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Old 12-06-2009, 05:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
gotcha!

so the rear axle is 6800 lbs vs 4400 lbs up front?

that's quite a difference are you sure about the front rating with a DEISEL powerplant???

4400 seems low given how much that 7.3 weighs.

my recollection is these trucks were ~5k front/rear.

the AXLE RATING is printed on the drivers door/near the latching mechanism...

what was the truck axle loads (especially the front) UN hitched???

here's another older thread that BElabors the axle loading issue but has some useful info buried in it too...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html

cheers
2air'
2air, I'll check and confirm in a bit, but I am certain the drivers door sticker say's the front is rated at 4400lbs. The rear is 6xxxlbs, but I'll make certain what it is. I think the front is a Dana 50, the rear is the Ford 10.xx inch full floater.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:06 PM   #72
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Rear axle rated at 6084 lbs
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:41 PM   #73
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Rear axle rated at 6084 lbs
ok, good info.

so the front is rated to 4.4k and rear ~6k.

as i recall the steering axle was ~4200 UNhitched?

if that's close then the 4140 (with w/d bars tensioned) is pretty close.
____________

so right NOW the values look good.

GVWR and GCWR will be important later with the big trip.

and don't forget 2 check the truck tires for proper inflation with this load.

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-06-2009, 09:34 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
ok, good info.

so the front is rated to 4.4k and rear ~6k.

as i recall the steering axle was ~4200 UNhitched?

if that's close then the 4140 (with w/d bars tensioned) is pretty close.
____________

so right NOW the values look good.

GVWR and GCWR will be important later with the big trip.

and don't forget 2 check the truck tires for proper inflation with this load.

cheers
2air'
I have a sneaky suspicion I am going to exceed the GVWR (which is around 9k) on my move, but I don't think I'll break the GAWRs, it'll be close. GCWR is 20klbs so I don't forsee breaking that.

I'll have the trailer loaded up pretty good but I'm not taking a whole lot of extraneous crap so I think I'll be alright.

I topped off all tires, including spares this afternoon, so they're good to go.
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Old 12-07-2009, 03:42 AM   #75
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Check for load requirements/pressures on tires per Ford or the tire manufacturer. Dodge tells me that even at maximum load on my diesel that inflation pressure is to be 50-psi FF/ 70-psi RR on 80-psi tires. (the ratings on mine are similar to yours). Handling is (can be) adversely affected by "hard" tires. I tried 80-psi on one trip and could detect no advantage by the extra ten pounds; not in "feel" nor in temperatures.

Axle weight rating, IMO, is a no-exceed limit (more than a particular trip).

Have enjoyed reading the information posted, and look forward to more as the rig hitching is sorted out. I could not get that last 200# back onto the Steer axle with the Hensley, so looking to see how your different truck and different trailer work out with adjustments on the PP. (In other words, is it possible to overload the Steer axle with the PP due to leverage; and then back it down? Or?)
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:47 AM   #76
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The front axle weight, "MUST" to some degree, increase when hauling a trailer, when using a load equalizing hitch.

If the weight, in any way reduces, then the hitch for all intents and purposes, is doing next to nothing, since it did not add any weight to the front axle.

In other words, all the tounge weight would be on the rear axle, and some of the front axle weight, would also be transfered to the rear axle.

Not good, at all.

Andy
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:24 AM   #77
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The front axle weight....



when the tongue mass is added to the stinger/drop bar WITHOUT w/d gear, 2 things happen.

1. the drive axle mass increases by MORE than that tongue weight.
2. the steering axle mass goes DOWN from the UNhitched weight.

this REALLY IS simple physics and is WELL explained by nick's thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html
______________

the PURPOSE then of tensioning the w/d bars is to RESTORE front axle loads to ~ the UNhitched mass.

it takes HUGE forces to do this and would require even LARGER forces to INCREASE steering axle loads significantly beyond baseline.

even using 1400 lb bars tensioned to the MAX i'm unable to do that.

and have scale tickets to prove it.

besides this also causes the A frame on the trailer to FLEX, not a good thing and DOCUMENTED in other threads.

essentially the connection between the trailer/tv becomes RIGID trying to LOAD the steering axle beyond baseline.
______________

here's a simple example.

tongue weight=1000 lbs.

when loaded ONTO the ball/stinger that translates into...

drive axle load of ~1300 lbs, and

steer axle load of ~-300 lbs.

now using 1000 lbs bars (the proper size in this case) tensioned correctly...

the drive axle LOAD drops by 300-400 lbs (which is STILL 900-1000 lb added)

and the steer axle load INCREASES by ~300 lbs (which is BACK TO BASELINE)

pretty simple, and follows basic MATH (physics) and supported by dozen of people posting REAL numbers.

here's another example with real data and a relatively LIGHT trailer and tongue...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...-ii-21000.html
____________

with a 40 year old car and a 30 year old trailer and a tongue mass of 500 lbs and an OLD fashioned hitch...

some other outcome is possible.

but this thread is for ACTUAL NUMBERS from the scales not BS.

so pony up some figures (cat scale data) or ride on.

the EFFECT on owners/members here is that these MYTHS send them off on IMPOSSIBLE objectives wasting time and gear...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rig-36790.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:48 PM   #78
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From: 2Air
1. first measurements were done with bars adjusted by trial and
error over the last 4 months.....at the mid point between 1 and 2 on the cylinders.
steer axle 4680, drive axle 4800, trailer axel 9360, gcw 18,840
2. next was with the load bars complete relaxed......
steer axle 4400, drive axle 5120, trailer axel 9340, gcw 18,860
3. next was with the load bars maximally tightened (0 mark)
steer axle 4740, drive axle 4760, trailer axel 9360, gcw 18,860

From: Andy
The front axle weight, "MUST" to some degree, increase when
hauling a trailer, when using a load equalizing hitch.

