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06-28-2019, 05:44 PM
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#121
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkcurtiss
Holy Cow! How is one virtually identical trailer 3000lbs heavier than the other?
You load that much stuff into your "72?
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It's heavily remodeled and loaded for full time right now.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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06-28-2019, 05:52 PM
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#122
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4 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 377
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From Richard H Klein P E
“The statement “too much tongue weight can force the truck down in the back, causing the front wheels to lift to the point where steering response and braking can be severely decreased” is not the real issue with heavy tongue weights. The real problem is that the tow vehicle's yaw stability, as measured by “understeer gradient”, is severely decreased. This increases the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers. Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized.”
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06-28-2019, 06:37 PM
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#123
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Rivet Master
2019 28' Flying Cloud
2014 22' FB Sport
Davie
, FL
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
From Richard H Klein P E
“The statement “too much tongue weight can force the truck down in the back, causing the front wheels to lift to the point where steering response and braking can be severely decreased” is not the real issue with heavy tongue weights. The real problem is that the tow vehicle's yaw stability, as measured by “understeer gradient”, is severely decreased. This increases the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers. Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized.”
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Im starting to think that wd hitches should be banned. That would force people to get proper sized tow vehicles. It would also stop vehicle manafacturers from making wild claims about their towing capabilities and it would stop trailer manafacturers from selling large trailers to people who cant safely tow them.
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06-28-2019, 06:43 PM
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#124
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Rivet Master
2012 25' FB Eddie Bauer
Vintage Kin Owner
Virginia Beach
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,801
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From the woman.
I wish Protagonist would chime in here. His cool analytic posts, which are also quite lacking in snarkiness have always resonated with me.
One of his best points - that driving 200,000 miles without an accident does NOT prove your expertise... you MAY BE an excellent driver, or you may just be lucky and a fairly good driver.
Lately I have wanted to add a 3rd classification... are you perhaps so aggressively disrespectful of other people's rights that you are unscathed because other people give you wide berth?
Real safety requires concentration and not letting ypur ego write checks your body will have to pay.
You can drive 85 mph on just the ball and arrive home unscathed... intil you don't. Good safety equipment can easily be defeated by a driver with acute cranial-rectal inversion.
Lets all an to arrive home safely.
__________________
Today is a gift, that's why they call it the present.
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06-28-2019, 06:43 PM
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#125
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Rivet Master
2019 30' Classic
Belen
, New Mexico
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized.”
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I'm thinking you should actually read the document you are attempting to quote. Nowhere in that document does it even suggest what you say it does. In fact, it very specifically refers one to the manufacturers recommendations on towing.
The only place where this document suggests not using a WD hitch is when calculating GAWR to make sure you haven't exceeded any particular axle rating. This document is most decidedly NOT anti WD hitch.
The document even has a section on using aftermarket WD hitches and how to calculate their setup.
---
Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.
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06-28-2019, 07:07 PM
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#126
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkcurtiss
Thank you for proving my position....
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Which position would that be?
The head in the sand position?😂
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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06-28-2019, 07:45 PM
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#127
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
... Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized.”
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Houston, we have a problem.
The most recent revision of J2807 is from 2016/02/04. A quick search of the text shows that the word minimized, which is within your quote marks, appears zero times in the standard.
Houston, we have another problem.
SAE J2807 is not a performance standard. It is a testing standard. As such, it values reproducibility over performance. If you want to quote it as a performance standard, or recommended practice, perhaps you could explain why it requires that you disconnect your trailer brakes, just as one example. Reproducibility over performance.
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06-28-2019, 07:51 PM
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#128
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4 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephraim
I'm thinking you should actually read the document you are attempting to quote. Nowhere in that document does it even suggest what you say it does. In fact, it very specifically refers one to the manufacturers recommendations on towing.
The only place where this document suggests not using a WD hitch is when calculating GAWR to make sure you haven't exceeded any particular axle rating. This document is most decidedly NOT anti WD hitch.
The document even has a section on using aftermarket WD hitches and how to calculate their setup.
---
Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.
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I for one have never said that a WDH should not ever be used. I use one but use minimal tension on the bars. I can pull my trailer safely and confidently without one at 65 mph though. My only beef in all this is that 100% FALR should not be used as is promoted by many on this site. The vehicle manufacturers tell you what FALR is suitable for the vehicle. The best way to achieve the best balance of understeer gradient and sway damping ratio is to first. Select a TV that when TW is applied it does not put the vehicle too close to neutral/oversteer. Second, the trailer should be designed and loaded so stability is achieved without the aid of or reliance on the sway control of a hitch while minimizing tongue weight. I have no doubt that some trailers by design have such a high yaw inertia that a reasonable sway damping ratio is never going to be achieved. It sucks to have one those. If out of site has a good combination well that’s great, a WDH and 100% FALR will not make it better nor will 50% for that matter.
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06-28-2019, 08:18 PM
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#129
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
Vancouver
, British Columbia
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized.”
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As posted above, no, it didn’t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
My only beef in all this is that 100% FALR should not be used as is promoted by many on this site. The vehicle manufacturers tell you what FALR is suitable for the vehicle.
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Got it. What should we do when Out of Sight calls for banning unsafe rigs, in this case those that operate outside the parameters specified by the manufacturer? More specifically, those that ignore the manufacturer’s call for WD and 50% FALR?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAE J2807
If a weight distributing hitch is recommended by the tow vehicle manufacturer for the GCWR/TWR under test, it should be adjusted per tow-vehicle manufacturer’s instructions or to 100% FALR if no particular value is specified.
