Towing capability basics.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by Thiss

...Thanks for the conversation folks. I am pulling out to go camping. I am going to quit now before Murphy jumps in and some tragic thing happens with my set up; which is still new enough to go wrong. Time will tell if it is right. Safe driving everyone and have a great weekend!

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Excellent info in many of your posts. Enjoy your camping trip!

[slowmover]

So, even though an AS can get thru the slalom faster than the pickups, what is being missed is what happens to pickups when they lose traction. It's not simply a difference of a few mph.

The pickups roll over.

An AS will skid sideways at speeds where the pickup rolls. It's the truck which initiates the accident, first, and causes it to be worse, second. Life-changing kind of worse.

As referred to above, broken road surfaces are enough to cut those pickup skid pad numbers down. Way down. Same for being wet.

Focus on weight is misdirection. It isn't hard to accommodate. Worry over climbing the Davis Dam grade is hilarious.

So what, if one crawls to the summit? It's an irrelevancy. It says NOTHING about recreational vehicle towing.

And an exhaust brake on a sub 10k trailer isn't helpful in any meaningful way. On a 15-20k trailer, it is.

The only thing being "said" is not only lack of experience, but lack of perspective.

Trailer disc brakes are what would matter if one wants what should be stock Airstream performance.

[SSquared]

My SUV is a 2010 GMC Yukon Denali. The yellow sticker says 1544 pounds of payload. The vehicle is very well equipped.

[Thiss]

Trying to do research for my lack of experience. I checked into on roll over crashes.

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Causes

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/Rollover/Fatalities

I have been in a rollover. Yes it was a small pickup on wet roads. It wasn't the pickup's fault; it was the driver's fault and their consumption of alcohol. I was a kid at the time and I lost the arguement that the adult shouldn't drive. 50% of all roll overs include alcohol and overall 90% are the fault of the driver, so that leaves 10% the fault of something else.

I do have a lack of experience. That it why I come to this forum and do research. I have driven nothing but a pickup for my short 16years of legal driving, and I have never rolled one (I tried really hard with my first though) and really plan not to since I am in control of 90% of the situations when rollover occur.

When it comes down to it, I need a pickup to tow my Airstream because when I park that rig I want other toys for my young family like our new favorite kayaks, or our dirt bikes, or my copious amounts of duck and goose decoys.

I disagree on the engine brake it works quite well with a light trailer, and even the unloaded vehicle, to maintain a speed on a decline. It also works really well for slowing to a turn.

Thanks Slowmover for the words of caution. I hope to one day have the experience as you, so I will just slow down with my high center of gravity vehicle when needed to manage the road and driving conditions.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by Thiss

Trying to do research for my lack of experience. I checked into on roll over crashes.

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...ollover/Causes

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shop...ver/Fatalities

I have been in a rollover. Yes it was a small pickup on wet roads. It wasn't the pickup's fault; it was the driver's fault and their consumption of alcohol. I was a kid at the time and I lost the arguement that the adult shouldn't drive. 50% of all roll overs include alcohol and overall 90% are the fault of the driver, so that leaves 10% the fault of something else.

I do have a lack of experience. That it why I come to this forum and do research. I have driven nothing but a pickup for my short 16years of legal driving, and I have never rolled one (I tried really hard with my first though) and really plan not to since I am in control of 90% of the situations when rollover occur.

When it comes down to it, I need a pickup to tow my Airstream because when I park that rig I want other toys for my young family like our new favorite kayaks, or our dirt bikes, or my copious amounts of duck and goose decoys.

I disagree on the engine brake it works quite well with a light trailer, and even the unloaded vehicle, to maintain a speed on a decline. It also works really well for slowing to a turn.

Thanks Slowmover for the words of caution. I hope to one day have the experience as you, so I will just slow down with my high center of gravity vehicle when needed to manage the road and driving conditions.

Thanks for sharing the links. You mentioned a couple of important stats. I'll add a couple more:

1) Nearly half of all fatal rollover crashes involve alcohol.

2) Driver behavior (distraction, inattentiveness, speeding, and impaired driving) plays a significant role in rollover crashes.

3) Of the nearly 9.1 million passenger car, SUV, pickup and van crashes in 2010, only 2.1% involved a rollover.

4) The majority of those killed in rollover accidents (69%) were not wearing safety belts.

I always thought that if pickups were as rollover ready as some suggest in this forum, there would be a class action law suit. The stats paint a very different picture though.

[cazual6]

Trying to get a handle with specs vs real world examples vs what people say.

Look at this post <--- click

This shows a sedan pulling what looks like a 30ft'er AS.

How is this possible? I've travelled a bit, never been on a flat only road, at least here in LA area.

I can't imagine this Sedan handling grade both up or down. How would this sedan slow this down, how would this sedan stop this AS in an emergency?

