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Old 07-15-2016, 10:03 AM   #113
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The numbers show that a both half-tonpickups and crew cab diesels handle safely. They all steer will and have good grip.They are also all "tow-tested" so the days of "magic" tow ratings are going away. All offer better transmission, and the diesels now all have integrated engine brakes, which are the absolute cats meow for towing. So pick what you want everyone, but please go dig up the performance data on what you are picking as you can see Car and Driver has done the research for us, we just have to do the homework.
Be careful comparing skid pad numbers which are measured on a perfectly smooth surface, for vehicles with very different suspension designs. The F250 has two live axles. Modern sport utilities have fully independent suspension, often with active dampers. How do you think the comparison would look on real world roads? I see the F250 needs 246 feet to stop from 70, without a trailer. Take 70 feet off that for a good sport utility. I think an F250 can be safe, driven appropriately, but not as safe as a sport utility.

The F250 looks good if you need to carry that much cargo, or tow over 10,000 lbs. My tow vehicle has to serve as daily transport for 75% of the time, so an F250 loses points.

Jeff
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:13 AM   #114
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1600# seems a bit high. I was at the NY auto show a few months back. Checked the payload sticker of all large/midsize SUVs I saw. Could not find an SUV with more than 1350# of payload. Mid size SUVs mostly had around 1000# of payload, and large SUVs around 1300#. Granted some were fully loaded trims.
I was just at the dealer comparing the payload between an F-150 Platinum and F-250 Platinum Diesel (2016's) and their payload was within 100lbs of each other, ~1600 and ~1700, respectively.

Placed an order for a 2017 F-350 because of this. I expect the 2017 F-250 to gain payload but not enough to cover the 2500-2800 lb payload I require.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:22 AM   #115
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Why comprise payload for "softer suspension" when they have all manner of new air hitches that help soften the connection between the Airstream and pickup?

Also, isn't 90-85% of the the trailer weight supposed to be supported by its own suspension system? If I am correct on the proper wieght distribution between hitch and axles, how does 10-15 % of the trailer wieght harm the trailer?

Regarding the tow vehicle itself, doesn't the "softer" suspension compromise all of the "handling" that we were trying to gain by using a lighter tow vehicle. I can't understand the logic of overloading a vehicle and then expecting to perform better than an under loaded vehicle.

Is it not true that Wally himself said the International Harvester pickup with a 345 V8 and 410 geared rear end was the "best tow vehicle"? Have any of you ever ridden in one? It's not soft.

I can without a doubt tell you the Ram 3500 ride feel is softer than a Kia Optima, a Subaro Forester, and is almost identical to a Jeep Grand Cherokee. My 1991 Dodge rode rough. I had the springs rebuilt and it road softer, I then gutted that susepension and drivetrain and put it is a crew cab of the same body style and it got softer yet. Which brings me to a point not addressed yet. Wheelbase is a considerable factor in the ride feel and handling of a vehicle. It is also a considerable factor keeping a vehicle going in the intended direction.

Some of the observations in contrast to the pickup voting block are not wrong; however, they are dated. Just like a former thread when a member called diesels "stinky." They clearly haven't fired up a current diesel offering, and I don't think a lot of the people who claim that pickups ride rough or don't "handle" have driven one lately; especially the Cadillac like GMs.

Every time I read the post before bed, I toss and turn all night thinking "I should have bought the Hemi Scat Pack Charger" I guess I will have to live with my compromised Ram 3500. Hopefully the Cummins hum can lul me into a sweet state of acceptance.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:32 AM   #116
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Placed an order for a 2017 F-350 because of this. I expect the 2017 F-250 to gain payload but not enough to cover the 2500-2800 lb payload I require.
Congratulations!

Did you pick a diesel or gas?
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:00 AM   #117
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Congratulations!

Did you pick a diesel or gas?

Thanks I went with the diesel, pretty much everything except the sunroof. All the tow technology will be a great supplement and wing man to what I expect to be leisurely travel with no concern about performance.

I already have an overweight 4x4 ambulance that is a wild ride to drive and stop, and do not want that same experience for on road adventures.

I hear the adaptive steering in this thing is great, eliminating a full 2.5 turns of the wheel at low speed maneuvering.

I would have a 2500 Denali but the dealer wouldn't budge off the internet price, even after schooling them on payload and no one knowing what the yellow sticker was for, including the "commercial truck guy" told me that the sticker was wrong and he "doesn't know why its on there."
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:07 AM   #118
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How do you think the comparison would look on real world roads? I see the F250 needs 246 feet to stop from 70, without a trailer. Take 70 feet off that for a good sport utility. I think an F250 can be safe, driven appropriately, but not as safe as a sport utility.

The F250 looks good if you need to carry that much cargo, or tow over 10,000 lbs. My tow vehicle has to serve as daily transport for 75% of the time, so an F250 loses points.

Jeff
If we can't trust a test to transfer to real world then the test is flawed, and maybe that is the case with the skid plate. The slalom numbers for the pickups are pretty solid though.

Fair enough on the daily driver and TV combo. That's why they made SUVs right? Utility vehicle. Like a Utility baseball player they do several things well enough to be serviceable.

Regarding breaking, there is more to stopping than 70-0 distance. The Ford has an engine brake if you buy the diesel. When towing the Ford will stop the trailer easier and the trailer brakes won't be smoked. Also, it will hold a speed down the grade.

Thanks for the conversation folks. I am pulling out to go camping. I am going to quit now before Murphy jumps in and some tragic thing happens with my set up; which is still new enough to go wrong. Time will tell if it is right. Safe driving everyone and have a great weekend!
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Old 07-16-2016, 10:18 AM   #119
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"Hopefully the Cummins hum can lul me into a sweet state of acceptance."

