to WEIGH the truck unhitch (but with gear in the bed)
5. more spring bar tension is needed and perhaps a DEEPER drop at the stinger...
6. the trailer appears to be AT the gvwr or a tad over and the tongue pretty damn heavy...
____________
____________

ok, on edit i see you have 10k hitch with 1000 lb bars.

IF the bars are properly tensioned AND the truck is not LOW at the rear (squatted)...

then i would QUESTION THE ACCURACY of this scale reading (or the height measurements)

because 1100lbs MORE on the drive axle should be reflected in 2 ways...

1. rear squat
2. excessive rear tire wear.

IF these 2 things aren't happening AND the truck steering is good (not light and vague)

the scale values MAY be suspect.


cheers
2air'
I'm beginning to question these scale numbers. Here's a picture of us just a couple of days after that scale reading. That doesn't look like anything is overloaded to me.

This summer, I'm going to put her on the scales again, but this time get a separate weigh on the truck, then hitch up and weigh the combination.

I'll let you know what comes out of that.

Thanks for the analysis 2air,

Randy
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:39 AM   #106
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Great and interesting thread!
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:56 PM   #107
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Joe: you did the same things that I did except the scales were busy, along the interstates they are free. I got my truck weight with the trailer disconnected. I weighed the trailer when I first got it before putting any stuff in it and have weighed the rig loaded for many different trips. Not knowing any better I measured a point on the hitch and then increased tension on the Hensley load transfer bars until the point I was measuring stopped rising. I assumed that this meant I had transfered all the weight forward that the bars were capable of. This turned out to be about 400#. At this point everything was level. Out of curiosity I did increase the tension to see if I could transfer more weight to the steer axel. The increased tension resulted in 20# more weight on the steer axel but no measurable rise at the hitch. I went back to the original setting and that is where I've been running ever since.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:54 PM   #108
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I am resurrecting this old thread. We are on the road with our 02 safari 25. I spent much time studying threads about the setup on the Reese dual cam hitch I have. I bought 600# trunions for my 2500HD truck. Set it all up according to what I have read here. I went to the cat scales today for the first time. Results: truck w/o trailer front 3680 back 3420. Truck with trailer w/o trunnions--- front 3340 back 4620 trailer 5180. Truck with trailer trunnions at 5 links --- front 3600 back 4280 trailer 5300.

AS pulled extremely well---no sway. Level trailer. This appears to be good setup. Am I missing anything that need to look at?
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:51 PM   #109
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Looks pretty darned good to me. If you want to try just for kicks, give it one more notch of head tilt and keep the chain the same and see where you come out.

How is it on measured ride height.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:22 PM   #110
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Looks pretty darned good to me. If you want to try just for kicks, give it one more notch of head tilt and keep the chain the same and see where you come out.

How is it on measured ride height.
I don't have the measurements with me. However what I remember is that the front of the truck returned to approx 1/2" of the height without the trailer. I don't remember the rear truck heights. Trailer is level. Trailer Axles are in good condition.

I am very impressed with how the 600# trunnions perform with the HD truck. Very smooth ride. I know there are mixed views about the 600# trunnions.

The next time I go to the cat scales I need to leave wife home. She did not enjoy the process at all. We are on a snow bird trip to Florida and she did not see a trip to the scales as a part of the iteniary.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:28 PM   #111
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I don't have the measurements with me. However what I remember is that the front of the truck returned to approx 1/2" of the height without the trailer. I don't remember the rear truck heights. Trailer is level. Trailer Axles are in good condition.

I am very impressed with how the 600# trunnions perform with the HD truck. Very smooth ride. I know there are mixed views about the 600# trunnions.

The next time I go to the cat scales I need to leave wife home. She did not enjoy the process at all. We are on a snow bird trip to Florida and she did not see a trip to the scales as a part of the iteniary.
I just told my wife to go hang out with the smelly guys in the big trucks.....then it was fine.

I did 800# bars with my 30'er. Love it with a 2500HD. Perfect balance. 600# should be fine with your size. You're really close to perfect...I might be curious to try one more notch of tilt just to see if I like it better. Plus, if you're like me, the rig will gain weight in the bed and trailer (inc. tongue weight) sooner than you think.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:29 PM   #112
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do you know your actual loaded tongue weight?
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