So what does this illustrate? I just don't get how people talk about specs, about weight, power, ratios, etc., and this comes into play.

Please advise.

[rmkrum]

Illustrated the usual marketing stupidity, IMHO.

Same category as a mass-produced vehicle making a "personal statement".

Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums

[DPRoberts]

Fun fact: according to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, the death rate when driving an RV is 0.44 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles.

The death rate for all US vehicles (i.e. regular cars) is 1.48 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles.

In other words, being in an RV is about three times safer than being in a regular car.

Looking at it another way, there's roughly one death in an RV per 200 million vehicle miles. So, if the average RVer drove 10,000 miles per year (which may be a high estimate), then one in 20,000 of them would be killed in an accident.

If you only drive 1,000 miles per year, your odds of being killed are one in 200,000 - which is almost exactly the same as your odds of being killed by falling down a set of stairs. Funny, I don't see any raging arguments on step-related safety...

Source: Recreational Vehicle RV Accident Facts


I'm beginning to think that everyone's generalized worries about towing safety - cars and SUVs are too small, 3/4 ton trucks are too big, etc. - are all way overblown.

[dkottum]

Rather than searching the internet for facts to match our thoughts at the time (which is going on here), when we bought our first Airstream we talked to some Airstreamers and trailer campers about their own experience.

Varied experiencess that came down to many vehicles used successfully. Those who needed a good daily driver often choose lighter duty tow vehicles, those who wanted to carry heavy truck loads and the trailer choose heavier duty trucks.

There was no correlation between accidents and tow vehicle used, most trailer campers have learned through experience that a margin of safety is best achieved with slowing down for towing conditions. Some fifth wheel campers with big trucks had been in trouble, even pushed off the road by high winds. The only Airstreamer we met who actually rolled their camper due to high winds, downhill in the mountains was an F250/Airstream 28 combination.

We have had two Airstreams and three half-ton trucks. The best thing we did for the stability and comfort of our Airstream towing was the installation of a Hensley/ProPride style hitch, completely different experience in gusting wind and semi traffic.

The discussion centered on tow vehicle is missing the point without discussion of the entire combination, trailer and hitch setup and tow vehicle.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Trying to get a handle with specs vs real world examples vs what people say.

Look at this post <--- click

This shows a sedan pulling what looks like a 30ft'er AS.

How is this possible?

Looks like a good setup. Not if you want to carry two generators and a load of firewood, or some variant of that, but with a light load in the tow vehicle, it seems like a great starting point.

The SHO uses the same Ecoboost 3.5 as the F150, tuned slightly differently. 365 hp. The engine cooling is designed for that power output. The SHO model also has more coolers (engine oil, AWD transfer case) because these models can see track use sometimes. Optional lower (higher numerically) axle ratio. The base vehicle weighs less than a comparable (super crew, 4wd) F150, so it has more power for pulling. It has performance brakes, which the stopping distances show.

That people are surprised by this being a very competent tow vehicle just shows how far we have gone down the "must have a truck" road.

I would rather have some form of wagon or SUV, for cargo flexibility, myself.

Jeff

[DonDiego]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Trying to get a handle with specs vs real world examples vs what people say.

Look at this post <--- click

This shows a sedan pulling what looks like a 30ft'er AS.

How is this possible? I've travelled a bit, never been on a flat only road, at least here in LA area.

I can't imagine this Sedan handling grade both up or down. How would this sedan slow this down, how would this sedan stop this AS in an emergency?

So what does this illustrate? I just don't get how people talk about specs, about weight, power, ratios, etc., and this comes into play.

Please advise.

The first and easy question you asked it about 'how it can slow down'. It is often thought that the TV must slow down the AS. Actually, the brakes on the AS can help slow down the TV. The AS should stop itself. Many on this forum will say, 'but what if the AS brakes fail". To me that is the same as, 'what if the TV brakes fail". There are a lot of 'What ifs".

As far as power to tow, I believe others have addressed that it has got plenty of power/torque. It is not really about how much it has, but the ratio of available forward thrust to weight. CanAm RV/Andy Thomson is the expert on that analysis.
As many have noted, braking, torque/HP and load volume are factors to consider. But maneuverability, especially in an emergency is in my opinion a major factor in a tow vehicle. And I believe a car or mini van excels in this area, over the trucks.

[rostam]

Originally Posted by DonDiego

... Actually, the brakes on the AS can help slow down the TV. The AS should stop itself....

I hear this a lot on this forum. Do you have any data to support this? Say, 60 to 0 stopping distances for TV solo vs TV with trailer, where the stopping distance is the same or less with trailer? Seems counter intuitive to me.

I have a GL 350. It has huge brakes, but the stopping distance with trailer attached is noticeably more (BTW, the trailer brakes were recently serviced and are in great shape). I know some people have switched to disc brakes and still say the combo does not stop on a dime.