Got to be a dream song there somewhere.

Hear that truck a hummin,
flying around the bend,
got to be a Cummins,
showing off for friends.

Next?
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Old 07-16-2016, 10:31 AM   #120
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Towing capability basics.

We weighed our Airstream today. The total gross weight of AS and TV was 13,560. That's 500 pounds short of my 14,100 pound limit.

The rear axle weight came in at 3980. My GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) for my rear axle is 4200.

My front axle weight came in at 2920. The GAWR for my from axle is 3250.

The AS axle weight came in at 6660.

So it looks like I don't need to run out and buy a new truck. Thank God.



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Old 07-16-2016, 01:41 PM   #121
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...Thanks for the conversation folks. I am pulling out to go camping. I am going to quit now before Murphy jumps in and some tragic thing happens with my set up; which is still new enough to go wrong. Time will tell if it is right. Safe driving everyone and have a great weekend!
Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Excellent info in many of your posts. Enjoy your camping trip!
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:10 PM   #122
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So, even though an AS can get thru the slalom faster than the pickups, what is being missed is what happens to pickups when they lose traction. It's not simply a difference of a few mph.

The pickups roll over.

An AS will skid sideways at speeds where the pickup rolls. It's the truck which initiates the accident, first, and causes it to be worse, second. Life-changing kind of worse.

As referred to above, broken road surfaces are enough to cut those pickup skid pad numbers down. Way down. Same for being wet.

Focus on weight is misdirection. It isn't hard to accommodate. Worry over climbing the Davis Dam grade is hilarious.

So what, if one crawls to the summit? It's an irrelevancy. It says NOTHING about recreational vehicle towing.

And an exhaust brake on a sub 10k trailer isn't helpful in any meaningful way. On a 15-20k trailer, it is.

The only thing being "said" is not only lack of experience, but lack of perspective.

Trailer disc brakes are what would matter if one wants what should be stock Airstream performance.
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Old 07-17-2016, 10:49 PM   #123
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My SUV is a 2010 GMC Yukon Denali. The yellow sticker says 1544 pounds of payload. The vehicle is very well equipped.
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Old 07-18-2016, 10:16 AM   #124
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Trying to do research for my lack of experience. I checked into on roll over crashes.

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Causes

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Fatalities

I have been in a rollover. Yes it was a small pickup on wet roads. It wasn't the pickup's fault; it was the driver's fault and their consumption of alcohol. I was a kid at the time and I lost the arguement that the adult shouldn't drive. 50% of all roll overs include alcohol and overall 90% are the fault of the driver, so that leaves 10% the fault of something else.

I do have a lack of experience. That it why I come to this forum and do research. I have driven nothing but a pickup for my short 16years of legal driving, and I have never rolled one (I tried really hard with my first though) and really plan not to since I am in control of 90% of the situations when rollover occur.

When it comes down to it, I need a pickup to tow my Airstream because when I park that rig I want other toys for my young family like our new favorite kayaks, or our dirt bikes, or my copious amounts of duck and goose decoys.

I disagree on the engine brake it works quite well with a light trailer, and even the unloaded vehicle, to maintain a speed on a decline. It also works really well for slowing to a turn.

Thanks Slowmover for the words of caution. I hope to one day have the experience as you, so I will just slow down with my high center of gravity vehicle when needed to manage the road and driving conditions.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:05 AM   #125
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Trying to do research for my lack of experience. I checked into on roll over crashes.

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...ollover/Causes

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...ver/Fatalities

I have been in a rollover. Yes it was a small pickup on wet roads. It wasn't the pickup's fault; it was the driver's fault and their consumption of alcohol. I was a kid at the time and I lost the arguement that the adult shouldn't drive. 50% of all roll overs include alcohol and overall 90% are the fault of the driver, so that leaves 10% the fault of something else.

I do have a lack of experience. That it why I come to this forum and do research. I have driven nothing but a pickup for my short 16years of legal driving, and I have never rolled one (I tried really hard with my first though) and really plan not to since I am in control of 90% of the situations when rollover occur.

When it comes down to it, I need a pickup to tow my Airstream because when I park that rig I want other toys for my young family like our new favorite kayaks, or our dirt bikes, or my copious amounts of duck and goose decoys.

I disagree on the engine brake it works quite well with a light trailer, and even the unloaded vehicle, to maintain a speed on a decline. It also works really well for slowing to a turn.

Thanks Slowmover for the words of caution. I hope to one day have the experience as you, so I will just slow down with my high center of gravity vehicle when needed to manage the road and driving conditions.
Thanks for sharing the links. You mentioned a couple of important stats. I'll add a couple more:

1) Nearly half of all fatal rollover crashes involve alcohol.

2) Driver behavior (distraction, inattentiveness, speeding, and impaired driving) plays a significant role in rollover crashes.

3) Of the nearly 9.1 million passenger car, SUV, pickup and van crashes in 2010, only 2.1% involved a rollover.

4) The majority of those killed in rollover accidents (69%) were not wearing safety belts.

I always thought that if pickups were as rollover ready as some suggest in this forum, there would be a class action law suit. The stats paint a very different picture though.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:17 PM   #126
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Trying to get a handle with specs vs real world examples vs what people say.

Look at this post <--- click

This shows a sedan pulling what looks like a 30ft'er AS.

How is this possible? I've travelled a bit, never been on a flat only road, at least here in LA area.

I can't imagine this Sedan handling grade both up or down. How would this sedan slow this down, how would this sedan stop this AS in an emergency?

So what does this illustrate? I just don't get how people talk about specs, about weight, power, ratios, etc., and this comes into play.

Please advise.
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