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Wait, what? First J2807 is an authority on towing performance (it isn’t) and then you contradict your own source? So 100% FALR is bad?
Endless hours of entertainment!
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06-28-2019, 09:18 PM
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#130
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Rivet Master
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,103
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As a person who goes on caravans a lot I have inspected over 500 rigs as a de-parker. I have never seen any one towing their Airstream without a WD hitch.
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06-28-2019, 10:08 PM
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#131
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Rivet Master
2019 28' Flying Cloud
2014 22' FB Sport
Davie
, FL
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M.
As a person who goes on caravans a lot I have inspected over 500 rigs as a de-parker. I have never seen any one towing their Airstream without a WD hitch.
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I cant wait to roll into a campground towing on the ball as the hitch people are all sitting around the campfire with their hitch manuals arguing over FALR.
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06-28-2019, 10:52 PM
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#132
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Rivet Master
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,103
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How many miles a year do you tow? Ever tow in the Rockies? Alaska? The Baha? Newfoundland? These people actually leave elevation 1 fathom above sea level sometimes. Maybe “towing on the ball”: is a Florida thing? I have yet to meet all these people that do not know what they are doing that you seem to know. All the Airstreamers around the fire are pilots or boat captains and have little trouble with a trailer.
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06-28-2019, 11:45 PM
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#133
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Rivet Master
2005 25' Safari
Salem
, Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M.
As a person who goes on caravans a lot I have inspected over 500 rigs as a de-parker. I have never seen any one towing their Airstream without a WD hitch.
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Hi, at the Balloon Fiesta about ten years ago I saw an Airstream being towed without a WD hitch. It was an S-10 Chevy towing a Bambi 16'er. And it was constantly swaying so I stayed clear of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight
I cant wait to roll into a campground towing on the ball as the hitch people are all sitting around the campfire with their hitch manuals arguing over FALR.
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Hi, in my case my truck's receiver [owner's manual] states that anything over 500 lbs tongue weight requires a WD hitch. [my tongue weight is 900 lbs.] The only time that I ever tow my trailer on the ball is when I pull it forward about 30' in my driveway to work on it.
Someone made a statement that if you need a WD hitch your tow vehicle is too small. Now we are back to everyone needs to tow with a Kenworth.
__________________
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent" Small Silver Castle
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
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06-28-2019, 11:57 PM
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#134
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by out of sight
I cant wait to roll into a campground towing on the ball as the hitch people are all sitting around the campfire with their hitch manuals arguing over FALR.
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While I like more weight on the rear axle than doing WD "by the book" and in my view there are a lot of people who over think and over leverage their WD, but they that's their deal not mine or yours.
That being the case, you might consider not playing the role of the brutal Air Forums adversary quite so seriously....
Just something you might think about....
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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06-29-2019, 04:26 AM
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#136
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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What this forum needs is more agreeing to disagree and less arguing.
RV's aren't worth getting bent over, and politics isn't allowed, so there should be very little arguing on AF.
#JustSayin
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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06-29-2019, 05:44 AM
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#137
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4 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Baltimore
, Maryland
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 377
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You can twist it around as much as you want but facts are facts. What Mr Klein states is true as it was quoted. Vehicle manufacturers support it, hitch manufacturers support it now as well. I hope the new people to towing read they’re owners manual and follow it instead of asking those here for advice.
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06-29-2019, 05:51 AM
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#138
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profxd
You can twist it around as much as you want but facts are facts. What Mr Klein states is true as it was quoted. Vehicle manufacturers support it, hitch manufacturers support it now as well. I hope the new people to towing read they’re owners manual and follow it instead of asking those here for advice.
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Twisting again...must be a favorite personal expression.😂
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
I’m done with ‘adulting’…Let’s go find Bigfoot.
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06-29-2019, 05:56 AM
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#139
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Rivet Master
2019 28' Flying Cloud
2014 22' FB Sport
Davie
, FL
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M.
How many miles a year do you tow? Ever tow in the Rockies? Alaska? The Baha? Newfoundland? These people actually leave elevation 1 fathom above sea level sometimes. Maybe “towing on the ball”: is a Florida thing? I have yet to meet all these people that do not know what they are doing that you seem to know. All the Airstreamers around the fire are pilots or boat captains and have little trouble with a trailer.
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I've done Florida to Alaska a couple of times. Doing Labrador next month. Nothing particularly challenging for towing. My trailer swayed once, during a tornado in Florida. That was the worst towing experience and we weren't even hitched up. Haven't gotten to Baja yet. I'm working on Tierra del Fuego. The problem is not the rig, it's the wife. She's afraid of the people, not the roads, even though we lived in South America for 5 years. We may have to do it in a Sprinter. The trailer draws too much attention.
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06-29-2019, 06:02 AM
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#140
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Rivet Master
2019 28' Flying Cloud
2014 22' FB Sport
Davie
, FL
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS
in my case my truck's receiver [owner's manual] states that anything over 500 lbs tongue weight requires a WD hitch. [my tongue weight is 900 lbs.] The only time that I ever tow my trailer on the ball is when I pull it forward about 30' in my driveway to work on it.
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My SUV owners manual says I can tow 7200 lbs on the ball and it doesn't allow WD hitches. Go figure.
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