Not to pick on you, but this is one of (at least a dozen) popular statements I've read in this forum which does not make any sense to me.

[boondockdad]

Something conspicuously absent in this ongoing "I use a ridiculously under-rated sedan to tow and it's awesome because it won't roll over like a top-heavy SUV and it's softer on my delicate Airstream semi-monocoque frame" argument is the impact this type of vehicle use has on its warranty.

No way MMWA 1975 covers this. Not in my experience with dealers and warranty work.

http://www.edmunds.com/auto-warranty...-warranty.html

Power:weight ratio is only part of the equation. That power goes thru lots of components between the flywheel and where the rubber hits the road. Chevy de-tuned the 496ci big-block in my old 'Burb because folks were roasting the very heavy-duty 4L80E transmission.

Sorry, but I don't buy the "it's all marketing to sell vehicles" argument.
Vehicles have operating limits.
The ratings are very clear.
I'm all for pushing the envelope, but when you're exceeding max limits by 300-400%, you're asking for all kinds of trouble.

[gator.bigfoot]

Originally Posted by cazual6

Trying to get a handle with specs vs real world examples vs what people say.

Look at this post <--- click

This shows a sedan pulling what looks like a 30ft'er AS.

How is this possible? I've travelled a bit, never been on a flat only road, at least here in LA area.

I can't imagine this Sedan handling grade both up or down. How would this sedan slow this down, how would this sedan stop this AS in an emergency?

So what does this illustrate? I just don't get how people talk about specs, about weight, power, ratios, etc., and this comes into play.

Please advise.

I have personally test driven this combination. And it performs very well. Braking and acceleration are not an issue and neither is handling.

If you have any doubts take a trip to CanAm and they have several vehicles for you to test drive with a good selection of trailers. Believing is driving it.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by DonDiego

The first and easy question you asked it about 'how it can slow down'. It is often thought that the TV must slow down the AS. Actually, the brakes on the AS can help slow down the TV. The AS should stop itself. Many on this forum will say, 'but what if the AS brakes fail". To me that is the same as, 'what if the TV brakes fail". There are a lot of 'What ifs".

I agree with you, based on our experience.

Our Airstream has excellent brakes. I haven't tried to stop the combination from higher speed, but the trailer brakes will stop itself and our truck at lower speeds. Easily. How the Airstream brakes do with a heavy duty pickup weighing 2,000 lbs more plus another 1,000 lbs of additional payload I don't know.

That was a consideration when we chose our new tow vehicle, less overall weight is easier to stop, accelerate and change direction suddenly if we have to. The lower that weight the better, the wider the suspension attachment to the body the better.

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I agree with you, based on our experience.

Our Airstream has excellent brakes. I haven't tried to stop the combination from higher speed, but the trailer brakes will stop itself and our truck at lower speeds. Easily. How the Airstream brakes do with a heavy duty pickup weighing 2,000 lbs more plus another 1,000 lbs of additional payload I don't know.

That was a consideration when we chose our new tow vehicle, less overall weight is easier to stop, accelerate and change direction suddenly if we have to. The lower that weight the better, the wider the suspension attachment to the body the better.

I "Think" our trailer brakes are ok, but never really been sure. Even without the trailer brakes operating, I can stop the combination reasonably quickly with the truck brakes which are pretty substantial, but with the trailer connected and its brakes operating, I don't really notice a huge difference.

They do work. If I manually apply the trailer brakes with the truck coasting, the braking effect is evident, however not as substantial as I would have expected even though I generally have the brakes set to max gain.

I'm pretty sure they are working as well as can be expected - I put all new brake assemblies on last winter (ie complete new backing plates and complete assemblies.)

However with my last (SOB trailer) I could very easily lock up the trailer wheels by applying too much gain - not so with the AS.

Could be due to the fact however that the last trailer had a dry weight of around 3500# and the AS is 7400# dry.

Wondering what other folks find with the effectiveness of their brakes?(Drum type).

The only other thing I can think to try is to replace the drums. When I replaced the rest of the brakes, I did not change the drums as they looked fine. No indication that they are grease contaminated. Maybe they are glazed?


Brian.

[PaulnGina]

Brian, when I replaced the 6 complete assemblies on our Avion (which weighs similar to your AS), I adjusted the assemblies as close as possible without creating noticible drag. I cannot skid the wheels of the Avion other than on loose gravel, but on pavement the stopping power is substantial...... And I'm quite happy with that.


PaulnGina
1987 Avion 34W
1995 Ford F250 7.3L PowerStroke

Blessed and highly favored

[DonDiego]

Brian, on our 25FB, if I manually apply the trailer brakes, it will come to a screeching stop. I am wondering if it might not be your brake controller. I do know there are big differences in controllers. If the trailer brakes (when manually applied) won't stop the TV & trailer, I believe something is wrong.