From: Me
It looks to me as though Andy is agreeing with you. If relaxed is 4400#
and any loading of the bars increases the weight (4680#, and 4740#).
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:58 PM   #79
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2air
You are correct We need only scale facts here.
Old Style Reese Dual cam Straightline w/ 550 lb bars
6 chain links under tension
Ready to camp.
Steering 4120
Drive---4580
Trailer tandem 5060
Gross -------=13,760 Driver off
Just the facts man,just the facts
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:17 PM   #80
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...It looks to me as though Andy is agreeing with you. If relaxed is 4400# and any loading of the bars increases the weight (4680#, and 4740#).
the likelihood of THAT (agreement) ever happening is infinitesimal...

what isn't posted in THOSE numbers is the steer axle load UNhitched.

which at that point was 4800-4950 lbs for the truck in question.

so even MAXIMALLY tensioned, NO weight was 'added' to the front.

you'll also note in post #10 the advice to REDUCE the w/d bars from 1000 to 750lbs (tongue mass 1300lbs) ...

the "perfect" set up achieved with 1000 lbs bars but OVER time the bars would NO LONGER provide adequate leverage and the front end got LIGHT!

the solution to this problem was ADDING an extra leaf to the truck and INCREASING to 1400 lb bars.

that's the TOTAL OPPOSITE of the UNsupported advice often given here.

but the UP ratings (springs and bars) completely solved the w/d issue.

____________

the goal is to RESTORE front axle loads to baseline with these large/modern rigs.

it is a misconception that load is increased at the front axle, as it might be with a 5th wheel OR slide in camper...

and these trucks NORMALLY have axle load ratios of ~55/45 or 60/40 or 65/35.

and drive all day safely with that weight distribution ratio.

so the PAYLOAD (cargo OR hitch mass) goes to the rear axle almost entirely on the trucks in these examples.

a hitched/distributed ratio of 50/50 or 48/52 or 45/55 is a HUGE shift from empty truck but very very acceptable.

providing the steering axle is restored to ~baseline.
____________

besides many of the hitches referenced by me, '01 and others posting here do NOT rely on w/d for sway control.

even the dual cam doesn't rely on w/d. it relies on w/d bar FLEX to engage the cams.

with LIGHER bars, flex is achieved, but almost NO w/d happens if used on these big trucks.
____________

in fact referring to the hitch contraptions as "load equalizing hitches" is misleading too.

since in reality they are REdistributing, not equalizing....

on review, there is ONE statement we agree on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
...Unfortunately there is no "absolute" formula, only basic guide lines...
so now choose which basic guideline to follow...

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:35 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
The stiffer the torsion bars, the stiffer the ride for the trailer. If you add to that a stiff suspension system on the tow vehicle, then the trailer winds up being punish by considerable road vibration.

Airstream trailers like a "soft" ride. When the ride changes to rough or stiff, then strange things happen to the trailer, that are usually expensive to repair as well.

Andy
You can add this to the gibberish bin as well, while you're at it.

"heavy-duty", or more accurately, "properly-rated" hitches and vehicles, DO NOT 'transmit' appreciably increased forces to the trailer, over lighter torsion bars and/or softer suspensions.

Here's my airforum thread:
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...tch-53341.html

I also condensed my findings on my blog:
Measuring Forces at the Hitch
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Old 12-07-2009, 01:45 PM   #82
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Whenever a person hooks up a bumper pull anything
that is heavy and it squats down the rear bumper, there
is only a few things that can be done:

a.) Stiffen the connection(WD bars) - Yes.
b.) Reinforce the springs on the rear axle. - Yes
c.) Counterbalance weights at front(of TV) - No
d.) Counterbalance weights on rear(of trailer) - No
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:48 PM   #83
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Whenever a person hooks up a bumper pull anything that is heavy and it squats down the rear bumper, there
is only a few things that can be done...
kenneth

i don't think anyone using the info IN this thread is towing on the 'bumper pull'...

but if your goal is to 'splain the options for w/d or not here are some great threads for that...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tch-58236.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tion-5384.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ars-23809.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...hed-36200.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...-it-46606.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...oad-51887.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ase-36437.html

the general goal for THIS thread was to post ACTUAL scale readings, sort out the data, and promote the VALUE of weighing our rigs.

have u scaled the argosy/ford combo? we'd love to see your numbers and axle loads as measured.

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:02 AM   #84
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First: I appreciate you work and documentation!

Second: I also appreciate your purpose to "promote the
VALUE of weighing our rigs."

Third: I referred to "bumper pull" as that at the extreme
rear of the the TV.

Fourth: My goal is not "to 'splain the options for w/d or not".
Thanks for the XREF's, though they meander about too in
normal forum fashion. My goal was / is only to learn from this thread.
Only to read and increase my understanding - not to redirect.

Fifth: I noticed that flyfisher in post #30 of this thread came to
a conclusion(maybe temporary) about loading the rear of his
trailer. Similar to my observation in post #82 item D. Some of
this stuff was learned in childhood play before video games.

Sixth: I have not yet weighed my rig. That is on my list of things
to do. I can't see that it would make a tremendous difference
at this time because I have an older Reese system. I will measure
the top of the square bar as it goes into the trunion, as Andy
mentioned, to see the rating of my current bars.

Thanks
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